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Author	Topic: Dreams can become reality
Bill Hankey Member Posts: 1680 From: Pittsfield, MA, USA Registered: APR 2001	posted 22 August 2001 06:47 PM My hopes for conquering the 3rd string problematic breakage has been dealt with satisfactoriiy. It has been viewed by two forum members, who were visiting at the time. It resembles the number 7, with another short 1/4 " piece pointing in the direction of the floor. I will be posting pictures of the invention in a week or ten days. The device is mounted at the top of the 3rd string changer. I have experienced no breakage for a period of one month. Bill Hankey [This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 23 August 2001 at 12:02 AM.]
chas smith Member Posts: 3168 From: Encino, CA, USA Registered: FEB 2001	posted 22 August 2001 09:09 PM Yankee ingenuity
Bill Hatcher Member Posts: 2263 From: Atlanta Ga. USA Registered: NOV 98	posted 22 August 2001 10:42 PM Make that "Hankey" ingenuity.
Bill Hankey Member Posts: 1680 From: Pittsfield, MA, USA Registered: APR 2001	posted 23 August 2001 01:08 AM Proficient determination will literally reveal options that are not dancing before us, like a ballerina, but remain hidden behind the veritable curtain of thought. Mechanical problems are due to the oversight of countless options, which would ultimately reveal the much sought after solutions. Bill [This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 23 August 2001 at 03:19 AM.] [This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 23 August 2001 at 04:37 AM.]
Johan Jansen Member Posts: 2207 From: Europe Registered:	posted 23 August 2001 04:38 AM I don't understand these messages at all. What are you trying to say, did you invent a solution for breaking 3rd strings? Congrats, please inform us! Please, don't try to edit so much in your messages that they become private conversations.. Thanks, JJ edited for spelling [This message was edited by Johan Jansen on 23 August 2001 at 04:39 AM.]
Bill Fall Member Posts: 188 From: Boston, MA, USA Registered: JUL 2001	posted 23 August 2001 05:45 AM Bill, I hope you're coming to Frank Caruso's steel thing in October. I wanna see that string-saving sucker! But I also want to hear it; any tonal changes?
Bill Hankey Member Posts: 1680 From: Pittsfield, MA, USA Registered: APR 2001	posted 23 August 2001 06:11 AM JJ, The "Lucky 7" is made of aluminum, and its weight is negligible, a mere fraction of an ounce. Anyone who is handy with tools, could produce a copy in just minutes. My first made is fastened by a tiny machine screw, and it would be quite simple to produce a clipped on version. There really is nothing more to define about the little anti- string popper. Simply put, it is made from 3/32" thickness aluminum, a trifle under 1" by 1" channel stock. The stock is easy to obtain from many sources. Lock the aluminum channel in a vise, use wood or leather between the jaws and the aluminum. Hacksaw a 1/4" wide cut. From that piece, saw off one side allowing a full 1/4" to remain opposite the 1" side. It should appear as a 7, the only difference is that there is no curvature. All that remains is the drilling of two small holes where the string passes through. Attaching the little device requires a predetermined amount of care, which is not difficult, although attentiveness is necessary to achieve the desired end result. This device is designed for steel guitars that will allow its simple application. Bill H. [This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 24 August 2001 at 01:45 AM.]
Bill Crook Member Posts: 1820 From: Goodlettsville, TN , Spending my kid's inheritance Registered:	posted 23 August 2001 06:43 AM Wow...... A photo of this wonder should make all of us most happy...... If you e-mail me such, I will see that it gets on the forumn !!!
Bill Hankey Member Posts: 1680 From: Pittsfield, MA, USA Registered: APR 2001	posted 23 August 2001 08:30 AM Bill Fall, Thank you, and yes I want to visit your area again. I've met with some friendly musicians at Frank Caruso's steel guitar shows. Bill H.
Bill Hankey Member Posts: 1680 From: Pittsfield, MA, USA Registered: APR 2001	posted 23 August 2001 08:35 AM Bill C., Your kind offer is appreciated. If I experience an difficulties posting photos, it would be very helpful to be able to call on you. Bill H.
Donny Hinson Member Posts: 9192 From: Balto., Md. U.S.A. Registered: FEB 99	posted 23 August 2001 08:39 AM Bill, does this little device eliminate the bending of the string (at the changer) that occurs when a pedal is activated? Or, doe it just move the bending point away from the apex of the changer (where the string contacts the top of the finger)? I am quite curious.
Chris Schlotzhauer Member Posts: 1217 From: Colleyville, Tx. USA Registered: JAN 99	posted 23 August 2001 08:42 AM Huh? Is this English? Just change that sumbitch every third gig or so.
Gene Jones Member Posts: 5796 From: Oklahoma City, OK USA Registered: NOV 2000	posted 23 August 2001 09:37 AM Chris's suggestion is the only thing I ever found that worked. I HOPE your invention does!
Jerry Roller Member Posts: 3906 From: Van Buren, Arkansas USA Registered: APR 99	posted 23 August 2001 09:41 AM I envision a claw hammer with the claws curved and one with the claws almost straight. It sounds to me that this devise changes from a curved to an almost staight pull. Is that the idea behind it? I don't mean anything by using something as crude as a hammer but I hope my point is understood. Aparantly this devise moves the mounting point of the string up near the top of the finger roller and back so as to let the twist not be on the top of the roller. Is this close? If so, I wonder if lack of down pressure against the roller would hurt the tone. Come to think of it I am against any kind of pressure against a Roller!! It just occured to me I have been reading too much of that Siezemore stuff. Jerry [This message was edited by Jerry Roller on 23 August 2001 at 09:43 AM.] [This message was edited by Jerry Roller on 23 August 2001 at 09:44 AM.]
Bill Hankey Member Posts: 1680 From: Pittsfield, MA, USA Registered: APR 2001	posted 23 August 2001 10:15 AM Donny H., Thanks for your interest. The string passes over the apex of the changer, and angles down slightly, just enough to maintain tonal stability, and then enters the first aperture (hole) of the "Lucky 7",leveling off as it passes through the second opening. The scheme is to reduce the punishment of the .011 or the .010 to .012 strings by allowing them to be brought up a semitone minus the mechanical trauma. The view would be from the left, gunsighting the changer bridge. Bill H.
Bill Hankey Member Posts: 1680 From: Pittsfield, MA, USA Registered: APR 2001	posted 24 August 2001 02:20 AM Jerry Roller, I enjoyed your reply. It surprised me to read how you grasped the basic idea with such ease. When you wrote about the twist of the string, my eyebrows did a double take. That is one of the small differences featured in the "Lucky 7". It allows the windings to remain in a straight line, thus avoiding any further damage to the string. In the future, a tiny but stiff compression spring may become an integral part of the "Lucky 7". Bill H. [This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 24 August 2001 at 02:33 AM.]
Larry Bell Member Posts: 4116 From: Englewood, Florida Registered:	posted 24 August 2001 09:53 AM Bill, One month is not a long enough experiment, in my opinion. If you get TWO months out of an 011 on a guitar with a consistent history of problems with string breakage, I'll be more interested. Two more questions: * How does it effect the tone? * Does using the device increase the time (e.g., on the bandstand) to change a string? ------------------ Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page 2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Emmons D-10 9x9, 1971 Dobro
Bill Hankey Member Posts: 1680 From: Pittsfield, MA, USA Registered: APR 2001	posted 24 August 2001 02:16 PM Larry Bell, I agree that the "Lucky 7" has not gone through a test period of time. Just when you feel confident that nothing can go wrong, some unexpected problem emerges and you find yourself back to day one. That is the negative side. The positive side is that I may have stumbled onto something worthwhile. The test of time will reveal its worthiness. Aluminum is used by many builders of steel guitars, so the tonal differences should not be a problem. There is nothing difficult involved in changing the string. Bill H.
Bobby Lee Sysop Posts: 14849 From: Cloverdale, North California, USA Registered:	posted 24 August 2001 06:51 PM I don't get it from your description, Bill. Is it similar to the Williams "Stress-Less String Levers"? ------------------ Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (E7, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic) Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)
Bill Hankey Member Posts: 1680 From: Pittsfield, MA, USA Registered: APR 2001	posted 24 August 2001 11:08 PM Bobby Lee, Apparently the Williams changer was a change for cosmetic reasons, rather than a change for a flawed design.The key to that assumption is the fact that most of the E9 strings will sustain a wear out period, and it becomes necessary to replace them as they lose tonal quality and the their shiny tops signal that it's time to retire their services. As for any similarities in the functioning, I will scrutinize a Williams steel soon to observe its design at close range. The photo clearly illustrates that the stress level has been lessened near the windings. The bottom line is that the "Lucky 7" is designed to go directly to the flawed design, and remove the stress trauma where it is needed; at the 3rd string changer. Bill H.
Bobby Lee Sysop Posts: 14849 From: Cloverdale, North California, USA Registered:	posted 25 August 2001 12:00 AM I've yet to break a string on my Williams. The changer fingers are designed to put much less stress on all of the strings, not just the 3rd string. I don't think that "cosmetics" had anything to do with the design.
Bill Hankey Member Posts: 1680 From: Pittsfield, MA, USA Registered: APR 2001	posted 25 August 2001 04:08 AM Bobby Lee, It is difficult to add credence to my assertiveness, in regard to cosmetics, even though most marketplaces in our land have succumbed, and entered into the practice of judging values by the external beauty of the product. These remarks are positively not directed at the Williams steel guitar. The truth is that I would be delighted to own one. It would be quite simple to determine whether or not, cosmetics are one of the most important considerations when steel guitar builders design their instruments. Bobby, as a skillful, and experienced debater, wouldn't you agree that a simple yes or no coming from the lips of a manufacturer would suffice to satisfy the inquiry? Steel guitars are like people in many ways. Some lack the essentials to be called beautiful, and others glisten with irresistible beauty. In the final analysis, it is how they bring forth their inner beauty through the magic of sound. Bill H.
Johan Jansen Member Posts: 2207 From: Europe Registered:	posted 25 August 2001 04:17 AM must be the food, or someting in the water... JJ
Paul Graupp Member Posts: 3199 From: Macon Ga USA Registered: JAN 2001	posted 25 August 2001 06:51 AM Johan: I don't know if it's the food or the water but something here has caught my attention. And I can't say what it is..... I'm trying to figure out what's real and what is an exceptional command of the King's english. I keep thinking there must be a barb in here somewhere but I can't find any evidence to support my suspicions. Maybe I should just read some more...... Regards, Paul
BobbeSeymour Member Posts: 5664 From: Hendersonville TN USA Registered: JAN 2001	posted 25 August 2001 08:58 AM Look Chas,Paul,Bud,Bob,------They are reinventing the Bigsby! 53 years, guess its about time. It's the Bending over the radius that breaks the string, not where you hook on to it. That's why Donny Hinson asked that question, along with a couple other guys. We just had a Zum guitar come in with this device on it, (ask Bruce) and it didn't extend the string life at all in our testing. The pressure of the string on the cam (roller, not to be confused with Jerry roller), has nothing to do with string life, Its the continual bending that causes metal fatigue and lets the string depart for parts unknown. The radius of the finger has a lot to do with string life, however it also has to do with tone. A big curving radius will break few if any strings, but will "sitar" and produce a genrally poor tone quality. Hence, the trade off, tone or breakage. HOWEVER------- There is a way to have both------ Bill Hanky, Call me and the method is yours! Bobbe
Bobby Lee Sysop Posts: 14849 From: Cloverdale, North California, USA Registered:	posted 25 August 2001 09:09 AM The Williams fingers do look cool, but I'm sure that their unique shape is designed to minimized string breakage. The design is patented for that purpose. The fact that it works is undisputed. My question as to whether your "Lucky 7" is similar to the Williams invention remains unanswered. The fact that you are addressing the problem on only one string is not a significant difference in my opinion. It's certainly possible to mix "Stress-Less" fingers with regular fingers in a Williams changer - I've seen it done! ------------------ Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (E7, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic) Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)
Jeff A. Smith Member Posts: 807 From: Angola,Ind. U.S.A. Registered: FEB 2001	posted 25 August 2001 09:59 AM With all respect for your creativity, Bill, it does sometimes seem that you are less interested in truth and solutions than whose ideas they are. You didn't seem to be interested in acknowledging the Anapeg- Excel idea, and you seem to be diverting into obfuscation again here. Bobby doesn't care about debating, he's just interested in a scientific, objective discussion. The idea of a quick fix attachment for the most problematic string on existing changers isn't a bad one to me. [This message was edited by Jeff A. Smith on 25 August 2001 at 10:40 AM.]
Bill Hankey Member Posts: 1680 From: Pittsfield, MA, USA Registered: APR 2001	posted 25 August 2001 10:20 AM Bobby Lee, Thanks Bobby for your responses. The answer to your question is as follows. My " Lucky 7 " is in the adapter category. The Williams' Steel design is one unitized manufactured part, or parts. There is no reason to believe that I would look for someone elses creativity to guide me. Armed with the knowledge that a problem does exist, I've gone about seeking an alternative method to prevent the thin treble strings from breaking at different intervals. The "Lucky 7" can be quickly installed on any of the troublesome strings that are pulled to maximum pitch, such as, the 4th, 5th, 8th, and 10th. Since the 3rd is the most notorious of the group, harnessing its unpredictable breaking tendencies, is where I've concentrated my energy. I wanted to mention that all references made in regard to durability of the 3rd string, should be attested to, only if a player plays solely on a single 10 string steel with the E 9th chromatic tuning. There is an existing difference; otherwise. Bill H.
Dennis Detweiler Member Posts: 1700 From: Solon, Iowa, US Registered: DEC 98	posted 25 August 2001 10:25 AM As Bobby said..."the radius" If anyone ever owned the earlier Baldwin crossover model ShoBuds...they had a longer radius pulling finger which resulted in a cam shaped (sitar looking) top. The 3rds seldom broke. Perhaps a changer system at both ends of the guitar with the pull being made from both ends, thus distributing the bend at both ends of the string? Hmmm! Sounds longer and heavier too! Dennis
Jeff A. Smith Member Posts: 807 From: Angola,Ind. U.S.A. Registered: FEB 2001	posted 25 August 2001 10:56 AM Bill, if your statement about there being no reason to suspect you of idea plagiarism was even partially directed at my above comment, the idea presents itself that you are aware that it was not my intent to suggest that you "lifted" this idea or any other. I only respond to keep from being misrepresented.
Bill Hankey Member Posts: 1680 From: Pittsfield, MA, USA Registered: APR 2001	posted 25 August 2001 11:35 AM Jeff Smith, I write slowly, and there wouldn't have been enough time to respond to the input that you submitted. Please try to understand that I'm fond of lively debates, and there is nothing at all presumptive in my nature. My message was in response to Bobby's inquiry. I fully intended to respond to your input, as I always do whenever questions are raised. Thank you for following along, and contributing to the post. Bill H.
richard burton Member Posts: 1337 From: Britain Registered: JAN 2001	posted 25 August 2001 12:16 PM I'm not sure it's a good idea to extend string life by either modifying the changer finger or adding pieces on to the finger. Remember, strings rapidly lose their brightness and tone ,long before they break.
Jeff A. Smith Member Posts: 807 From: Angola,Ind. U.S.A. Registered: FEB 2001	posted 25 August 2001 02:40 PM Well, like most people I suspect, the issue for me is the tone. If the Williams changer doesn't adversely effect it, why not use it, or something similar? I harbour no delusions of changer design understanding, but I know that builders in the past have been concerned with the tonal effect of every detail of changer design. I guess I have a little skepticism, especially if the finger isn't one solid unit, like I assume would be the case with an add-on. I want the tone to be there when I need it, but I don't mind the idea of being able to play around the house on older strings for longer periods, without string breakage. I imagine a number of people would be interested in a device they could cheaply put on really problematic strings, even if it did effect the tone a little. The important thing would be how quickly they could get it on and off. Fortunately for me, my MSA has done very well with slowly tightened SIT strings so far, so I don't myself feel I need to do anything yet. [This message was edited by Jeff A. Smith on 25 August 2001 at 03:15 PM.]
Fred Jack Member Posts: 832 From: Bay City Texas Registered: SEP 2000	posted 25 August 2001 03:28 PM I think the last .011 cost me about fifty cents!!!! fred
BobbeSeymour Member Posts: 5664 From: Hendersonville TN USA Registered: JAN 2001	posted 25 August 2001 04:03 PM I give up!
DaveCarr Member Posts: 43 From: Leeds U.K. Registered: APR 99	posted 25 August 2001 06:12 PM Has anyone experimented with Teflon coatings on changer fingers? I got some replacement bridge pieces for a Fender Strat which were Teflon coated about 7 or 8 years ago (?)(after a history of breaking strings on gigs), and I never suffered a string breakage after that on that guitar, ever. I always changed a set for tone reasons, and never had to worry about breaking the "thin" strings when pulling notes. The difference was very dramatic. The Teflon provides a lubricating medium at the point of most stress. I know that the mechanics are different, but there are similarities (my strings on the Strat always broke at the bridge). Dave.
Bobby Lee Sysop Posts: 14849 From: Cloverdale, North California, USA Registered:	posted 25 August 2001 07:15 PM Richard wrote: quote: Remember, strings rapidly lose their brightness and tone, long before they break. That's a very good point. I don't remember ever breaking a string that wasn't already dead.
chas smith Member Posts: 3168 From: Encino, CA, USA Registered: FEB 2001	posted 25 August 2001 07:33 PM quote: I give up! Don't give up yet, I agree with you. And yesterday I broke the G and the E strings on the S-10 Bigsby due to an irregularity on each finger. quote: The device is mounted at the top of the 3rd string changer. I would be curious about the tone and such because it's another coupling between the string and the axle and the body of the guitar. [This message was edited by chas smith on 25 August 2001 at 07:36 PM.]
Steve Feldman Member Posts: 2983 From: Millbury, MA USA Registered: DEC 99	posted 25 August 2001 08:31 PM I used to walk to work, but lately I started bringing my lunch....
Lee Baucum Member Posts: 3201 From: McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) - The Final Frontier Registered: APR 99	posted 25 August 2001 10:03 PM Me too Steve. Me too. Or, is it "I also"? ------------------ Lee, from South Texas

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