Steel Guitar Strings
Strings & instruction for lap steel, Hawaiian & pedal steel guitars
http://SteelGuitarShopper.com
Ray Price Shuffles
Classic country shuffle styles for Band-in-a-Box, by BIAB guru Jim Baron.
http://steelguitarmusic.com

This Forum is CLOSED.
Go to bb.steelguitarforum.com to read and post new messages.


  The Steel Guitar Forum
  Music
  Taking duets with the dead too far (Page 1)

Post New Topic  
your profile | join | preferences | help | search


This topic is 2 pages long:   1  2 
next newest topic | next oldest topic
Author Topic:   Taking duets with the dead too far
Janice Brooks
Moderator

From: Pleasant Gap Pa

posted 03 June 2004 05:11 AM     profile     
Anita Cochran's debut single does Natalie and Nat King Cole one
> better. She sings with the late Conway Twitty, on a song he never
> recorded. Cochran's spokeswoman says "(I Wanna Hear) A Cheatin'
> Song" is the first recording ever to create an all-new performance
> from an artist who's passed on.
>
> Twitty's vocal contribution to Cochran's original tune was
> painstakingly assembled from words and phrases from tracks he did
> record. Cochran's spokeswoman says the project took more than eight
> months to piece together.
>
> The timing of the record's release is as poignant as hearing Twitty
> sing new material. The song will be shipped to radio next Monday,
> two days after the anniversary of Twitty's death on June fifth of
> 1993.
>
> Cochran's debut single, "(I Wanna Hear) A Cheatin' Song," is the
> first from her upcoming album, "God Created Woman."
>
Coverage coming in USA Today
Bill Llewellyn
Member

From: San Jose, CA

posted 03 June 2004 06:27 AM     profile     
That reminds me of the Steve Martin movie, Dead Men Don't Wear Plaid, where he co-stars with the then late Humphrey Bogart who appeared in snippets and, I think, had voice-overs done for him to make the dialog fit.

This kind of thing will increase in frequency, I think. Just like they can now generate completely digital characters in movies like the Star Wars series and Lord of the Rings, they will soon be able to place deceased actors in movies (convincingly!) by digitally recreating them. Completely synthesizing a voice, not just pasting together snippets, will also come.

Then the debating will begin as to who owns the rights to a deceased individual's persona. Who should get paid for their "acting" or "singing"? Should their family or estate get some kind of stipend...?

------------------
Bill, steelin' since '99 | Steel page | My music | Steelers' birthdays | Over 50?

Jim Cohen
Member

From: Philadelphia, PA

posted 03 June 2004 06:59 AM     profile     
One thing's for certain: BMI will be there, with its hand outstretched...
Theresa Galbraith
Member

From: Goodlettsville,Tn. USA

posted 03 June 2004 07:03 AM     profile     
Wow! I'm anxious to hear it, hope Anita used steel.
Tim Whitlock
Member

From: Arvada, CO, USA

posted 03 June 2004 07:10 AM     profile     
Have they no shame? This is just plain wrong!
Jerry Hayes
Member

From: Virginia Beach, Va.

posted 03 June 2004 07:32 AM     profile     
They've been doing this for a long time. Remember the Deborah Allen duet with Jim Reeves on "Oh How I Miss You Tonight". It was really a great cut. That was out before I left California in '85. Can't wait to hear this one....JH

By the way Janice, that's not her debut single. Remember the big record she had with Steve Wariner. It was a single off her first album. She's also one helluva lead guitar picker who can hold her own with the big boys....JH
------------------
Livin' in the Past and the Future with a 12 string Mooney Universal tuning.

[This message was edited by Jerry Hayes on 03 June 2004 at 07:34 AM.]

Hook Moore
Member

From: South Charleston,West Virginia

posted 03 June 2004 07:39 AM     profile     
Its a great idea, before long we will not need to find pretty people to do music videos either. Just completely create them from computer, image and audio. Think of the money record companys will be able to save
Hook

------------------
HookMoore.com

Andy Volk
Member

From: Boston, MA

posted 03 June 2004 07:43 AM     profile     
Kenny G did this a few years ago with a Louis Armstrong record and inspired the ire of Pat Metheny, among others.
http://www.jazzguitar.com/features/kennyg.html

Gee ... think of the possibilities ...
Bruce Springsteen and ... Alfalfa
Sheryl Crowe and ... Rudy Valee
Seal and ... Ritchie Valens
Whitney houston and ... Ethel Merman (a dueling rendition of "I will always love you" and "There's No Business Like show Business".

There's no such thing as good taste when there's a buck to be made.

[This message was edited by Andy Volk on 03 June 2004 at 07:46 AM.]

Tim Whitlock
Member

From: Arvada, CO, USA

posted 03 June 2004 08:16 AM     profile     
Yes, presumptuous artists such as Hank Jr, Natalie Cole and Deborah Allen have been indulgently overdubbing their voices onto the works of the deceased for years. I find that practice questionable, distasteful and disrespectful, in itself.

This, however is something entirely new and sinister. Taking a dead man's voice, digitalizing it and creating a completely new work is immoral, souless, highly offensive and disrespectful to the artist, in my point of view. How anyone could find this sort of fakery entertaining is beyond me. What gives them the right to do this? The almighty dollar and enough mindless folks who will swallow whatever repugnant "new" high-tech garbage is shoved down their throats, IMHO.

Donny Hinson
Member

From: Balto., Md. U.S.A.

posted 03 June 2004 08:40 AM     profile     
Bill, if you liked that Steve Martin movie, get a copy of the movie "The Man With Bogart's Face". Robert Sacchi plays Bogart better than Bogey himself!
Janice Brooks
Moderator

From: Pleasant Gap Pa

posted 03 June 2004 09:20 AM     profile     
In the case of Hank Williams Jr, the world had not heard There's A Tear In My Beer by
Hank Sr. The only doctoring was video so I
approve.

Natalie Cole adapted her vocals to Nat's so I approve.

However in this case I think it goes too far
and it's a wonder Conways family did or possibly could not object.

------------------
Janice "Busgal" Brooks
ICQ 44729047

Walter Stettner
Member

From: Vienna, Austria

posted 03 June 2004 09:35 AM     profile     
The trick isn't all new, although with todays technics they can do by far more (digitally!) than 25 years ago. I remember the Jim Reeves/Patsy Cline duet that appeared on some albums around 1980 ("Have You Ever Been Lonely"). They called it a technical masterpiece back then. Technical masterpiece? Probably, but musically worthless.

This new thing is simply disgusting to me and I sure hope it will not create another "goldrush" in music business. I don't want to listen to "new" material of Waylon, Tammy, Faron and the others who have already left us.

I refuse to buy any record with tracks like that on it. Unfortunately that's as much as I can do.

Kind Regards, Walter
www.austriansteelguitar.at.tf

------------------

[This message was edited by Walter Stettner on 03 June 2004 at 09:37 AM.]

Ben Slaughter
Member

From: Madera, California

posted 03 June 2004 09:37 AM     profile     
Anita's been around for a while. She did have that hit with Steve Warner, and released about 2 albums. I mixed sound for a show she did in Fresno probably 3 years ago, at the zoo of all places. She must have signed up with a new record company cause she lost her deal.

She did play lead guitar pretty well. No steel, couple guitars and keys.

------------------
Ben
Zum D10, NV400, POD, G&L Guitars, etc, etc.

David Mason
Member

From: Cambridge, MD, USA

posted 03 June 2004 07:11 PM     profile     
That Duane Allman/Jimi Hendrix jam should be really hot....
pix1
Member

From: WESCOSVILLE,PA,U.S.A.

posted 03 June 2004 07:29 PM     profile     
Piecing together words from hundreds of songs to make 1 or 2 verses to a new song that Conway was never even alive to hear? (Insert Twilight Zone Music Here). That rates right up there with human cloning and Stephen Hawking's mechanical conversations!

Robbie Bossert

Janice Brooks
Moderator

From: Pleasant Gap Pa

posted 03 June 2004 07:46 PM     profile     
And it looks like the family approves ??!!!!!
Jennings Ward
Member

From: Edgewater, Florida, USA

posted 03 June 2004 08:11 PM     profile     
QUESTION!!!!! Will it be any better than what the industry is putting out now and CALLING " COUNTRY"? Reguards, Jennings
Bill Llewellyn
Member

From: San Jose, CA

posted 03 June 2004 08:35 PM     profile     
This all begs a question: What would the deceased performer think or feel if they heard what had been done to make a "new" performance of theirs? Would they approve? Object? Are these songs ones they would have chosen to do given the chance? Or refused? Some would be flattered by this cloning process, some would find the practice reprehensible. But it's hard to know who would do what in each case. It is indeed a grey area.

[This message was edited by Bill Llewellyn on 03 June 2004 at 08:37 PM.]

Ken Lang
Member

From: Simi Valley, Ca

posted 03 June 2004 09:37 PM     profile     
Hey, it's pushing the envelope of what can be done, and will continue to be done. That it's fake is not the point, I believe. It's a demonstration of advancing technology. Whether we like the result, or think it's not right, is moot for those putting it together.

I liked the Hank Jr and Nat cole videos. We understand they were not real, but they give us little idea of what might have been.
Rich Weiss
Member

From: Woodland Hills, CA, USA

posted 03 June 2004 11:28 PM     profile     
It's just a version of 'sampling', and it's finally come to country music. When there's no more creativity to give, they invent a new vehicle. Watch for the 'remix' phenomenon to enter the scene.
Ernie Renn
Member

From: Brainerd, Minnesota USA

posted 04 June 2004 01:24 AM     profile     
The only good thing I can see that will come of this is that finally with a little effort, Merle Haggard, George Jones and Ray Price will be able to sing every song.

------------------
My best,
Ernie

www.buddyemmons.com

Mike Perlowin
Member

From: Los Angeles CA

posted 04 June 2004 06:24 AM     profile     
I think it's kind of creepy. But I guess the bottom line is the quality of the results. If somebody uses this technology to create something that is totally artificial, but nonetheless beautiful, then the music should be accepted for what it is.

We all grew up with the idea that music was something that people performed live, and the recording studio was sort of a sonic camera, capturing a moment of sound the way a camera captures a visual image. But with todays technology, it is possible to do much more.

Rather than worry about how a recording was made, we should base or feelings about it on whether or not it's any good.

Tim Whitlock
Member

From: Arvada, CO, USA

posted 04 June 2004 07:13 AM     profile     
Resectfully, Mike, even if it was excellent, would you approve of someone taking digital snippets of your playing, piecing it together and presenting it as a new work by Mike Perlowin? Would anyone?. The artist builds HIS body of work, HIS vision, on the choices HE makes of what songs to perform, what notes to play, how to play them, etc. Music, as well as all art, is the ultimate form of subjective expression. This kind of objectification, presuming that an artist's work boils down to 0's and 1's to be manipulated according to just anyone's whim, is the antithesis of art. That this is going to be marketed with Conway Twitty's name, even though he had nothing to do it, is grossly unfair to him, God rest his soul. Maybe they should dig up the corpse, attach strings to it and have it dance around to complete this necromantic fraud. [edited for typos]

[This message was edited by Tim Whitlock on 04 June 2004 at 07:55 AM.]

Ernie Renn
Member

From: Brainerd, Minnesota USA

posted 04 June 2004 07:56 AM     profile     
Obviously a deal was made somewhere with the Twitty family. I would think they own all the rights to Conway stuff, at least to his image/likeness. MCA may own the rights to his recorded music, which might include each and every word included in the tune, (which I hadn't even heard of until I read this thread.)

------------------
My best,
Ernie

www.buddyemmons.com

Mike Perlowin
Member

From: Los Angeles CA

posted 04 June 2004 10:19 AM     profile     
Tim, I think I didn't make myself clear enough, and we're taling about 2 different things here. I think what they did to Conway Twitty is creepy, and to call it a new recording by him is a misrepresentation. I think we agree that's just plain wrong.

Leaving the necrophelia and ripping off of the artist's name and work aspects out of it, I think that there is nothing wrong artificially creating a recording of something that cannot be duplicated on stage (as I have done).

I should mention that in a classical music forum, I have been very heavily criticised by 3 people for using studio trickery to create my CDs. They seem far more concerned with the way I recorded them than with the quality of the music, so I'm a little defensive about this issue.

I might add that these same people also object to my playing "their" music on a steel guitar, and one of them wrote that the steel was not a real musical instrument, but rather a toy on the same level as a kazoo.

Bill Hatcher
Member

From: Atlanta Ga. USA

posted 04 June 2004 11:32 AM     profile     
Studio trickery is just as much of an art as playing the instrument is. The better you are at the techno stuff you can do then the better your project will turn out.

The snobbery of the classical ilk never ceases to amaze. This week here in Atlanta I am working with the Atlanta Symphony Orchestra with Howard Shore conducting his music from "Lord Of the Rings". I have a 12 string and hi string Nashville tuning guitar part to play. Last night when Shore walked out he got a standing ovation before he even got on the podium. The classical geeks were just stunned. This music has reached an entirely new group of kids who would never have the desire to come to the concert hall to hear ONLY classical music. Their lack of appreciation for the steel guitar does not suprise me at all.

Tim Whitlock
Member

From: Arvada, CO, USA

posted 04 June 2004 11:35 AM     profile     
Thanks for the clarification, Mike. I wasn't quite sure of your meaning. I'm not a luddite and I have no problems with using technology in art, but I think this example is an abuse.

By the way, I do admire your work. I never dreamed that the Firebird could be interpreted on the steel guitar, with or without studio enhancement. I'm glad you did!Had to laugh at the kazoo remark. I can see what you're up against.

Mike Perlowin
Member

From: Los Angeles CA

posted 04 June 2004 02:09 PM     profile     
quote:
I think this example is an abuse.

I think we're all in agreement on that. This is sort of like grave robbing. It seems ghoulish.
Franklin
Member

From:

posted 04 June 2004 02:43 PM     profile     
Conway fans may not object as much as you might believe. I would certainly rush out to buy "Jaquin" and "Bird" together on the same songs. Taking the keyboard off and substituing another instrument is easy to do these days.
A purist would probably drop dead and Steelers would love it. What you gonna do when guys get crazy ideas like this? How bout Buddy and Jaquin? Day and Buddy?

Paul

Joey Ace
Sysop

From: Southern Ontario, Canada

posted 04 June 2004 02:50 PM     profile     
Marvin Gaye and George Strait ?

erik
Member

From:

posted 04 June 2004 05:36 PM     profile     
I suggested a few years ago on this forum the idea of cutting snippets of Pete Drakes's playing and pasting into an entirely new song (like mine, that's why I thought of it). I like this Conway idea but generally I'm not a big fan of the two-star duo concept.

[edit]I found the thread http://steelguitarforum.com/Archives/Archive-000003/HTML/20011227-1-010360.html [/edit]

-johnson

[This message was edited by erik on 04 June 2004 at 05:43 PM.]

Bobby Lee
Sysop

From: Cloverdale, North California, USA

posted 04 June 2004 05:45 PM     profile     
quote:
Resectfully, Mike, even if it was excellent, would you approve of someone taking digital snippets of your playing, piecing it together and presenting it as a new work by Mike Perlowin?
Actually, that's how Mike creates his own albums!
Mike Perlowin
Member

From: Los Angeles CA

posted 04 June 2004 06:37 PM     profile     
Not quite. Both CDs were recorded on analogue tape, and each little snippet was individually recorded rather some of them being copied and pasted.

But both CDs were in fact recorded a few notes at a time (sometimes only one) and painstakingly edited together.

Jimmie Misenheimer
Member

From: Bloomington, Indiana - U. S. A.

posted 06 June 2004 11:41 AM     profile     
Look at it this way - if this don't prove that there ain't nobody around today that's worth a damn, I don't know what does...

Jimmie

Janice Brooks
Moderator

From: Pleasant Gap Pa

posted 09 July 2004 04:20 PM     profile     
In todays Tennessean
Twitty 'duet' touching or tacky?


By PETER COOPER
Staff Writer

Late legend's part on new song created from old vocal snippets

Technology cannot raise the dead, but it can make them sing.

Music Row long has known of such grave-defying, cash register-ringing power. Years after their fatal plane crashes, Jim Reeves and Patsy Cline's voices were spliced together to create a hit posthumous duet. In 1989, producers blended Hank Williams Jr.'s voice alongside his long gone, lonesome daddy's on There's A Tear In My Beer.

But a new country single takes that process a step further: The deceased can now sing brand-new lyrics and melodies. Just ask Country Music Hall of Famer Conway Twitty.

Actually, Twitty won't answer. He passed away in 1993. But his disembodied voice recently recorded a new duet with country singer Anita Cochran, on a number she penned in 2002 called (I Wanna) Hear A Cheatin' Song.

''Every time I hear it, I get a big smile on my face and chills go through me,'' said Cochran, whose Twitty-assisted single is No. 57 on the Billboard country chart. ''It's the greatest thrill in the world. I saw him perform when I was a little girl.''

Over many months, Cochran and her co-producers — David Huff and (since-retired) Warner Bros. Nashville label chief Jim Ed Norman — combed through the recordings Twitty made on Warner Bros. from 1982-87. Words and syllables were clipped and pasted together in a computer-assisted process that ultimately created the illusion that Twitty was singing along to Cochran's song.

''The technology that allows things to be done today is amazing,'' said Twitty's widow, Dee Jenkins, who approved the duet at its conception and, months later, when she heard the final product. ''Jim Ed called me a year and a half ago and said he had a strange idea. Knowing Jim Ed and the type of person he is, I knew it would be done well. I know Conway would be flattered.''

Co-producer Huff said the process was neither simple nor efficient, but he was pleased to participate in a first-of-its-kind project.

''When she was asked 'Who would you like to do a duet with?' Anita's first response was 'Conway,' '' Huff said. ''In the old days, he's deceased, so there's no option. You'll get differing views on this, though, and some people think you're opening Pandora's box, like, 'Can we get Hank Williams Sr. to do all of Shania Twain's new hits?' I think you can misuse the technology.''

No one is claiming the Cochran-Twitty duet is akin to Williams and Twain joining for a generations-bridging Man, I Feel Like A Woman!, but opinions differ as to whether this use of technology is ethically pure and sonically believable.

At present, computers and engineers are unable to fully replicate the nuance and phrasing that are the hallmarks of a great singer, though Huff said that a few more years of progress could significantly improve the process' speed and outcome: ''When old black and white films were first colorized, it looked pretty cheesy,'' he said. ''A few years later, it started to look really natural.''

Jenkins is pleased with her husband's musical revival, and Norman said Twitty's part — which is only a few lines near the end of the recording — ''sounds natural.'' But, to country artist Vince Gill, the Twitty part does not convey the depth and richness of the Hall of Famer's earthly, earthy voice.

''It's bizarre,'' Gill said. ''I heard the song and I didn't recognize him. Taking a word, tuning it and placing it like that, I think it's really, really, really wrong. I love Conway, but I think he's got plenty of legacy for people to remember him by.''

George Jones, often called country music's greatest living vocalist, was impressed by Cheatin' Song's believability, but he does not hope for his own voice ever to be similarly transported.

''I'm amazed it could sound as good as it sounded, but I don't really think it's right,'' Jones said. ''I think we should let an artist rest in peace, and remember them by playing their music.'' But the record companies ''are going to do it if they can do it. It's one more way the (expletives) can make a dollar.''

After three weeks on the Billboard chart, the song is in regular rotation at relatively few radio stations, but it is getting some spins throughout the country (including, sporadically, at Nashville stations).

Julie Stevens, the program director at San Jose, Calif.'s KRTY, said, ''I can't see adding it (to the station's regular rotation), but how cool an idea is it that you could be dead for years and record a new song?''

Stevens is hardly alone in her enthusiasm for the idea, and Cochran said that Twitty's family's approval was the ultimate barometer of the single's good sense and good taste.

''These people know his voice better than anybody,'' Cochran said, of Twitty's wife and children. ''I would never want to do anything that would be distasteful, and we would never have done this if it hadn't been approved by his family. This was about getting Conway back out there. At times, he hasn't gotten the recognition he deserves.''

Country singer Jeff Bates' voice is at times eerily reminiscent of Twitty, whom he considers a musical idol. He was heartened by the new duet.

''I think it's the sweetest thing Anita could have done,'' Bates said. ''She did it because she really loves to hear him sing. It sounds exactly like what it is — like you took bits of vocals and you pieced 'em together and made him sing a song he'd never sung. You can tell that, but it's neat to get to hear Conway again. I think he would be flattered at the amount of love and work that went into this project.''

Grand Ole Opry star Jeannie Seely was untroubled by the notion that she might sing things in death that she never sang in life. ''To me, that is no different than, say, donating organs,'' Seely said. ''I would take it as an ultimate compliment. All of this technology could be a thing of the future. I guess if anyone has a problem with that, they might as well be changing their wills right now.''

Related story: The process of producing the Cochran/Twitty duet

Peter Cooper can be reached at 259-8220, or by e-mailed at pcooper@tennessean.com.


Janice Brooks
Moderator

From: Pleasant Gap Pa

posted 09 July 2004 04:22 PM     profile     
http://www.takecountryback.com/editorial22.htm
Bill Llewellyn
Member

From: San Jose, CA

posted 09 July 2004 08:20 PM     profile     
I guess this technology might trouble the deceased performers (if it could reach them) if it were to have them sing material that they didn't like. They are, in a word, out of control of what others have them doing posthumously.

A real gray zone, this one. I'm fascinated by the technology (I'm a techie), but you have to wonder how appropriately it will be applied.

------------------
Bill, steelin' since '99 | Steel page | My music | Steelers' birthdays | Over 50?

Ken Lang
Member

From: Simi Valley, Ca

posted 09 July 2004 08:57 PM     profile     
Mike P. does a great version of "Danny Boy." I suspect with todays technology he could be paired with any of the great Irish tenors who sang the song and it would come out fresh, as if it had been recorded live yesterday.

With the advances in Video they could be at Loch Ness with the creature singing third part harmoney.
Tony Prior
Member

From: Charlotte NC

posted 10 July 2004 02:46 AM     profile     
Maybe we will get a new duet by 2 Dead people soon !

t

Dave Van Allen
Member

From: Doylestown, PA , US , Earth

posted 10 July 2004 08:52 AM     profile     
quote:
I have been very heavily criticised by 3 people for using studio trickery to create my CDs.

and how do these folks feel about Glenn Gould?


This topic is 2 pages long:   1  2 

All times are Pacific (US)

next newest topic | next oldest topic

Administrative Options: Close Topic | Archive/Move | Delete Topic
Post New Topic  
Hop to:

Contact Us | The Pedal Steel Pages

Note: Messages not explicitly copyrighted are in the Public Domain.

Powered by Infopop www.infopop.com © 2000
Ultimate Bulletin Board 5.46