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  Is "It" In The Hands.... Or Inherent Tone? (Page 1)

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Author Topic:   Is "It" In The Hands.... Or Inherent Tone?
Reece Anderson
Member

From: Keller Texas USA

posted 01 December 2006 12:36 AM     profile     
“Is it possible to consistently identify a sound/tone “signature” which is unique and exclusive to any specific name brand of pedal steel guitar manufactured in the past 40 years”?

We all know different guitars of the same brand can sound somewhat different, but if there are those who believe a “signature” truly exists and is inherent in any name brand guitar, would they be suggesting the characteristics of sound/tone are consistent within controllable and distinguishable parameters, no matter who is playing the guitar?

Those who believe this to be true would then quite possibly be of the opinion owning a specific name brand guitar provides them an inherent and distinguishable tone!

Can this be true?............................

Colby Tipton
Member

From: Texas, USA

posted 01 December 2006 01:10 AM     profile     
I can set behind a Sho-Bud, a 70's MSA, a Emmons push-pull and a Carter they each have a different sound to me, not what I would call tone so much but just a different sound. I still sound like me playing it, that must be the tone part but the guitars have a different sound.

Colby

Jimmie Martin
Member

From: Ohio, USA

posted 01 December 2006 02:10 AM     profile     
i had a guitar for sale that i couldn't get any tone worth listening to. horrible. a man from misouri came by my house to try it out to buy it. he made it sound beautifull. that makes me believe that the tone has to be in the hands like jeff newman said.
Bobby Bowman
Member

From: Cypress, Texas, USA

posted 01 December 2006 03:24 AM     profile     
Reese and all,
I too, believe that "tone", from soothing (mellow, dark, heavey, etc) to screeching (harsh, thin, shallow or whatever) and everything in between, is a product of equipment beginning with guitar all the way through whatever is between guitar (including strings, choices of picks/no picks) as well as tone bar selection, cords, volume pedal, effects and such, to the amp/s, which includes speaker/s, cabinet/s design and placement,,,,all of this with the added descriptive adjutives, nouns, pronouns and other forms of discriptive language that are used, are indeed controled, brought about, manipulated, shaped and solidified in the hands. Both, left and right.
However, I think we've all left out a very important piece of the "tone picture" (unless I've missed it somewhere in all the threads and posts of this worthy topic),,,,and that piece is the EARS. My poor old half deaf ears may very well hear a tone completely different than say, your ears, or any one elses ears. As a matter of fact, my right ear hears things completely different than my left ear and also many things (frequenseys(sp?) and such things) that my left ear doesn't even hear at all. Even to the point that a particular sound for me usually has three differnt conceptions of that sound,,,,ie,,,,the right ear sound (which is probably more on the normal side), the left ear sound (which usually is somewhat subduded and "lifeless") and the more important sound for me to interpret tone and such things,,,,the combination of both ears.
Now Reese and all, I don't know if this is what other folks go through to determine what is good, bad or otherwise, but it is a very "real" factor for me.
Just thought I'd throw this little "ear" tidbit into the overall discussion. And,,,I already realize that I have probably not chose the proper and best words to describe what I am trying to say,,,,, !
BB
I should have inserted way back up there in my post,,,,it all really starts in the brain, you know,,,,the "grey matter". Musically speaking, and only musically speaking for this topic, the brain, in my opinion, has to have a good conception of everything concerning playing any instrument. Vision, imagination, knowledge of the instrument, intervals, grips, choices of execution, ability to execute all of this and countless other things that enter the overall picture and process of what we are playing and attempting to accomplish musically,,,,then be able to "deliver" those concepts to the hands, fingers, legs, feet and no telling what else and then have all of that to at least resemble something that makes sense to ourselves and those who have been appointed to listen and judge whether or not it has been worthwhile. Or something to that effect. LOL!
One more thing that is absolutely and positively a natural fact,,,,,"I done got myself way in over my head" and my spelling is still a good bit short of what it should be.
It still and always will boil down to this,,,,just sit down and play the SOB, be it good, bad, indifferent or utterlly amazing! And if you're serious about becoming a good player,,,,,,don't stop or give up 'till you do become the very best that you can be and then push it just a little farther.
www.bobbybowman.com

------------------
If you play 'em, play 'em good!
If you build 'em, build 'em good! http://www.bobbybowman.com

[This message was edited by Bobby Bowman on 01 December 2006 at 03:51 AM.]

[This message was edited by Bobby Bowman on 01 December 2006 at 05:24 AM.]

A. J. Schobert
Member

From: Cincinnati OHIO WHO DEY???

posted 01 December 2006 04:37 AM     profile     
Could you pick up a new country music CD and tell what PSG is on it? I doubt that very much. Tone is in the hands. even if you have two left hands! My 2 guitars do sound different next to each other, but it is so suttle no one would notice.I went to an Alan Jackson concert a while ago I didn't know what steel was being played till I saw the emmons logo.
Roger Crawford
Member

From: Locust Grove, GA USA

posted 01 December 2006 05:13 AM     profile     
Darn, I thought Alan Jackson's steeler played a Derby.
Jim Sliff
Member

From: Hermosa Beach California, USA

posted 01 December 2006 05:14 AM     profile     
"Could you pick up a new country music CD and tell what PSG is on it?"

That has zero to do with the inherent tone of an instrument and a lot to do with overprocessing of today's recordings. You need to take instruments side-by-side to notice subtle differences, but some are apparent even in recordings. But "modern" recording is a lowest-common-denominator thing.

Hook Moore
Member

From: South Charleston,West Virginia

posted 01 December 2006 05:17 AM     profile     
Reece, There are times I hear an emmons push pull and just know its a push pull. But not consistently. I too believe great tone begins with the hands, brains, heart, soul and as Bobby says, the ears.
To me, Tommy White has proven this over and over on the Opry stage. Many different guitars and many different brands but almost always the same great tone. Though each guitar may seem to have a little different sound than other guitars, I can not consistently pick a brand by sound only.
Hook

------------------
www.HookMoore.com

Danny Kuykendall
Member

From: Fullerton, CA, USA

posted 01 December 2006 05:28 AM     profile     
I played the first Rus-ler made for almost 30 years and traded it for a GFI because of the size and weight, hoping to retain the same tone. What I found was that I had to press down a little harder with the bar to achieve the same tone, and it the tone could have been a little different. The heavier guitar allowed me to use the bar lightly. I get a slight buzz with the GFI on lower strings if I don't consciously press down a little harder.

And so I believe a similar tone can be achieved with the lighter guitar, but maybe not exactly the same. I'm certainly not complaining about the tone of the GFI, I really like the tone. I'm saying it's slightly different.
Danny

Charlie McDonald
Member

From: Lubbock, Texas, USA

posted 01 December 2006 06:21 AM     profile     
My solid maple MSA keeps me going back to it.
Something in my mind, through my ears, and regulated by my hands, tells me it's the way I want to sound. If I picked better, it would sound better, but occasionally I hit it just right, and the sound is very satisfying.

I think it's the timbre of timber, but I know that there's psychoacoustics to be considered along with other factors.
But it's not imagination.

Jerry Hayes
Member

From: Virginia Beach, Va.

posted 01 December 2006 06:31 AM     profile     
I only have one pedal steel (BMI S-12) so I don't have anything to compare it to but I believe that tone has more to do with the amp than the guitar. I have about 15 or 16 electric guitars of varying qualities and pickup configurations but all can be made to sound good on my better amps. I have a couple of old amps which really stink and no matter how I EQ them I just can't get a good tone, even with my best guitars or my pedal steel. In this day of better electronics I think you can make a bad guitar sound good if it's played through a good amp..........JH in Va.

------------------
Don't matter who's in Austin (or anywhere else) Ralph Mooney is still the king!!!


John Daugherty
Member

From: Rolla, Missouri, USA

posted 01 December 2006 06:36 AM     profile     
The sound of a guitar can be varied A LOT by the electronics in the chain between the guitar and the ear.
Although each guitar produces it's inherent sound, So much can be done to change that sound with the electronics and the players touch.
I still believe that the most important part of the sound is "the touch of the masters hand".
If you don't believe that, grab a guy off the street, sit him down at your steel guitar and ask him to pick any string, or strings, and produce a sound that is pleasing to the ear. OUCH !

------------------
www.home.earthlink.net/~johnd37


RUSS RICKMANN
Member

From: Houston, TX USA

posted 01 December 2006 06:39 AM     profile     
Hear, hear Bobby Bowman.....and no pun intended! Russ
P Gleespen
Member

From: Lakewood, OH USA (I miss Boston!)

posted 01 December 2006 07:05 AM     profile     
quote:
Could you pick up a new country music CD and tell what PSG is on it?

Sure, that's easy, it's a Franklin. I can tell without listening.


(that's a joke, son...)

Reece Anderson
Member

From: Keller Texas USA

posted 01 December 2006 07:14 AM     profile     
A.J. Sch....When listening to country music I usually identify with the individual style rather than the tone of the guitar being played because of the tone variations possible in the studio.

Jim S....We can agree that when playing in a studio, they have the ability to alter the tone dramatically.

(excluding all sound enhancement except reverb)

The real question I'm asking is.....

"Are there those who believe they can consistently identify a name brand tone "signature", when four different name brand guitars are setting next to each other being played by the same player, have the same tuning, using the same amp, volume pedal, and cords"?

Terry Edwards
Member

From: Layton, UT

posted 01 December 2006 07:52 AM     profile     
My own ears can tell the difference between a push-pull designed guitar and an all-pull designed guitar. It is impossible for me differentiate one "name brand" from another.

I think I can tell the difference between single coil and dual coil pickups but not "name brands" of guitars.

I have to hear them in person though. What we hear on recordings has been compressed, EQ'd, and "enhanced" to please the producer and never sounds like the actual guitar player intended it to.

Terry

P Gleespen
Member

From: Lakewood, OH USA (I miss Boston!)

posted 01 December 2006 08:00 AM     profile     
quote:
"Are there those who believe they can consistently identify a name brand tone "signature", when four different name brand guitars are setting next to each other being played by the same player, have the same tuning, using the same amp, volume pedal, and cords"?

I think it depends on the brands. I've never tried it, but I bet it'd be possible to tell the difference between an Emmons push-pull, a ZB, an older ShoBud and an older (non Millenium) MSA in that same player/amp scenario.

I don't know if it'd be as easy with 4 newer model steels. If you lined up a Carter, a Fessenden, a Performance and a GFI, I think it'd be more difficult.

Klaus Caprani
Member

From: Copenhagen, Denmark

posted 01 December 2006 08:51 AM     profile     
A little off topic I seem to remember a tread, where one of the forum members actually performed a hearing-test, on different brands and models of steels.

One other member were spot on and several others very close, as I remember it.
Maybe modern steels appear more generic sonic'ly. Don't know.

Anyway I'm convinced that most of a players tone is "in the hands". Any given steel will sound entirily different with a different player.

------------------
Klaus Caprani

MCI RangeXpander S-10 3x4
www.klauscaprani.com


David Doggett
Member

From: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA

posted 01 December 2006 08:53 AM     profile     
Which came first, the chicken or the egg?
Winston Street
Member

From: Laurel, Mississippi, USA

posted 01 December 2006 09:00 AM     profile     
""Are there those who believe they can consistently identify a name brand tone "signature", when four different name brand guitars are setting next to each other being played by the same player, have the same tuning, using the same amp, volume pedal, and cords"?"

Reece, I believe there are those who really think they can but I don't think anyone could consistantly do it. The reason being that guitars of a certain brand vary themselves from each other. I would have to guess that the Millineum Carbon Fiber guitar would come closer than any guitar on the market to retaining the same sound between all the guitars of their type. And even that could change if the mixture of the carbon fiber was different. It would probably be a very suttle change.

Those who believe that the sound comes from the wood would have to consider that there is never going to be two pieces of wood exactly the same. I personally believe that wood has more to do with the sustain of the guitar than with the tone. I have a skillion reasons for believing that.

There are those who have really keen ears and hear tones that I'm incapable of hearing but I believe if you blindfold someone and let them hear you, Bobby Bowman, Paul or Buddy play, I just don't think they would consistantly identify the brand guitar. I believe with all things equal, and different persons sit down behind the same guitar, there will be a dramatic difference in the tone coming from the amp.

Bobby Bowan has a legitimate observation. I think we hear different also at different times. I played quite a long [7 years] "set down" gig and it seemed that some nights that someone had come in and completely changed the settings on my amp. Now was that, the difference in the amp changing from one night to the next, my picking techique varying,[most of the time I play without picks], or did I hear different from one night to the next. I never figured it out.
Bye the way, Bobby Bowman sit in for me one night and sounded great. So who knows?

Thanks for the great thread. I 100% support the hands tone theory with all other things being equal.

Winston

Curt Langston
Member

From: ***In the shadows of Tulsa at Bixby, USA***

posted 01 December 2006 10:03 AM     profile     
Reece asked:
quote:
Is "It" In The Hands.... Or Inherent Tone?

It is in the hands.

quote:
"Are there those who believe they can consistently identify a name brand tone "signature", when four different name brand guitars are setting next to each other being played by the same player, have the same tuning, using the same amp, volume pedal, and cords"?

Most certainly.

Without a doubt.

For a player to get that "tone" or "that sound", he must hear it in his head first.

Therefore the tone starts in the mind.

The mind sets into action all the movements to the guitar, such as the approach, pick attack, volume swells, muting and etc.

"Inherent tone" has very little to do with the signature sound of a pro!

That's why a top level pro can make a Maverick or Red Baron sound fantastic!

And ole Bobbe does not even need any picks!


Good post!

[This message was edited by Curt Langston on 01 December 2006 at 10:18 AM.]

Mike Wheeler
Member

From: Columbus, Ohio, USA

posted 01 December 2006 10:18 AM     profile     
I believe "it" is in the hands "and" the guitar allows "it" to be heard or not heard. I think we could agree that the guitar doesn't "create" the sound, but rather it is the conduit thru which the player expresses himself. By manipulating a quality instrument in a miriad of ways, the accomplished player can reproduce the sounds that are created in his mind.....so,

Give him a so-so guitar and he'll make the best sounds the guitar is capable of.

Give him a great guitar and he'll make the best sounds he is capable of.

The results are always a colaboration of the player AND his instrument. Either one is nothing without the other.

So, the "tone" is in the hands "and" the instrument....you know...teamwork.

Bobby Lee
Sysop

From: Cloverdale, North California, USA

posted 01 December 2006 11:04 AM     profile     
I adjust my amp to get "my sound", no matter which guitar I'm playing. The differences between guitars go largely unnoticed by the musicians I play with. I think that my tone comes mostly from my amp.

I can hear differences between amplifiers easier than differences between steel guitars.

------------------
Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog

Mike Wheeler
Member

From: Columbus, Ohio, USA

posted 01 December 2006 12:07 PM     profile     
So, Bobby Lee, are you saying that it makes no difference to you which guitar you play? Or is there one that you particularly prefer for it's tonality?
Bobby Lee
Sysop

From: Cloverdale, North California, USA

posted 01 December 2006 12:12 PM     profile     
My guitar preference is not based on tone very much. I can usually get a tone I like out of any guitar I play.
Mike Wheeler
Member

From: Columbus, Ohio, USA

posted 01 December 2006 12:32 PM     profile     
I see. I have always felt the necessity to find a "connection" to the guitars I've played...steel or standard. I feel a sort of "magic" (for lack of a better word) happen with certain guitars that seems to enhance my ability to communicate what I feel inside.

I can still play the notes on another axe, but it's lacking the "soul" factor for some reason. I found that connection with only two of the steels I've owned...my first MSA U12 and my current Dekley U12. The MCIs, ShoBuds, etc. were great guitars in every way, but they didn't "talk" to me. I don't know how else to explain this stuff...maybe I'm getting too cought up in the "feeling" stuff....but it's still true.

Anybody else know what I'm talking about, or should I go find a good shrink??

Kevin Hatton
Member

From: Amherst, N.Y.

posted 01 December 2006 12:38 PM     profile     
I can hear Dan Dugmore on his Pro-II Sho-Bud instantly on top 40 hits. I also can hear Gary Morse on his Sho-Bud. Totally different tone signature from Paul Franklin on his Franklin. If you can't hear a Bigsby then your ear is not that good. Most modern guitars all sound near the same. Very bland. Which is why I play a 68 ZB, which sounds like a 68 ZB. It doesn't have the same tone signature as a 72 Sho-Bud. Neither of those sounds like a Bigsby.
Jerry Fleming
Member

From: Moneta, Virginia, USA

posted 01 December 2006 01:02 PM     profile     

I learned many years ago, (tone) or a players overall sound comes from both hands. I have seen guys like Kayton Roberts, Jerry Byrd and my dad get the sweetest sound out of a guitar that looked like firewood with only a very cheezy amp. In my humble view, if one has what I call "that God given touch", he or she can find the sweet spot on any guitar and make it sing. I agree with Jeff's statement "the proof is in the pudding."


This is a very enjoyable thread. Thanks for sharing..

Happy Holidays,

Jerry

Chris LeDrew
Member

From: Newfoundland, Canada

posted 01 December 2006 01:06 PM     profile     
A. J. Schobert
Member

From: Cincinnati OHIO WHO DEY???

posted 01 December 2006 01:08 PM     profile     
Roger Alan Jacksons steeler may have a derby now but this is going back to his Chatahochee tour.
A. J. Schobert
Member

From: Cincinnati OHIO WHO DEY???

posted 01 December 2006 01:25 PM     profile     
Reece that should be easy to figure out, there are alot of guys whom have multiple guitars, just post 4 sound files, just play something simple (mary had a little lamb) on each guitar and see if forum members can guess the brand, it would be fun, I know I couldn't cypher the brands out as I only heard a few myself, but I believe tone is without a doubt in the hands, now if someone would guess right what would they win?!
Joe Goldmark
Member

From: San Francisco, CA 94131

posted 01 December 2006 02:39 PM     profile     
Here's something I noticed, but everyone might not agree. We all love the wonderful "sizzling" sound that Tom Brumley got with Buck, which had a lot to do with his ZB. When I listen to his "In Time" album from a couple of years ago, he still plays beautifully, and very hip, but it's a different sound to my ears. His tone is more mainstream and less distinctive. It would be harder to pick him out in a blindfold test. Of course, he's also not playing those signature licks that help our ears make the identifying leap, but I think a lot of it has to do with his Anapeg that he's mostly playing on this album.
T. C. Furlong
Member

From: Vernon Hills, Illinois, USA

posted 01 December 2006 03:39 PM     profile     
Joe,
Tom Brumley told me that the sound you aptly describe as "sizzling" was not at all what he heard when he recorded those Buck hits. He said he had a lush warm sound from his ZB and the recording engineer/producer altered the tone so that it would jump out of a car speaker.

I have spent countless hours trying to understand what I call...The Order Of Importance Of The Elements Of Tone. I have settled on only one revealation to be fact. It is The System that starts with the mind of the player and ends with the mind of the listener. The in-between stuff (hands,picks,cables, ears, amp, room, etc.) has been covered in this and other threads. Referencing Reece's question about name brand tone, to me really depends on what the rest of The System is. I have eight push/pulls and they all sound different. When part of my System, I can identify each of them by their sonic signature. I can also distinguish any of them from any one of my four Sho-Buds when played as part of my System. I have a Franklin that I can easily pick out of a line up too. Given the variability of sonic signature within just the push/pulls, it is my belief that unless you were very careful about having a System with which you were very familiar, it would be very difficult to indentify the name brand of a pedal steel guitar by the sound you heard. In the end, I think that the sound of an individual instrument, and how that instrument gels with the rest of the System is what matters. And that all of that depends on what you are trying to do. A couple years ago, a producer asked me if I could come up with a Joaquin Murphey tone for a swing record. I didn't have a Bigsby then and it was really challenging to get anything like that sound out of my Zumsteel which was my main recording guitar at the time. I thought I failed at even coming close to the sound the producer was looking for. He thought I nailed it. Go figure.
TC

Stephen Gambrell
Member

From: Ware Shoals, South Carolina, USA

posted 01 December 2006 03:42 PM     profile     
Slightly off topic, but I hear a difference in Mike Auldridge's dobro tone after he started playing pedal steel. I think he's palm blocking the dobro now, although I haven't asked. Reese, there are some of us who started on dobro, with a Stevens, Tipton, Scheerhorn, or other brand "fluted" bar with finger spaces, that do not choose to grip the round steel bar the way you recommend---In fact, your way sounds downright awkward, but that's just me. I believe a player can get satisfying tone no matter HOW he holds the bar, or whether his picks are forward, backward, or at home in a glass of water with his false teeth. All it takes is a little practice, and familiarization with them little knobs on the amp!
Doug Rolfe
Member

From: Indianapolis, IN

posted 01 December 2006 04:14 PM     profile     
A while back Randy Beavers posted a challenge to this forum. He recorded a new CD with 12 songs on it. Some of those he used his push/pull and others he used his Zum. Several took a stab at telling which ones were played with what instrument. The final results were noone got it right. He personally told me this. I have contended and still do, that "all things being equal" except the brand of steel, that you cannot tell which brand is being played. Obviously there are those who say they can tell.
If the push/pull is so far above all others, why isn't it still being made?
Sorry Reece, I didn't mean to hijack your thread.
Kevin Hatton
Member

From: Amherst, N.Y.

posted 01 December 2006 04:35 PM     profile     
Joe Goldmark, you are right on. You are correct. You have very good ears. The ZB sound had nothing to do with the studio. Just reference the Ranch Shows tape and you will hear the exact same steel sound produced live.

[This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 01 December 2006 at 04:36 PM.]

Dean Parks
Member

From: Sherman Oaks, California, USA

posted 01 December 2006 05:28 PM     profile     
I think that each player has his own ideal sound, and he tweaks everything within reach to make that tone, on any instrument he's playing.

It may take a lot of "doing" to get that tone on some instruments, and that extra effort may cramp his technique considerably. He MAY find an instrument, and/or an amplification chain, which gets him there with less strain, or maybe even with some unexpected added inspiration (it could be sonic, or ergonomic). If so, he wants that instrument, because of the bottom line: he finds he can make his best music with it.

Otherwise you wouldn't have great players be so extremely concerned with their equipment.

I also think that inspiring equipment breeds inspired technique.

Equipment is not everything, but it's not nothing.

-dean-

[This message was edited by Dean Parks on 01 December 2006 at 05:29 PM.]

[This message was edited by Dean Parks on 01 December 2006 at 05:31 PM.]

Chris LeDrew
Member

From: Newfoundland, Canada

posted 01 December 2006 05:33 PM     profile     
Dean, excellent post. I think you nailed it completely. One of the best posts on this subject yet. It's a focused, level opinion that sums it up very well.
Fred Justice
Member

From: Globe Arizona, Copper Capital Of The World

posted 01 December 2006 05:41 PM     profile     
Dean good to see you posting here and a very good responce to this subject as well.

------------------
Fred Justice,
Justice Custom Cases & Cabinets,
Fred's Music, www.fredjusticemusic.com

[This message was edited by Fred Justice on 01 December 2006 at 05:42 PM.]

Jim Cohen
Member

From: Philadelphia, PA

posted 01 December 2006 05:45 PM     profile     
Doug, when my first CD, "Finally Here" came out, I also challenged the Forum to tell which one song out of all of them was recorded on an older Emmons pushpull (all the others were on my modern Fessenden). Only one person got it right: David Donald. He obviously has very good ears and I'm sure does a great job in the studio. But, given all the hoopla about pushpulls, one might have expected more people to recognize its sound. But perhaps it doesn't actually make that sound in my hands!

I kinda think there's a lesson in there somewhere...


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