Seriously, I tune straight up on the back neck of my Williams, which is tuned to D6th. It sounds okay, even in the studio.

I tune by ear till it sounds good with whatever music I am playing. Its good practice to tune by ear. Who cares what it says on a little digital LED ? Music is experienced with your ears not your eyes.

"Never Ever tune your pedal steel straight up 440 on all your notes."

"however I just got back from a session where I had to tune straight up tempered, including the pedals. The composer is a pianist and has ears I would kill for, so everything has to be dead-on with the piano."

With all sincere respect, NEVER, EVER tell a player not to tune up to straight 440. CUZ if'n ya do, sooner or later that dude is gonna run across a composer with "ears to kill for" and make him feel like a dope!

Folks, if the steel guitar is EVER accepted on the concert stage, (I do not feel it ever will be), ya better be prepared to change yer waysa livin' podnah .

Cuz if'n ya don't tune 440, the maestro would throw you; your cadmium plated tinker toy, your too loud amp(s) and yer 'cesories right off that stage. "And don't let the door hit you in........when you leave"

Lucky for me, I don't play good enough to play by myself, let alone the concert stage; or any other stage, so I don' hafta worry 'bout it. So I kin tune to "dem beats out" all I wonts to!! But you precious folks are a different story. Sooooo....

chas,
Was this an acoustic piano? Most pianos are not tuned strictly ET. Whazzupwitdat? Did you just have to match the temperament that particular piano tuner used?

As an aside, I'm not sure I'd wish for 'perfect pitch'. The few people I've met who have it drive me crazy because 99%+ of music they hear drives THEM crazy.
but if they're the boss I guess you gotta pay the cost . . .

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Emmons D-10 9x9, 1971 Dobro

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but if they're the boss I guess you gotta pay the cost . . .

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Larry, the composer is Thomas Newman and the piano is a concert grand. I'm playing steel guitar long tones with complicated samples 'chasing me'. I literally have to watch the tuner while I'm playing to be sure that it's spot on. If you went over to the piano and sat on the keyboard, he could tell you what notes you sat on. Years ago, when I first started working for him, I had a cluster/texture up and he stopped it because there was a D# in it that didn't fit. I had to count down through the strings and yup, there was one in there, couldn't get it with a P or K so I just retuned it. It just makes for another level of difficulty.

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But you precious folks are a different story.

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In this corner ... representing the ET consortium ... Buddy Emmons.

In the far corner ... representing the JI consortium ... Jerry Byrd

Seriously, as I have stated over in the No Peddlers section (where I belong):

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I think most us were initially attracted to the steel guitar because of its unique ability to produce EXTENSIVE harmonic overtones ... in agreement with each other... anywhere on the fretboard.

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In this corner ... representing the ET consortium ... Buddy Emmons.

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I don't believe that this is a 100% accurate statement. BE has said that he does flatten the G#'s to 438, which is roughly 10 cents, I think. He is adjusting the string (3rd's) that is notoriously the worst offender. Here is a direct quote.

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I tune my thirds to 438 just to compensate for a possible drift of that note a cent or two sharp.
For everybody else, no matter how much you quibble over two cents, harmonics, fundamentals, or any other rationale, when your 434 clashes with a 440 in the band, you're gonna lose.

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[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 04 June 2002 at 07:01 PM.]

My HUMOUROUS attempt was based on the following statement made by Mr. Emmons in a previous thread (That you were a part of Jeff):

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I tune my thirds to 438 just to compensate for a possible drift of that note a cent or two sharp.
For everybody else, no matter how much you quibble over two cents, harmonics, fundamentals, or any other rationale, when your 434 clashes with a 440 in the band, you're gonna lose.

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This can be read in its entirety for the proper context here: http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/003912.html

OOPS... I quess I was postin when you were edittin'.

I understood this statement to say that he was deviating from ET to compensate for a mechanical anomaly NOT as a compromise to JI. This cooresponds to the above Damir quote from Mr. Emmons.

[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 04 June 2002 at 07:04 PM.]

The thirds that keep being dwelled upon are not the worst "offenders" of the JI vs. ET "war".

The D (b7th) in the E9 tuning has a JI value that is 18 cents SHARP of ET. (The JI G# is 14 cents flat of ET).

That D# (7th) has a JI value that is 12 cents flat of ET (admittly not as "notorious" as the G# ... but certainly a force to reckon with)

Since "both necks" were mentioned by Mr. Emmons ...

The A (6th) in the C6 tuning has a JI value that is 16 cents flat of ET.

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http://hometown.aol.com/damirzanne/damirzanne1.html

[This message was edited by Damir Besic on 05 June 2002 at 05:01 AM.]

And, Buddy would tune ET if it were not for cabinet flex, temperature changes etc. His words in case ya haven't hoid

In otherwords, AFTER years of Buddy tuning JI like most of us do, he changed. Yes, he changed and he admitted it right here on this forum. So did Weldon Myrick and a few other players whose ears have become soo cultured they are learning what many concert pianist and others have know from becoming "finished" musicians.

Point of interest: In 1998, this ET/JI (verbal diahrea) scenario surfaced on this forum. Buddy joined with some very poignant posts as he enlightened us fans on what he was NOW doing.

Also, there was a not so complimentary post that ensued after Buddy's post. It more or less implied that Buddy was in error! And then an ever more stringent NOT so complimentary post ensued with BE as the author.

Later that year, I was walking near Buddy's both in StLouis, and he motioned for me to come over and look at something. AS I did, I saw he had a card sitting on his guitar and it said

"3rd's-439.5"

I, and several others that were there, had a ball with this. And of course Buddy was smiling from ear to ear as ONLY he can do. One of many treasured moments this man has left me with. I do love him to pieces.

Before I left the booth, I said to Buddy,

"Wrong again!" he laughed aloud and again thrilled me to death. For ONLY he and I knew what the statement was referring to. And to top it off, several times after that, we would meet and again the words,

"Wrong again".

We would both bust out laughing. Oh how my life has been blessed by such precious moments.

God, please richly bless BE. And ALL of you,

carl

[This message was edited by C Dixon on 05 June 2002 at 06:06 AM.]

Bottom line is that there are top pros who tune by ear which gives something pretty close to Just Intonation. Charleton, Franklin, and others. I was told that Weldon has been tuning straight up ET (or something close) for many years and believe that Hal Rugg, Buddy Emmons, and others do as well. Do you start with A=440 as a reference for the root? Some do, some don't. It's all a compromise. There are reasons for JI (sounds sweeter) and for ET (combinations work better in multiple contexts). I personally prefer something in between, but there are many spots 'in between'. YOU must find what works for YOU, then stop tuning and PLAY.

How you tune open is not nearly as important once the bar hits the strings. Temperature changes that precisely tuned note once the hands hit the strings. We are all making micro-adjustments all the time. There is a feedback loop between the hands and the ears that reminds us where the bar needs to go, whether it needs to be slanted slightly one way or the other, and if a little vibrato is needed to sweeten it up a bit.

If you are a bedroom player, it doesn't matter -- the only person you have to please is yourself. If you are a weekend warrior or even a fulltime pro, you ain't gonna be workin' if the bandleader , band members, or listeners are complaining about your not being in tune. This is a personal choice, just like what kind of guitar to play, what amp to use, and whether to shave this morning.

Why does it have to be one way or the other? We need to discuss these issues in an academic manner and realize that others can disagree and STILL BE RIGHT.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Emmons D-10 9x9, 1971 Dobro

[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 05 June 2002 at 07:04 AM.]

Tuning to a chart is like following a guideline. It puts you in the ballpark, but it won't hit a home run.
Every player should be able to tune by ear, but exactly how you do that can vary. Do you tune the beats totally out? (I don't) How much can your ears tolerate and still sound in tune? These are personal decisions like I mentioned before. If the listener finds what you are doing pleasing, you MUST be doing something right.

Just my opinion.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Emmons D-10 9x9, 1971 Dobro

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maybe YOU need some ear training devices here.Sorry.

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Anyone who has listened to Ricky's recordings knows his intonation is impeccable. Ear-training is the ONLY way to learn intonation. If you don't have an ear, you will play out of tune no matter how you tune the guitar. This is a fact.

[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 05 June 2002 at 07:35 AM.]

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I don't believe that this is a 100% accurate statement. BE has said that he does flatten the G#'s to 438, which is roughly 10 cents, I think. He is adjusting the string (3rd's) that is notoriously the worst offender.

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But since you saw fit to "correct" my obviously comedic depiction of the whole tuning "Boxing Match" ... I thought it was only justified to explain my choice of ET "Champion..Icon...whatever".

Personally I am in the "Byrd" corner on this topic ... I have every album he has made ... Including "Polyneasian Suite" where he plays with a FULL SYMPHONY ORCHESTRA ... and his tuning methods sure don't seem to conflict with any of the other instruments on that album or any of the other recordings I have ever heard.

Of course he is playin' a non-pedal steel ... but that should not factor in to the equation .. if you are picking a C and E double stop over a C chord .... ???

[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 05 June 2002 at 10:48 AM.]

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Personally I am in the "Byrd" corner on this topic ... I have every album he has made ... Including "Polyneasian Suite"
where he plays with a FULL SYMPHONY ORCHESTRA ... and his tuning methods sure don't seem to conflict with any of the other instruments on that album or any of the other recordings I have ever heard.

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Tuners of any kind are an invaluable aid,but nobody has come up with a tuner that is as accurate as the human ear. Just as we should learn to do arithmetic with a pencil and paper before we are introduced to a calculator, we need to HEAR what our instruments sound like,in AND out of tune, before we start fooling with tuners.

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Earlier I referred to having to watch my tuner while I was recording, and that was because I was playing into a "wash of color". When I'm playing in traditional settings I usually listen/tune to the bass.

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The only time they don't is when there is a fixed pitch instrument like a piano, and then they all have to adjust to the piano.

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It's amazing how so many people can be tuning their guitars wrong!!