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Author
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Topic: Why aren't you playing a Universal guitar?
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Mark Metdker
Member From: North Central Texas, USA
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posted 22 December 2004 04:20 AM
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I haven't had my Universal guitar very long, but I can already tell it is the best guitar I have ever had. Not only is the quality/tone/workmanship great, but the universal tuning is the way to go. There are lots of good things about this type of guitar.They are lighter than a double neck guitar.
No switching from one neck to another.
Everything you need in just about any type of song is right there in front of you on one neck. I'm sure some of you guys that have been playing one longer than me can come up with even more reasons to play a universal. So, why isn't everyone playing one of these types of guitars? Inquiring minds want to know! ------------------
Zum U-12 w/True Tone pickup
G&L guitars
Peavey Nashville 112 Band Pics
http://community.webshots.com/album/176544894AuXSmi |
David L. Donald
Member From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand
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posted 22 December 2004 04:41 AM
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4 reasons.
the fall of the market
the fall big time of the dollar
Not wanting to sell my D-10 Sho-Bud to do it.The one or two I would want ,set up like I would want,
are quite expensive too. |
Jerry Hayes
Member From: Virginia Beach, Va.
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posted 22 December 2004 04:44 AM
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Hey Mark, I play a form of U-12 myself but I drop the low B and put a C# note in the 9th position. I played the regular E9/B6 for a lot of years but went to my current copedant a couple of years ago and have never been happier. I think a lot of why some folks don't play a universal is that they're used to playing a D-10 so why change. Also, there's that "D" string fixation which many can't overcome and myself being one of them. Although I didn't have the D on string 9 for a long time, I still missed it but now I just hit my LKR and it's right back where it's supposed to be. With the exception of maybe Joe Wright, and the late Jeff Newman, all the top drawer steelers go the D-10 route and that's what they should do. My personal favorite steel player is Ralph Mooney but he's in a category all by himself. It'd have to be Jernigan, Emmons, Franklin, Rugg, & Myrick after that and they're all D-10 players. I'd cut off my left..........little toe to be able to play like any one of 'em. There are some Uni players who come in from the 6th side like Maurice Anderson and Junior Knight and they're awesome to say the least. It's just personal preference for most but for me I'm like you, I like to try to get it all on one neck but I'm more country than most and don't really like Jazz but if I did, I'd probably go the D-10 route as I think it'd be more efficient to play those types of music on a neck dedicated to the 6th tuning without having to hold a knee lever in. There are changelocks but I think if you go that route you might as well have a double neck. The thing about a Uni if you can go from one style to the next in the middle of a ride.....Have a good 'un, JH------------------
Livin' in the Past and Future with a 12 string Mooney Universal tuning. |
Chris Forbes
Member From: Beltsville, MD, USA
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posted 22 December 2004 05:42 AM
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Personal preference, that doesn't make me a bad person does it?  |
Mark Metdker
Member From: North Central Texas, USA
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posted 22 December 2004 05:45 AM
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Chris, I'll love you no matter what kind of tuning you choose!  ------------------
Zum U-12 w/True Tone pickup
G&L guitars
Peavey Nashville 112 Band Pics
http://community.webshots.com/album/176544894AuXSmi |
John Daugherty
Member From: Rolla, Missouri, USA
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posted 22 December 2004 05:48 AM
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Jerry has the same thoughts that I have. The only reason I considered going back to a double neck was the fact that I had to raise the 9th string with the LKL lever, in order to get that 7th chord that I use so much. I did a little tweaking and modifying that lever to get it closer to my leg. I use the "Day setup" which puts my leg farther away from the LKL when using the A/B pedals. I give credit to Johnny Barham for helping me solve this problem.
I do have a B6 lock on my Marlen and use it to keep my leg from tiring when playing a complete song in B6.............JD |
Jon Jaffe
Member From: Austin, Texas
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posted 22 December 2004 06:04 AM
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Mark you are being practical, and I agree with you. However, steel guitar player are traditionalists, and resistant to change but not changers. They are gadget freaks, and the desire for more pedals and knee levers and strings is appealing. At the same time, they worship the simplicity of Mr. Green. But ask him to give up the pad. No way. Look at the debate between keyed and keyless. There are innumerable reasons why keyless seems better, yet the resistance to change is huge. There are arguments about looks, tone, and "just doesn't feel right". How about size? It would make sense to carry your guitar in a case that is not much bigger than a Sax. But some put that in an Anvil Case, to make sure the whole thing weighs 100 lbs. After all some double pack the amps, Pack-Seats and whatever else they have. I think this is a ploy by some to leave the stage last and not help carry the PA equipment out, or to keep an eye on whoever books the gigs; protecting their share of the pay or whatever. Then there is the word Universal. Folks in this country of "individuals" are opposed to the word. It might as well be called "communist". All of the qualities you mention are true. So we loyal Universalists will trudge on. We have a special knowledge. It’s like owing a Mac,a BMW or a Leica and being in Texas. If the others cannot see the light, then too bad. Merry Xmas ------------------
Jon Jaffe
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Mark Metdker
Member From: North Central Texas, USA
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posted 22 December 2004 06:10 AM
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Good one Jon! That cracked me up! But there is truth in the humor, isn't there. ------------------
Zum U-12 w/True Tone pickup
G&L guitars
Peavey Nashville 112 Band Pics
http://community.webshots.com/album/176544894AuXSmi |
Joey Ace
Sysop From: Southern Ontario, Canada
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posted 22 December 2004 06:20 AM
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I like to experiment with different setups.
On a D-10 I can alter one tuning with affecting the other.(and all the above reasons, too) "Universal Loyalist!? " |
Mark Metdker
Member From: North Central Texas, USA
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posted 22 December 2004 06:23 AM
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Joey, don't hate me because I'm now a Universalist! |
Edward Prosser
Member From: Hubbard, Ohio, USA
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posted 22 December 2004 06:33 AM
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I switched from a D10/8&5 that I had been playing for 30 some yrs. to a Carter SU12/7&5 2 months age. I pondered this change for a long time but finally did it. I like challanges, I must be nuts, especially when it comes to pedal steel. My knee levers are different, the last 4 pedals on B6 are different, only one, the 4th pedal used to be my 8th. The D string is no longer where it used to be but get it with knee lever. Sitting at a single neck is alot different than sitting at a double neck, everything is closer to you. But all in all. I really like the Uni. I've played lead guitar for more yrs. than I like to admit. On the Uni. I like being able to get the lower register on the E9 and not having to flip a switch to go from neck to neck in one song. You just have sit there and get used to the changes and practice, practice, practice.------------------
Ed Prosser
Carter U/12, Nashville 112, Hilton Me262-B |
Paul King
Member From: Gainesville, Texas, USA
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posted 22 December 2004 07:14 AM
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Mark, I had a Universal guitar several years ago and I sold it. I wanted to go back to a Double 10. There have been a few changes in the last 15 years or so concerning pedal and lever pulls. I missed the 9th string that the E9th tuning has. The Universal I had did not have that string nor did it have a lever to pull to that note. The 10th string became the 9th string and the last three were setup like the last three on the C6th, therefore making the 6th tuning a B6th. I also had to hold the lever in that dropped the E notes to play the B6th tuning. I do not knock anyone for what they play and I realize you are not knocking anyone either, but the Universal has just not taken off like some thought it would. As far as weight, the Universal is lighter but I do not move mine enough to even complain about a weight problem. I look at one other thing and this is just my opinion, but most of the big name players still play a Double 10 even though some have tried the Universal tuning. The Universal tuning is a great concept and really I am surprised it has not taken off. I know Reece Anderson has played one for years, but he is the only one I can think of that has stuck with one that is a big name player. I guess it is just a matter of preference. I wish you much success with your new rig and hope it brings you as much joy playing as the steel guitar has brought me for 25 years. |
Scott Henderson
Member From: Eldon, Missouri, USA
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posted 22 December 2004 07:17 AM
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Jon you are right on brother. there are a lot of good reason to play a uni. but the main one is because it makes you happy in your playing. But we are a traditionalist community aren't we. I play both but I started on Uni and will never regret the training it gave me. When I bought a D-10 it was really no big deal going to a C6th tuning. I was told years ago by a great teacher that uni was the way to go but the mainstream would never let it progress in a way it deserves. there are a lot of issues and it would be redundant to bring them up again so I won't. Just be happy in what you play no matter what your tuning. "Size don't matter but ability does!" enough said
DON'T FORGET MY UNI BOOK COMING IN JANUARY!!!------------------
Steelin' away in the ozarks and life,
Scott
www.scottyhenderson.com |
Mark Metdker
Member From: North Central Texas, USA
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posted 22 December 2004 07:29 AM
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Scotty, I will want a copy of that book when it is ready. |
Bob Hoffnar
Member From: Brooklyn, NY
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posted 22 December 2004 07:40 AM
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1. Intonation: To many compromises with the U12 because of the mulitple functions of each lever.
2. Tone: D10's sound better to my ear.
3. Flexability: I can experiment with one tuning without screwing up the other. I have so many more options with 20 strings that I find more easy to play new and non-traditional music on the D10.
4. Simplicity: On a D10 I look down at the neck and it is all layed out. The U12 involves thinking in a couple extra layers for me.
5. Weight: The weight difference between a D10 and a U12 from the same builder is about 4 to 5 LBS. With a U12 on a full frame the difference is nothing.I played a U12 for 5 years before I even owned a D10. Once I started bumping into some deeper professional and creative demands the U12 did not cut it in my case. I personally find the U12's design (at least the E9/B6 tuning. The Bb6 looks sorta cool to me. ) to be primarily to replicate the more typical roles of of the E9 and C6 tuning without the flexability,sound or depth of either. Its like with a D10 you have a quick little sports car or a pickup truck to use depending on your needs. With a U12 you have a mini van. ------------------
Bob
intonation help
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Rick Schmidt
Member From: Carlsbad, CA. USA
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posted 22 December 2004 08:12 AM
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I would like to have a U12 for sure, but can't afford one in the foreseeable future. I do however have a D12 10+6 that I've extended and tweeked so far, that it's almost like having 2 universals. Heavy? Yes, but now more than ever I'm not so sure that I'd be happy with just one tuning. |
Pete Burak
Member From: Portland, OR USA
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posted 22 December 2004 08:22 AM
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Bob,
As far as you have come in the steel world since your first go round with an S12U, I would like to see you sit down at a pro model S12U and lett'er rip!
I bet if you had one to kick around on you would be impressed with what you could do on an S12U with your current playing abilities and copedant knowledge.
Just a thought.
FWIW, For me, the S12U is the 'Vette of the industry, with the D10 being the 18 wheeler.
Pete B.
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Roger Rettig
Member From: NAPLES, FL
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posted 22 December 2004 08:32 AM
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If I had the spare cash, I'd seriously consider having a 'universal' of some kind sitting around at home so I could explore its possibilities.But I couldn't even consider making a sudden switch - I know my way around on the D10, and this is how I make my living. It would mean quitting for maybe a matter of months while I assimmilated all the differences in the 'new' tuning, and I've yet to be convinced that I'd be better off with a U12. I've heard 'uni' players accomplish similar stuff to a D10 on their guitars, but I haven't heard them play anything that can't be acheived on a D10! The weight issue is a minor one - a 12-string is still heavy, right? Anyway, I've long since switched to a two-piece case, so that problem's dealt with. I'd like to experiment with an extended E9 for those low notes(I enjoy tinkering) but I don't see that I'd gain much over my present choice. RR[This message was edited by Roger Rettig on 22 December 2004 at 10:05 AM.] |
Dave Zirbel
Member From: Sebastopol, CA USA
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posted 22 December 2004 08:36 AM
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I just made the change to a S12U from playing D-10s for 15 years. I wish I would have started on the S12U a long time ago. The only difference is the two extra strings. All the changes and pulls I have on my D-10 are the S12U.Happy Holidays. ------------------
Dave Zirbel-
ZB Custom D-10 8 x 5, S-12U Kline 7 x6, Dobro Cyclops reissue, 1967 Fender Telecaster, Webb 6-14E, Fender Super Reverb
The Mother Truckers
The Cowlicks
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Donny Hinson
Member From: Balto., Md. U.S.A.
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posted 22 December 2004 09:37 AM
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I'm happy you are pleased with your universal. But personally, I wouldn't have one.Most of my reasons why I don't like them are the same as Bob's, and in addition, maintaining proper intonation is somewhat more difficult.
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Howard Tate
Member From: Leesville, Louisiana, USA
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posted 22 December 2004 09:57 AM
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Interesting thread. I started on a Maverick, and hated it. It sat in a closet for a while until I got a pro steel. I've almost always had 12 strings, lately I've been wishing I had a d10 to try for a while. I will not trade my Zum for one, in case I don't like it at all, so it probably will not happen.------------------
Howard, 'Les Paul Recording, Zum S12U, Vegas 400, Boss ME-5, Boss DM-3
http://www.Charmedmusic.com |
Jim Cohen
Member From: Philadelphia, PA
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posted 22 December 2004 10:34 AM
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(deleted)[This message was edited by Jim Cohen on 23 December 2004 at 09:13 AM.] |
Jon Jaffe
Member From: Austin, Texas
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posted 22 December 2004 10:49 AM
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Well, as Mark Twain said this is what makes horse races.
Bob, you are absolutely right. Over the past 25 years I have run out of notes and combinations. I am tired of hearing my son say “cool” when I sit in with his "Death Metal” band, because the Universal will not make any new sounds. I also hate the fact that my entire rig will fit in a Miata. And I believe that you have pointed out yourself that intonation is a psychomotor skill that can be practiced (and mastered with the right CD). However, I am not certain about the automobile analogy. What is there in a doubleneck that is small and agile like a sports car? To those of us who embrace the universal concept, the doubleneck is like an Escalade with a brush guard, nerfbars and a winch; all extras that are nice, but just not needed.
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John McGann
Member From: Boston, Massachusetts, USA
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posted 22 December 2004 10:54 AM
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So far in my steel journey, I really enjoy the discreet characteristics of each neck on the D10. It IS more to learn, but each tuning has it's own unique logic. In a way, it is like learning two different instruments, maybe like baritone and tenor sax...the notes are in different places, but the physical approach is almost the same.I also really like the ability of adding changes without affecting the other neck. I can see the strengths of the various uni setups, but I feel like there is no compromise with an extended D10. YMMV should be included on every post in this Forum! ------------------
http://www.johnmcgann.com
Info for musicians, transcribers, technique tips and fun stuff. Joaquin Murphey transcription book, Rhythm Tuneup DVD and more...
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Pete Burak
Member From: Portland, OR USA
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posted 22 December 2004 11:11 AM
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In my opinion (having been there, done that), Jeff Newman and Joe Wright have all the S12U instructional material a person would need to get the show on the road for a new player on an S12U. Further, I think the expierienced D10 players are underestimating themselves, as I believe they would be able to sit down at an S12U and immediatly wail on it! Having 6 string non-pedal, 8 string Fender 400, 10 string ShoBud Pro-1, and at least one S12U set up in my basement at most all times, I assure you expierienced players, you would adjust to the extra strings, string spacing, intonation, (insert any and all negatives you forsee) in a matter of minutes to a few hours at most. I would say you could gig on an S12U tonight if you had one in front of you this afternoon for a few hours. I sit in on D10's fairly regulalry, so I can't imagine you would be any more uncomfortable than me. Like any new endeavor, approach it with total confidence, and the skill to back it up, and you'll be jammin'! With that said, I certainly respect your decisions to pass on the S12U. |
Chris Schlotzhauer
Member From: Colleyville, Tx. USA
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posted 22 December 2004 11:12 AM
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I've very happy with my extra arm rest. |
Reece Anderson
Member From: Keller Texas USA
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posted 22 December 2004 11:21 AM
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The unique sound characteristics and the ability to personalize one's own guitar relative to setup, number of necks, strings, and etc. are things which insure the future of steel guitar. What other instrument offers the possibility of such variations which provide the opportunity of individual creativity.............. I believe the future of steel guitar has never been brighter. |
Jay Jessup
Member From: Charlottesville, VA, USA
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posted 22 December 2004 11:41 AM
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Pete's right. I made the switch after playing D-10 for four years, I was playing five nights a week and when my S-12 came in I noodled with it for a few days and then just started playing the S-12 on gigs, quite a few rough spots the first couple of nights but it didn't take long to get back to normal. Even playing the 12 full time however I found that whenever I sat down on a D-10 I had come home, the 10 strings just fit my hands better. My main reason for switching was that I thought it would help me create my own style, yet I found I still thought in terms of E9 or C6 so it didn't really do that for me. Twenty years of hindsight now tells me that style needed to come from within me not my guitar. Looking back on those years I see the biggest advantage the S-12 gave me (I used a single frame) was the space to have a guitar or banjo in my lap (I doubled on 40-60% of our material back then) without having to reach too far to play the front neck.
I agree with Bob's comment on intonation as the compromises I made to get the guitar to sound good with itself meant that in the B6'th mode I couldn't use many open strings cause they were too flat to sound in tune with the rest of the band. These days I tune a little closer to straight up so maybe that would be less of a problem if I adapted that approach to a twelve string tuning.
I still have my 82 Zum 12 and use it to experiment on but D-10 is what I play these days, I've been both places and it just feels right for me. There's no right or wrong here, nor is there some conspiracy foisted on the steel community by 'the establishment' or the builders and I commend all of you thread particpants so far in keeping this a civil discussion. |
Leslie Ehrlich
Member From: Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada
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posted 22 December 2004 12:29 PM
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D-uh... I don't know. Good question. A 'U' would be a lot easier to haul around. |
Bobby Lee
Sysop From: Cloverdale, North California, USA
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posted 22 December 2004 12:41 PM
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I like the 9th string D on the E9th. As a matter of fact, I like it so much that I also have it on my C6th!
I rarely see the need to drop below low E in any of the music I play. A 12 string E9th suits my needs much better than a Universal.
I currently play a D-12, but I don't play the C6th very much.------------------
 Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra SD-12 (Ext E9), Williams D-12 Crossover, Sierra S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, C6, A6) |
Jim Cohen
Member From: Philadelphia, PA
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posted 22 December 2004 12:43 PM
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Well I'm glad to hear that converting to U12 is easier than I feared. Maybe I should try it someday. Anybody got a spare one they want to lend me for a few months? |
Earnest Bovine
Member From: Los Angeles CA USA
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posted 22 December 2004 12:50 PM
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quote:
I rarely see the need to drop below low E in any of the music I play. A 12 string E9th suits my needs much better than a Universal
Same here, and when I need to go lower than E, I use this newfangled contraption called a "pedal" that lowers the pitch of my low string. |
Dave Van Allen
Member From: Doylestown, PA , US , Earth
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posted 22 December 2004 12:53 PM
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quote:
Why aren't you playing a Universal guitar?
'cause I am at work? 'cause I'm Christmas shopping? 'cause I'm building Legos with my boy? 'cause I'm on the Internet? 'cause I'm watchin' TV? 'cause I'm doin' honeydews? 'cause I'm playin' the ZB tonight? quote:
Anybody got a spare one they want to lend me for a few months?
No. I ain't that busy.... |
Jon Light
Member From: Brooklyn, NY
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posted 22 December 2004 01:04 PM
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quote:
and when I need to go lower than E, I use this newfangled contraption called a "pedal" that lowers the pitch of my low string
 pe.....dal....? Fascinating. Please explain. |
Howard Tate
Member From: Leesville, Louisiana, USA
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posted 22 December 2004 01:09 PM
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The main reason I thought I might like a D10 instead of my U12, I keep getting tabs that are written for E9. I should be able to figure it out for the U12, but I'm not the smartest guy in town. I pretty much learned on the bandstand, and while I played a lot of gigs, I always had to switch to six string, so anything that was hard for me on steel, I just switched to guitar. As an aside, I sat in front Of Bill Stafford and it looked like he had 30 or 40 strings to me. He will make you want a 14.------------------
Howard, 'Les Paul Recording, Zum S12U, Vegas 400, Boss ME-5, Boss DM-3
http://www.Charmedmusic.com |
Gord Cole
Member From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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posted 22 December 2004 02:17 PM
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quote:
and if you're lucky enough to live close enough to a steel teacher, chances are over 95% that they play S10 or D10, so you won't find much help.
To the contrary...The E9/B6 Universal and I have had many excellent and HELPFUL lessons with Burke Carroll, Bob Taillefer and Al Brisco who all play D10. Teachers have not been a problem as far as I'm concerned, I'd be suspect of a teacher who couldn't readily translate a lesson to the B6. Lessons at a level much more advanced than my capabilities I can't comment !?!?
I love the hours I spend on my Universal!
Cheers
--Gord |
Garth Highsmith
Member From:
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posted 22 December 2004 02:20 PM
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.[This message was edited by Garth Highsmith on 09 January 2006 at 08:41 PM.] |
Mark Metdker
Member From: North Central Texas, USA
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posted 22 December 2004 04:08 PM
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Most of what I do on steel is E9 stuff. But, I will occasionally need that other tuning......key word...occasionally. For my needs, NOT having the bulk of the extra neck is great. If however I played in a jazz band, I might feel differently about the S12U. But I don't think so. Heck, I got by with the little BMI S-10 for quite a while.Seems to me everything you need in a steel is there, in a much more compact version. A D-10 looks much more impressive on stage though!
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Travis Bernhardt
Member From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
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posted 22 December 2004 09:28 PM
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I started on an Extended E9, which I then had converted to a stripped down Universal. I miss the D string. I do use the low notes, so for me, a thirteen string or fourteen string guitar (and extra LOW E would be nice) would be the way to go if I wanted a single neck tuning. With a fourteen string universal that included the D string, I could probably be happy (I'd probably have the D string go to C# with the E>D# lever). I don't really know about tone and weight issues, and I can't see how the intonation thing would be any more of an issue than it already is (A+F position, anyone?), but I do think that flexibility is a key argument in favor of the double-neck. Being able to change stuff around without screwing up your knee lever configuration sounds pretty good to me. And if you have lots of pedals and knee levers, that could get impractical on a U12--if you have so many that you need to switch to a center cluster for the "6th tuning" changes, then why not just play a double neck? At any rate, my current take is that I think anybody getting a Universal should strongly consider a thirteen or fourteen string guitar, so as to get the D string back. If you did that, the issues about pedal setup flexibility would still matter, but might not tip the scales towards getting a double-neck, which I presently believe they do. -Travis |
Michael Johnstone
Member From: Sylmar,Ca. USA
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posted 23 December 2004 01:31 AM
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U-12s are a much more complete tuning - it's just that simple.It ties up all the loose ends and shortcomings of both necks. All that crap about the missing D string(just a pedal stroke away),tuning compromises etc,etc are just excuses for all you D-10 guys not jumping off the cliff. I deferred making the switch for many years and all I got now are regrets for waiting all those years to make that move.Now that I've done it and it's been 10 years now - I'm playing more music,playing deeper in the changes,traveling lighter and thinking more coherently within my tuning as I play.I'm less of a "steel player" and more of a MUSICIAN. What's amazing to me is that these things are still being debated by people who are smart enough to play steel and analize copedants in the first place.
-MJ- |
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