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  2nd string and 9th string lower (Page 3)

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Author Topic:   2nd string and 9th string lower
Craig A Davidson
Member

From: Wisconsin Rapids, Wisconsin USA

posted 17 January 2006 03:06 AM     profile     
If the band leader is that good he can tell what a guy is playing , maybe he should be the steel player. I don't think it's such a big deal. I would play it the best I could and be done with it. In the first place I wouldn't work in a band that dictates that much.

[This message was edited by Craig A Davidson on 17 January 2006 at 03:07 AM.]

Kevin Hatton
Member

From: Amherst, N.Y.

posted 17 January 2006 07:20 AM     profile     
Craig, thats why your not in an award winning band booked a year in advance. Its called attention to detail.
Larry Bell
Member

From: Englewood, Florida

posted 17 January 2006 07:53 AM     profile     
It's called (in my circles) being A HUMAN JUKEBOX. Reminds me of those human 'sculptures' in Las Vegas.

If parroting records turns your crank and pads your wallet, more power to you. Neither that nor being steadily booked gives you the right to denigrate those of us who choose to play music that allows us to create our own parts on the bandstand and -- God forbid -- maybe actually WING IT on a solo once in a while.

Sheeeeeesh!

Donny Hinson
Member

From: Balto., Md. U.S.A.

posted 17 January 2006 08:36 AM     profile     
Ditto.
Bobby Lee
Sysop

From: Cloverdale, North California, USA

posted 17 January 2006 08:41 AM     profile     
Tony Prior: That little clip sounded really good. If it wasn't played in those positions on the radio, maybe it should have been. The obvious half-stop on the lower sounded very cool indeed.

There have always been musicians who play for pleasure and musicians who play for living. Advances in the art come from extremely dedicated players in both camps. Sometimes those innovations are used on pop records. More often they are not.

On the pedal steel, we heard the giants of innovation on country records as the instrument evolved. After a while, country music simply dropped the C6th - it was too advanced for the audience.

Today, the full potential of the E9th is rarely heard on country records. You also don't hear the full potential of the fiddle, or the full potential of the bass. It would simply be too advanced for the listening audience.

Does this mean that we should abandon the hard-earned advances of the great steel guitar innovators? I don't think so! I for one will keep those C# notes on my E9th forever, as I find them extremely useful in all kinds of music.

And as Tony's excellent clip demonstrates, there is nothing in the "sound" of the 2nd string lower that is incompatible with the "sound" of "today's country". The inertia of a few players' personal styles is all that keeps it off the radio.

------------------
Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6)   My Blog

Herb Steiner
Member

From: Cedar Valley, Travis County TX

posted 17 January 2006 09:07 AM     profile     
I've always made a differentiation between "cover bands" and "copy bands."

Cover bands learn the popular tunes for dance audiences, some older, many newer or current. But they don't necessarily play the music note-for-note, vocal inflection for vocal inflection... instead, they add their own personality to the tune, and in some small way make it "their version."

OTOH, copy bands... or the people running them... are preoccupied with the idea that the listening public will not accept any creativity or originality and only seek jukebox and radio recreations played by warm bodies.

I've played in both. I prefer cover bands by far. I've always felt that a copy band approach always begs the comparison to the original recorded version, and there's no way ANY copy band, even with the best musicians in the land, can beat that. So why try to shoot for "almost as good?"

Remember the various Beatles cover bands, and the Elvis impersonators? Even the best of them weren't the Beatles or Elvis, only imitations. Does anyone remember their disappointment when they purchased a compilation of great country tunes by "the Original Artists," only to discover that "the Original Artists" was the name of the group of studio pickers hired to recreate the music someone else made into a hit?

On the financial side, copy bands can and do get a lot of work. Weddings and private parties can pay very well. And occasionally these groups find work as opening acts at smaller concerts and shows, since the promoters of shows know that they won't 1) outrage or bore the audience with unfamiliar material, since it's the headliners the patrons came to see anyway, and 2) proficient copy bands ARE more entertaining than a DJ or recorded music.

On bigger shows, the opening acts are almost always upcoming artists with original material placed on the show to get increased exposure for greater recognition, not as a space/time filler.

This mini-rant is no slam on pickers working in copy bands. Any way a musician can make a living nowadays is okay by me and not subject to my criticism of his choices. Playing in a copy band is still better, hopefully, than working a crap day job.

In my world, cover bands are basically interpreters. Copy bands are basically imitators. If I'm incorrect in this, someone please enlighten me.

------------------
Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association


[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 17 January 2006 at 09:13 AM.]

Gene Jones
Member

From: Oklahoma City, OK USA

posted 17 January 2006 09:29 AM     profile     
*


[This message was edited by Gene Jones on 17 January 2006 at 11:40 AM.]

Tony Prior
Member

From: Charlotte NC

posted 17 January 2006 11:04 AM     profile     
b0b, thanks for the nice comments..

I have inertia ?

Is that a good thing or a bad thing ?


Kevin, our band is booked 9 months to a year out as well...but I still use the 2nd string lowers( both of them) and the 9th lower...

We can play things pretty close..actually closer than that if we choose to..but not so absolutely perfect as to forget why we do it...

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 17 January 2006 at 11:39 AM.]

Drew Howard
Member

From: Mason, MI, U.S.A.

posted 17 January 2006 11:21 AM     profile     
quote:
"I hear alot of really simple playing on these recordings (sorry Paul)."

Well, that's your opinion. Bet it took a lot of nerve to type.

And the point of this thread was what?

Drew

------------------

Drew Howard - website - Fessenden guitars, 70's Fender Twin, etc.


[This message was edited by Drew Howard on 17 January 2006 at 12:33 PM.]

[This message was edited by Drew Howard on 17 January 2006 at 12:36 PM.]

Herb Steiner
Member

From: Cedar Valley, Travis County TX

posted 17 January 2006 11:25 AM     profile     
Tony, I prefer to call inertia "being kinetically challenged." It's softer, more *feel-good.*

BTW, I'm booked out nine months in advance as well. My next gig is sometime in October.

But seriously, your quote "but not so absolutely perfect to forget why we do it..." is right to the heart of the matter. Music is an art when it's passionately felt and "owned" by the player, even if the tune originally was someone else's. Good writing.

------------------
Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association


Kevin Hatton
Member

From: Amherst, N.Y.

posted 17 January 2006 08:12 PM     profile     
Larry, no where did I denigrate players of improved music. But the fact is that a well rehearsed copy band will out sell an improv country band every day of the week. I think Herb summed it perfectly. There is a marketing difference. My audience wants to hear the hits arranged and played as they are heard on the radio. They are not interested at all in MY interepetaion of "Tequillia Makes Her Clothes Fall Off". We do original material also so there is some leeway. Its like when the Nashville road acts come up here. Most but not all will play their hits exactly as recorded. We played with Joe Diffie and his arrangements were EXACT to the recordings. Most all other Nashville road acts were the same way. Some do not. This forum is for open dicussion and to make people think. If it was up to me I would play in a band that allows more musical creativity, but those bands just don't make any money and most I hear are undiciplined, poorly arranged and boring. Getting back to the point of this thread, I still maintain that those two changes are largely unecessary (but not totally) unecessary in today's top 40 country music, and yes alot of the steel playing on those songs is very simple steel guitar 101. Think about "Honky Tonk Bedonk" by Trace Adkins". A song I totally despise but is constantly requested by our audience. Its not even country. Its Blues. Those changes went largely unused in the sixties also which was my favorite era of steel guitar used in country music. Herb Steinar, you have great insight. I understand all your arguments. I'm not trying to offend Paul or anyone else here. He knows me. Just telling it like it is in today's top 40 country. I wish it was different. I'd be the first one to join a western swing band or traditional country band if it was good and could sell. When I hear a great steel ride on a song I'm the first one in my band to request that we do it. We do a version of "Dead Flowers" by The Rolling Stones that I think is totally opposite of the copy band thing and is totally creative. So I'm not locked in all the time. Others also.

[This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 17 January 2006 at 08:16 PM.]

[This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 17 January 2006 at 08:19 PM.]

[This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 17 January 2006 at 08:21 PM.]

John Bechtel
Member

From: Nashville, Tennessee,U.S.A.

posted 17 January 2006 08:33 PM     profile     
The Knee~Lever change Lowering strings #2 & #10 (1-tone) and #9 (˝-tone) was put on my new PSG on the advise of John Hughey! That sounds like a pretty modern/up-to-date change to me! It opens a whole new world of chord structures!

------------------
“Big John” Bechtel
’05 D–10 Derby – (6 & 8)
’65 Re-Issue Fender Twin–Reverb Custom™ 15”
Current Equipment
Newest Steel

Kevin Hatton
Member

From: Amherst, N.Y.

posted 17 January 2006 08:49 PM     profile     
Tony, thanks for that sound clip. I REALLY enjoyed that. Makes me think differently.
Tony Prior
Member

From: Charlotte NC

posted 18 January 2006 01:29 AM     profile     
delete

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 19 January 2006 at 04:47 AM.]

Bill Hankey
Member

From: Pittsfield, MA, USA

posted 18 January 2006 10:18 AM     profile     

A mocking bird is known to memorize over 50 other bird calls or songs. How wonderful it would be if we could do the same on steel guitar. Even if it were possible, the dream of hearing something fresh and new should be kept alive.

Bill Hankey

Terry Edwards
Member

From: Layton, UT

posted 18 January 2006 11:11 AM     profile     
Bill Hankey, your posts are wonderful and thought provoking. Nice to see you back here.

Terry

Herb Steiner
Member

From: Cedar Valley, Travis County TX

posted 18 January 2006 12:21 PM     profile     
quote:
A mocking bird is known to memorize over 50 other bird calls or songs. How wonderful it would be if we could do the same on steel guitar.

I can do a bobwhite, a chuckwill's widow, a Mexican jay, and a woodpecker, but that's about it for the bird calls. You think I could turn 'em into a course?

Only kidding w'ya Bill. Glad to see you back.

------------------
Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association


Bobby Lee
Sysop

From: Cloverdale, North California, USA

posted 18 January 2006 01:11 PM     profile     
I'd buy a course of "Steel Guitar Sound Effects", Herb. Birds, trains, car wrecks, laughter, what have you. I'm serious.

I want those sounds to be a close to the real thing as possible. It's what the audience expects from the working steel guitarist. I've heard that a famous steel player once flunked a Grand Ole Opry audition because he didn't do a train whistle right.

------------------
Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6)   My Blog

John De Maille
Member

From: Merrick,N.Y. U.S.A.

posted 18 January 2006 01:57 PM     profile     
Kevin,
This is not an answer to your question, just my speculation. I've never heard you play, but, I'll bet you're good, and I applaud your effort in a copy band. I've never been in a "copy band". Never worked with any musicians, who were dedicated to take the time to learn note for note. I, in fact, can't play with the expertise the super pro's have, but, I have fun getting close to them. I have the 2nd string full tone drop on my steels. I like the unison sounds I get with using it and the "A" pedal. Been using it for years, it's handy. But, I can't remember actually if I've heard it a lot in modern recordings. I don't have the 9th string change lower. I don't have a 9th D note on my U-12 anyway. I do raise it from B to D, though. What I'm getting at is, if you feel you don't need those changes because of the music you play, then don't worry about it. Obviously, you're doing great without the changes. You could always set up another steel with them on it and experiment to your hearts content and maybe sneak a lick or two in and see what happens. Nothing ventured- nothing gained!!
It's an iteresting post and has made us all think a little bit about how much do we actually need on a steel. I just recently added the 1st and 2nd string raises ( Eb to E and F# to G# ) on my steels. I also added the 5th string B to Bb and the 6th string G# to F#. Did I need them, actually ? I don't know for sure, but, they're really cool changes, that I like to use now. The band I play in, plays mostly older country 70's - 90's, and a lot of times it's straight forward playing without a lot of room to wiggle. But, if I get a chance to show off, using "my new changes", I do. Please don't take offense from an old hack like me, I'm just adding some thoughts and experiences.
Kevin Hatton
Member

From: Amherst, N.Y.

posted 18 January 2006 04:50 PM     profile     
I hope this thread inspires one of the masters to put out an instructional on 2nd and 9th string lowers. I've never seen one and the steel community could very much use it. I'm going to be looking into these changes more because of this thread.
John McGann
Member

From: Boston, Massachusetts, USA

posted 18 January 2006 06:11 PM     profile     
Kevin- earlier in this thread I mentioned "Trappin' Squirrels" Catfish John tape that is all about the 2nd string 1/2 and whole step lowers. Lots of cool ideas.

About $10. Got mine from Frenchy in New Mexico.

------------------
http://www.johnmcgann.com
Info for musicians, transcribers, technique tips and fun stuff. Joaquin Murphey transcription book, Rhythm Tuneup DVD and more...

[This message was edited by John McGann on 18 January 2006 at 06:12 PM.]

Kevin Hatton
Member

From: Amherst, N.Y.

posted 18 January 2006 07:03 PM     profile     
Thanks John.
Craig A Davidson
Member

From: Wisconsin Rapids, Wisconsin USA

posted 19 January 2006 02:57 AM     profile     
(Craig, that's why your not in an award winning band booked a year in advance. Its called attention to detail)

I call it something else and it starts with the letter "A". If you half to play that close it takes all the feel out of everything and makes it to mechanical. I guess I don't remember seeing you guys on any music award shows, though I might have missed it. Or seen you in any music publications either. I still wouldn't let some schmo dictate how or what I should play. If you are that good I hope you got people to carry your gear for you. If you don't use that change unhook the darn thing and go on with life. Fretting over some little thing like that will make you old in a hurry.

[This message was edited by Craig A Davidson on 19 January 2006 at 02:59 AM.]

Tony Prior
Member

From: Charlotte NC

posted 19 January 2006 04:47 AM     profile     
regarding that little clip...early in the phrasing uses the 2nd string Raise, natural and 1/2 step lower..

then in the ending phrase, is the full tone lower...

I don't think this stuff is magic or anything that requires intense study. It comes from seat time.

I think it's more of an undestanding of the scale phrasing and what they offer .The more we sit and poke around with these options and work them into our comfort zone the more they will become part of the AUTO PILOT mode.

Although I am probably the last in line to proclaim any proficiency with these OPTIONS, I do have several that I use which just show up..no thought...

I have always been one to side with the camp thats says..Don't learn licks...learn where they come from...understand what these little ditty's do...and I am not talking about the music theory note for note..I have no clue what the actual notes are, I don't even care...just the understanding of the tonal applications..if that makes any sense..

I recall taking some very advanced Guitar lessons from NE Guitar Guru, Link Chamberlain, now deceased, he told me once..

All of the notes in the scale..theres probably only 1 or 2 that are really offensive,the rest you can probably use all the time..the trick is to know which ones !

If we think of Knee Levers and Pedals as doing what our fingers do on the guitar fretbard it may change the way we approaach things. raise a note, move a finger, lower a note, move a finger..

keyboard..raise a note..play a black key ..

the 2nd string brings home some very powerful stuff..but we may just have to sit and "work thru it"...I don't see this stuff as licks..I see them as optional ways of redundency but with a different feel...and from a different position...

seat time..not tab...

The 9th string..

Everyone here , me too..one of the first things we learn is to mash pedal A and raise the bottom string along with the B pedal to get that chord..strings 10,8 and 6...the B string gets an UP pull to get to the resolution note.

the 9th lower, basically does the exact same thing, it is a Lower to the same note as on the 10th sting with Pedal A.. Lower to the note on the 9th instead of raising to the note on the 10th...

exactly the same, just different !

obviously there are numerous other applications but this is the most basic..

It's an optional way to get to the same note in the scale..

t

Franklin
Member

From:

posted 19 January 2006 06:26 AM     profile     
Kevin,

As I said earlier, I use and have used this lever in the studio whether your ears can hear it or not.

No offense, I am surprised and puzzled. You said you can play exactly like the record and can copy Buddy note for note. Why do you need a lesson to teach the function of a lever that changes the notes to a pentatonic scale?

Here's a defintion to clarify the importance of this change in Todays Country which is more rock and 80's pop than anything else. Every rock, blues, and pop guitarist will confirm that the solo sound for this type of music requires using the pentatonic and blues scales.

I have always thought of this lever as the pentaonic scale lever and it is as important to me in that scale as the A and B pedals are to finding the proper positions for the major scale, which is why I use it when I play solos that rock. Without this change finding easy positions across the fretboard becomes much more difficult.

In the key of C, at the 8th fret, activate the lever lowering the 2nd string a whole tone and the 9th string a 1/2 tone (the pentatonic lever) and pick the strings in this order to hear the sound of a descending scale, 3-1-4-2-5-6-7-8-9-10.

Now leave the lever activated and also activate the "B" pedal with it and pick the same pattern for the F chord scale.

Now repeat the same picking sequence while activating the lever that lowers the E's to Eb along with the "pentatonic" lever and the "B" pedal for the G chord scale. Those pedal combinations work all the way up the neck connecting scale positions.

Without moving the bar you get the 1, 4, and 5 chord scales utilizing every string on the instrument. The simplicity and easy access to these popular notes should be clear to everyone who understands rock and blues why this lever is very important in todays musical world.

To sum this thing up......Pedals change open tuned notes by intervals into another tuning or scale depending on how the instrument is viewed. In musical terms stating that a pedal changing all the strings into a pentatonic scale is useless is a misguided concept.

Paul

Al Terhune
Member

From: Newcastle, WA

posted 19 January 2006 06:48 AM     profile     
Kevin -- I like your attitude. I've watched your opinion change slightly if not moderately on this subject, and I must say I respect you for that, brother. I've had my opinions swayed and changed a number of times from keeping an open mind.

Al

John Steele
Member

From: Renfrew, Ontario, Canada

posted 19 January 2006 07:33 AM     profile     
If I may be so bold....

Paul Franklin's intro and turnarounds on "Designated Drinker" use the 2nd string whole tone lower.

-John

Bill Hankey
Member

From: Pittsfield, MA, USA

posted 19 January 2006 07:37 AM     profile     

Both 2nd and 9th strings render attainable 7th triad chords. The potentialities of chord melodies combined with the finesses required to maintain exactable and desirous musical renditions, imparts supporting roles in the necessary usages of both 2nd and 9th changes. Glissando and vibrato most
assuredly will add the "turn heads"
potential to the changes in this discussion.

Bill

Bobby Lee
Sysop

From: Cloverdale, North California, USA

posted 19 January 2006 08:51 AM     profile     
I play a lot of rock and blues. I use the lever a lot for pentatonic scales in those kinds of music, as Paul described. The use of the lever is not obvious to the ear, but it is necessary for most of my fast pentatonic run patterns.

Where is it used in "today's country"? I think that much of what people hear as lead/slide guitar on the radio is probably Paul Franklin or Sonny Garrish using some good distortion and this lever. That's how I hear it, anyway.

------------------
Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6)   My Blog

Dave Zirbel
Member

From: Sebastopol, CA USA

posted 19 January 2006 09:08 AM     profile     
I tune my 9th to a C# and raise it to D with the 2nd string lower to to D. I like to lower the 2nd to a C# when lowering the E's to Eb. It's like the C6 with a D on top. Tons of cool licks, but I don't play current Top 40 hits.

DZ

Kevin Hatton
Member

From: Amherst, N.Y.

posted 19 January 2006 09:38 AM     profile     
Paul, that was one of the most valuable posts
I've seen on this forum. Thanks. I'll bet it helped more people than just me here. I'm printing that post out as I type this and I'm going to be looking at these changes for the next couple of weeks and seeing if I could fit them in somewhere in our material. This is interesting and very valuable info. Thinking of that lever as a pentatonic lever changes things in my mind.

[This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 19 January 2006 at 09:41 AM.]

Steve Zinno
Member

From: Spring City, Pennsylvania, USA

posted 19 January 2006 10:07 AM     profile     
Paul, great post, very illustrative (to me). If your instructional materials are as good as this post, it appears I should buy all of it. Many thanks.

------------------
steve z.

Jim Eaton
Member

From: Santa Susana, Ca

posted 19 January 2006 11:13 AM     profile     
Thank you for that post Paul. A great explination of those combinations and their use. A very "Jeff Newmanish" gem IMHO.
JE:-)>
John McGann
Member

From: Boston, Massachusetts, USA

posted 19 January 2006 01:14 PM     profile     
Paul- Thanks for sharing that pentatonic insight. It's amazing what we DON'T see, and how obvious it is once we DO see it. I laughed when I sat down and tried it out- NOW it seems obvious!

Thanks so much for taking the time to share this information with us. You da man!

------------------
http://www.johnmcgann.com
Info for musicians, transcribers, technique tips and fun stuff. Joaquin Murphey transcription book, Rhythm Tuneup DVD and more...

Franklin
Member

From:

posted 19 January 2006 08:37 PM     profile     
Thanks guys.

Seeing the pedals in musical terms helps open doors.

Here is a correction to be made within my original post. The G7th scale only needs the pentatonic lever and the E's to Eb lever activated for the correct pentatonic scale over a "G" chord at the 8th fret.

When the B pedal is added, as I posted earlier this morning, it adds the notes of the blues scale which also works well over a G7th chord.

Bob, You have great ears. I get to play alot of distorted steel. The lever is priceless.

Paul

[This message was edited by Franklin on 20 January 2006 at 04:39 AM.]

Bobby Lee
Sysop

From: Cloverdale, North California, USA

posted 19 January 2006 08:45 PM     profile     
I bet that "utility" guys like Kevin are covering those lines on guitar instead of steel.
Franklin
Member

From:

posted 19 January 2006 09:04 PM     profile     
Bob,

It happens all the time.

Paul

[This message was edited by Franklin on 20 January 2006 at 04:41 AM.]

Tony Prior
Member

From: Charlotte NC

posted 20 January 2006 03:30 AM     profile     
Elvis..is IN the building ....

t

Bill Hankey
Member

From: Pittsfield, MA, USA

posted 20 January 2006 08:27 AM     profile     

Chet Atkins once said, " I wish that I could play it twice the same way." Connie Smith's "I'll Come Running" presented a serious challenge to those who are fond of
emulating steel guitar greats. Having the ability to succeed in this endeavor is very impressive.
A lot depends on the individual seated at the steel guitar. Knee levers play a huge part in getting those elusive sounds heard in recordings, including both 2nd and
9th changes. Still, without the hands of Franklin, Emmons, Green, Myrick, and many others, the work is unfinished.

Bill


Kevin Hatton
Member

From: Amherst, N.Y.

posted 20 January 2006 09:05 AM     profile     
I want to again thank Paul Franklin for taking the time to come on this forum and answer our questions. His depth of knowledge goes far beyond most of us here. His answers are extremely helpful.

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