posted 28 August 2001 08:03 PM         

First, why use minor scales and ideas over other chord types? Why not just use the scales for those types of chords? Personally, I also use that approach, since it suggests a more intimate connection with the accompanying chords as they go by. It's easier to think of the chord tones for D7 if you are playing a D7 type scale. But people that use the "Minor Conversion" approach exclusively also maintain a pretty good connection with the changing chords by learning to see the required chord shapes within their chosen minor scale. They may play an A minor scale type, while seeing a D7 chord shape from time to time, hitting key tones from it. Personally, I find that I am likely to find very different ideas with the two approaches. I go back and forth between them in my playing. What is interesting is to find ways of using ideas that you already know in one chord type over other chord types. I'm still getting my basic scale knowledge down on steel, but like a lot of guitar players I may have more of a propensity for minor based ideas. It's great to find ways of using your minor pentatonic, blues scale, and dorian (minor 7th) ideas in other contexts. There is also the issue of continuity, especially over fast passages. If you can come out of the same melodic framework over more than one chord, you can maintain a high level of emotion and conceptual continuity. This can be especially helpful over the ii-V7 progression, which to me requires a high degree of dynamic awareness.

Many of us are familiar with how you can play minor ideas over a major chord with a root a step and a half up. This is the basic "relative minor" relationship. So, I won't say anything about that. Let me just give a few of the ways that I have been using the "Minor Conversion" concept over ii-V7 situations. For brevity, I'm going to have to assume a basic knowledge of the major scale modes, and to a lesser extent, the modes of the melodic and harmonic minor scales.

1. Over the ii (minor 7th chord) of a standard ii-V7, one can play the minor pentatonic, blues scale (minor pent. with the additional b5 note), or dorian mode. Of course with time, all kinds of passing tones present themselves in addition to these basic scales. Over the V7 chord, one can still play these same ideas rooted on the same root as the ii chord, although it is helpful to sometimes think a little more in terms of a minor 6th chord, since this will give the major third tone of the V7 chord. (Very important.) This is why I've become very interested in playing a minor pentatonic scale that consists of the 1,2,b3,5,and 6 tones, instead of the usual min. pent., which gives more of a 7th sus 4 sound when used over the V chord. (Remember that ii6th = V9th with no root.)

2.In a similar situation, if it is desired to get the +4 tone over the V7 chord, (very common slightly "out" sound,) one can use the melodic minor scale, based on the root of the ii chord. The natural 7th of the mel. minor converts to the +4 of the V7.

3.If one wants to play over a V7 chord with altered 9th and/or 5th notes, the melodic minor can be played a half step up from the root of the V7alt. chord.

4.Over ii-V's in a MINOR key, there are also some interesting possibilities. The progression is ii7b5 (minor 7th b 5,) to a V7b9.

Either the dorian or melodic minor scale can be played over the ii7b5, a step and a half up. (Or, minor pent., especially if the minor 6th type mentioned above, which provides the basic chord tones of the min.7th b5 chord.) Again, blues scale and passing tones work here also.

The first of two possibilities for the V7 b9 chord, are to play the dorian with a #4, over the same root as over the previous chord. This gives you the 4th mode of the harmonic minor scale, which substitutes well for the fifth mode, (which I call the phrygian major,) which is a primary choice to play over a V7b9 chord.

The second possibility is to play a diminished scale over the same root as used for the previous chord. This converts to the "diminished 1/2 step up" way of dealing with altered chords, which provides a couple of different notes than the "super locrian/ altered scale/ 7th mode of melodic minor" scale, used in similar situations.

Summary: So, in addition to touching on pentatonics, I've shown ways of using three minor type modal scales over ii-V progressions. The dorian, the dorian#4, and the mel. minor. Personally, I often think of these as the connecting point between our three common modal systems. This works well for me, since these basic scales differ by only one note. Also, I've shown how one can shift easily to a common use for the diminished scale, which is to me almost another minor scale type. The bottom line is that this is a simple way of putting a lot of music right under your hand, in the same place.

Well, hopefully someone will have followed the twists and turns of the above, and got something out of it. You may have been curious about the way Pat Martino thinks. I understand that Buddy Emmons picked apart the song "Sunny" as played by Martino. This is an excellent example of his approach, like in one spot at the climax of his long solo where he plays a single fast minor idea over the entire progression of chords. Pat Martino has been playing this way for so long, that he has an unparalleled encyclopedia of ideas based on minor type scales. He uses such an evolved chromatic approach, that his lines sound more like totally individual creations, rather than basic scales. In turn, when he applies these ideas over other chord types, like the V7, well you get an idea of what I mean.

I've studied approaches where the teacher claims that you must play one scale for each chord, and think only in terms of that chord's root to base your improvisationary scale on. I've studied an equal number of people who swear by the other approach, which is to take a preferred type of scale and superimpose it over other chord types. There are approaches similar to the "Minor Conversion" approach which instead use the major scale(perhaps changing the parent concept to mel. min. or harm. min. when needed,)or the lydian mode. (George Russell's well known system.)

Like I mentioned above, my scale command on steel is still "embryonic" but I was hoping some of you might find some of the stuff I learned in my previous incarnation as "just a guitar player" interesting.

[This message was edited by Jeff A. Smith on 28 August 2001 at 08:08 PM.]

posted 28 August 2001 09:43 PM         

1. Since the minor pentatonic is a "subset" of the Dorian mode, it makes sense that it would work. Actually, one thing that I do is play the Dorian mode in blues progressions. In a C blues, try the C Dorian scale.

2. Lydian dominant scale.

3. The Altered scale. Like you said, this and Lydian dominant are great for an "out" sound.

4. I unfortuneately VERY rarely play anything in minor keys, but what you described sounds good.

Another option for you to consider is playing the Harmonic minor 1/2 step up on a diminished chord. i.e. on an Fdim7, play F# Harmonic minor. This works for all inversions.

[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 28 August 2001 at 09:44 PM.]

posted 28 August 2001 11:21 PM         

I think it's going to be less melodic and more mechanical if you are thinking what scale goes over a chord and then what scale goes over the next one, instead of what scale or notes will play through them to the destination.

If you go chromatic, then you are in 'pattern land' because it's the same 12 notes.

[This message was edited by chas smith on 28 August 2001 at 11:23 PM.]

posted 29 August 2001 06:48 AM         

A good progression for putting all the above ideas together, in the key of G major-E minor, would be:

/Am7/D7/GM7/CM7/F#m7b5/B7b9/Em/Em

To stay with the "Minor Conversion" idea over the CM7, I would probably stick with E minor ideas, or maybe A minor, but A minor gets a lot of use in the rest of the progression. It is possible to play E minor pentatonic and blues scale ideas over the whole thing.

Thanks for "checking my math" Jeff L., and expanding on the ideas.

Chas, I've learned a lot from your ideas on resolution. It sounds like you probably favor the "horizontal" over the "vertical" approach to improvisation. Somebody that wanted to stick to the major scale as much as possible for soloing, might get harmonic minor ideas just by raising the 5th of the relative major scale, and possibly also raise the 4th of that scale for melodic minor stuff. I think the "vertical" approach most definently takes a lot longer to sound natural at. I like both. I toy with the idea that the seperation between the two approaches is really somewhat arbitrary. I'm trying to eventually simplify my thinking so that it's all one thing.

Soundwise, using this "Minor Conversion" approach, especially with liberal pentatonic and blues scale stuff, for me produces a much funkier blues flavor than basing things on the major scale. A lot of that, I am sure, has to do with my history as a guitarist.

posted 29 August 2001 08:00 AM         

Regards, Paul

posted 29 August 2001 12:54 PM         

quote:

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Oh, and I agree about all the Modes of the major scale being the same set of notes. The real advantage with naming all
the modes of the major scale is to be able to communicate concepts that everyone understands. It communicates
better to everyone if you say that you can play a C dorian scale over a C blues, which is really the notes of the Bb scale.
Most of the other scales don't have names for the modes; this is only commonly done for the major scale since it is used
so often.

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As an aside, around 30 years ago, my first recording jobs in LA were playing B3 on porno sound tracks, there was a lot of extended dorian mode noodling.

quote:

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Chas, I've learned a lot from your ideas on resolution. It sounds like you probably favor the "horizontal" over the "vertical"
approach to improvisation.

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Verticle music, for me, would be more about structures in the moment to moment and what's in the structure as opposed to where it's going, if anywhere.

[This message was edited by chas smith on 29 August 2001 at 01:03 PM.]

posted 29 August 2001 03:02 PM         

Jeff L., I'll admit that this kind of thinking hasn't made much headway into the mainstream of blues and rock playing, but I can name a few examples:

Currently on the bluesier side of things Robben Ford is a guitarist that enjoys a lot of respect, and frequently works with the concept of superimposing things based on one key over chords with a different root. He may be about the most prominent blues-jazz guitarist of this kind. He played with Miles Davis for awhile, but all of his solo stuff is "progressive blues" I guess. I sort of identify with him in certain ways, because he definently maintains contact with the blues base, while infusing it with this new information. I have all his C.D.'s and love what he does, and also have some instructional videos that he has put out, and a lot of the stuff on it is familiar but with a different slant.
Don Mock is somebody else that comes to mind, but he's known mostly as an educator. I'd have to think some more for well-known examples of guys that play blues much this way. Some of the local guys I know who have studied jazz will dabble in this kind of thing on blues. Maybe I'm more alone than I thought. I do this on three chord stuff all the time. The trick is to do it in such a way that it doesn't get too far out for the blues, but just makes it interesting for those of us that have been listening a long time to this kind of music. Of course any "jazz" guys that happen to be playing blues would be likely to use ideas like this. My idea with regard to the Sacred Steel style is that working with minor type ideas that are already familiar, it perhaps would be easy for them to get a foot in the door of more "progressive" approaches and musical styles, if they ever cared to. It may be too much of a jump for it to catch on, I don't know.

In rock there may be more of this stuff around, although I would tentatively say it may have peaked with the guitarists that came up in the 80's. All the concentration on modes and scales in that period naturally led to some different approaches.

As far as the naming of the modes of other scales than the major, I encounter quite a variety of different ways of doing this. I've kind of developed a way that seems the most practical and easy to remember for me that is mostly complete, but there are still some I'm not sure about. Many of my ideas are based on something that somebody may have noticed in the above examples.

I often will use the melodic minor mode more as a substitute for the dorian mode, rather than associating it with the aeolian (natural minor). Once I heard a couple of guitarists imply this (maybe Steve Kahn was one of the first?) this scale really took off for me. I didn't have much use for it before. So anyway, if I were to chart the modal systems of the major and melodic minor out side by side, and analyze the points of contact between them, in terms of modes from one that can be substituted for modes from the other; I usually would place the melodic minor itself next to the dorian mode, instead of the aeolian, like in what I would guess is more the classical view. The harmonic minor system I would place alongside these with the 4th mode(dorian #4) alongside the dorian.

Just to throw this in, I've encountered a few known jazz players that are also using the system of modes based on the melodic minor with a #4. I would place this scale alongside the dorian, dorian #4, and melodic minor. Most of the time , I find more useful points of contact between the systems this way, and I personally will generally name the modes according to associations that exist within this arrangement. Of course I am far from being as conversant with these other modal systems as I am with the modes of the major scale. I'm much more likely to use only certain ones, and then I may just superimpose the parent scale in some way to get it, rather than have to learn each mode as a seperate entity.

Chas, thanks for elaborating on your always enlightening perspective. My use of the terms "horizontal" and "vertical" are based on the way George Russell uses them, which I think works well with your ideas. "Vertical" implies an approach that changes its orientation each time the chord changes, while "horizontal" implies that there is a basic parent scale that runs through the progression.

For me, if I think only horizontally, I often end up playing the same parent scale riffs over and over, whatever the chord. I don't mean to imply that this is true for everyone, but it was true for me, when I used only that approach. After I work with vertical ideas for awhile, they develop a continuity and are eventually envisioned as part of the big picture, rather than isolated entities that require conscious thought. Vertical ideas (at least those based on the accompanying chord's root,) tend to bring out the changes going on in the chords below more than just sticking to a parent scale. Russell uses Coltrane as his prime example for this approach. All of the incredible superimpositions that he developed.

There are many times where a less than absolute master level parent scale player, because of the nature of the chords beneath him, would be forced to do a lot of conversions like the type you mentioned above, to the point where it would become a problem, especially over exotic chords and a rapidly shifting key center.

On the other hand, there are many times where thinking one scale per chord becomes clumsy, like over fast progressions. The continuity issues you allude to are valid also.

Tal Farlow came to mind when I was reading your post. Through a ii-V, he was playing out of and focusing on the scale for the "1" chord, thinking about "where it was going" as you say.

Sorry for all the edits, but there's a lot to work with here.

[This message was edited by Jeff A. Smith on 29 August 2001 at 03:22 PM.]

posted 29 August 2001 07:25 PM         

quote:

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I often will use the melodic minor mode more as a substitute for the dorian mode

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posted 29 August 2001 09:04 PM         

quote:

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example in the key of C, over a Dm7 chord you can play D melodic minor, which basically skips the C note of the Dm7,
and instead allows the B and C# notes. The C is a lifeless note, whereas the B and C# set up the G7 chord.

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posted 30 August 2001 07:01 AM         

Pat Martino didn't invent the idea of using minor ideas over other chord types. The idea of using a minor 7th arpeggio a fifth up from a seventh chord goes back at least as far as Charlie Christian. I read something on Steve Kahn one time, and since he apparently uses the Minor Conversion approach a great deal, he referred to the melodic minor often being a substitute for the dorian, in his way of thinking. The dorian is almost a parent scale in the same way as a major scale would be in our more common way of looking at things.

My description above is of how there are many points of contact and substitution possibilities that exist when one sees the modal systems side by side, centering around the dorian, melodic minor, dorian #4, and mel. min. #4. The more useable relationships and interchangeable modes of the four systems are usually placed side by side this way. There are times where the conventional view is needed, but this framework that I've developed from things implied by Steve Kahn and a few others is to me by far the most practical for the usages found in jazz.

So, to sum up, since I see these modes as interchangeable to a large extent, (like ii dorian= 5 mixolydian= ii melodic minor= V mixolydian #4,) I somewhat loosely speak of the melodic minor as being a substitute for dorian. What I really mean is this connection is the point of interface between the two modal systems, and all the substitution possibilities that are possible.

Sorry for the confusion, and thanks for the interest.

[This message was edited by Jeff A. Smith on 30 August 2001 at 07:06 AM.]

posted 30 August 2001 07:11 AM         

quote:
___________________________________________

As an aside, around 30 years ago, my first recording jobs in LA were playing B3 on porno sound tracks, there was a lot of extended dorian mode noodling.
____________________________________________

posted 30 August 2001 09:30 AM         

Something that seems relevant as to why the Minor Conversion concept may have developed as an alternative to using the major scale as the main parent scale;

Jazz players often don't like to use the natural 4th over a IM7th chord, because it demands resolution. I believe this is because of the tritone relationship between the nat. 7th and the 4th. (For anybody following along, that's the very dissonant interval of a flatted 5th, 6 semi-tones.) So these converted pentatonic and blues scale ideas avoid the problem of the 4th altogether. The dorian a step and a half down from the root of the I or IV major seventh chord gives a raised 4th. (same as lydian mode played on chord's root.)

They would often prefer to use the lydian mode (major scale with a #4) instead of the major scale, not only over the IV chord, but over the I. This idea is part of why George Russell felt the lydian mode was a more "natural" scale to build music around than the major. He also referred to the overtone series to support his idea. His way of connecting modal systems is similar to the one I've described, but it's based around the lydian mode. The lydian #5 mode of the melodic minor system is placed next to the lydian, connecting what we term as the major scale and melodic minor modal systems. Like many jazz musicians, he didn't have much if any use for the harmonic minor system, so it isn't even included.

Just as an aside, for anyone who wonders if all this is really necessary, I think a lot of "old school" guitarists would be likely to play out of basically three scales. We would call these the major, dorian, and mixolydian. When they encountered chords with altered notes and things, they would just change individual notes within these scales. Add the diminished scale, and with some selective note choice, that handles about everything. The dorian is the "minor seventh" scale, and is formed by flatting the 3rd and 7th of the major scale. The mixolydian is the major scale with a flatted 7th. Guys like Herb Ellis and Joe Pass made one heck of a lot of music this way.

[This message was edited by Jeff A. Smith on 30 August 2001 at 09:34 AM.]