Country drummers, on the other hand, are normally quite tasteful and reserved. (Note: this does NOT apply to drummers in the newer "NCS" bands, they're basically rock clones since they're playing what is basically rock music.) You can play good, solid, tight country music without being loud.

quote:

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In my curent working group no one thinks twice if I wallk over and tweak their amp a bit.

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You don't work with professionals?

To me this is Micro Management in the worst way, If you hire professionals, let them do their job, If you don't like the way they are doing the job, get somebody else.

I have put considerable time and effort, not to speak of money in the amp rig that I have assembled.
This would be for me the ultimate professional insult. NOBODY understands my rig like I do, how it is connected internally in the rack with two processors along with a stereo steel preamp. The last thing I need is some self-appointed expert to mess with what I took so much pride in selecting and assembling. I have nine knobs on my rig where the volume can be adjusted and each affect the sound a little differently, which one would you tweak?

I wouldn't think twice either, I would walk, right in the middle of the song.

I would have loved to have seen somebody tweak Curly Chalker's amp. Talk about Fireworks.

[This message was edited by John Floyd on 16 July 2004 at 01:49 AM.]

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James R.Hall
MSA S10 & MSA D12

Because they are a Percussion Instrument.

They are not blown, strummed, bowed, or plucked.

They are beaten.

They are Drums.

That was easy..

(Think about it...)

quote:

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You don't work with professionals?

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2 of them are totally pros they eat off this gig... And feed families too.
What better definition.

The other is retired and turns down his money because he doesn't need it. But he was semi pro for 40 years, besides running a very succesful business.
Radio live shows, major Belgian acts, big bands and concerts with symphonies.
He is a SACEM composer and that is about as pro as it gets in europe.

But the bottom line is I am an audio sound pro with decades more sound balancing than all of them.

They are acoustic jazz guitarists who are dealing with amps which they wish they didn't have to use.

They trust me to get the best stage balance for us ALL, we don't use a PA.
Just as I did in the studio for us. And they like the studio sound of their guitars, and want that out of their amps. Which is problematic.

It isn't just a volume balance, but an general Eq balance of three similar guitars running in the same frequency range and similar chord voicings. But a need for a subtle variation between each guitar.

So in their profesional judgment they allow me to taylor our sound as a whole,
amp by amp since that is how we get the sound.

And I do my best to get as close to their ACOUSTIC guitars sound from their differing amps.
I am just much better with electronics than they are.

But if one of them comes back to me and says my bass is booming in the room I listen to them without question. I can't frog march my upright bass into the room to listen at will.

But it is a pre-agreed thing. Not just that I walk up and turn something just to do it. There is ALWAYS a good reason.

Mixing a band for a sound man is a form of micro manegment, if we do it wrong... you all climb all over us.
But rooms change as the crowd in them changes, drummers change thier dynamics, the air inf the room changes as people sweat in it. If you don't micro manage a sound mix to some extent then you don't maintain the SAME sound all night.
Sorry it's the nature of the beast.

But I wouldn't just walk up to John Floyd's Stereo Steel and turn knobs if he didn't believe I was only trying to make HIM sound better with the WHOLE band, and not just mess with his personal sound because I didn't like it. I most likely would very much like his sound.
If he didn't trust me I wouldn't touch it...

But... and here's the rub.
You can have a PERFECT sound for a solo with minimal backing and sound like mud through most of the night...
because minimal backing is not the normal state.

You can also have a cheapo mic on a perfect sounding amp system and it just don't work out front.
A direct from pre amp line out often doesn't match the PA eq with the players amp eq. which is set for his stage speakers, and though the sound is perfect on stage, again out front it isn't working.

So that leaves three choices...
talk to the player and ask for a bit of change to help HIS sound in the environment it is placed in,
ask him if I may make an adjustment rather than try to translate into words something difficult to explain,
or let it ride...and the players sound for the show is off.
4 feet from his amp it may be pefection personified,
but out front Sorry Charlie, no tuna.

Most PA's don't have the best choice of mics on amps.
You do what you must.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 17 July 2004 at 06:41 PM.]

It's just these days the crowds are bigger and the rooms noisier, even when they are just listening.

I wouldn't last very long if I went up tweaked somebody's amp Like , Herby Wallace. I mention Herby because he is a regular on our Show every three months. Herby is dynamic in his playing and gets a great tone, he requires lots of headroom. First thing Herby and no other player wants is to hear themselves in the monitors, most don't want any effects. Professional players in this country want to be in control of how they sound, it is a big part of their total package and in some cases their trademark.

My point is, being in control of the quality of their sound is part of the job of a pro player. Where they do it good or bad is their responsibility and is perceived to be a mark of their ability. I don't want to assume the responsibility of any players Sound especially a Hall of fame member and I'm sure they feel the same. I would never set myself up to be Judge and executioner of a players sound, especially one of world renown.

I recently had a player that normally had a great tone and this particular day his tone was piercing. I went up and looked his amp over, but didn't say anything to him during his performance, because he would have become nervous and probably wouldn't have played as well as he usually does. After his show was over, he came by and I told him that he had a new amp and it wasn't up to his usual, that I hadn't said anything to him to interrupt his performance. He was trying out a new amp before he bought it, It had one of the lightweight Neo speakers in it and they are extremely bright. He wanted lighter weight, but wasn't going to sacrifice tone for it. So he made up his mind not to buy the amp. He was happy that I handled it the way I did and That he had found out about the amp before buying it. I was happy that I still had a friend. The next show it won't be a problem.

I'm not running a studio at Saluda, its a live show. I leave it up to the players on the stage to get their own stage balance, I respect their professionalism and ability first. If they need a boost, I give it to them, however this doesn't take care of the player who is too loud. If I can get their attention discreetly I give a hand signal, but I would never walk up to the stage and tweak their amp. Just isn't the polite thing to do in the Southern US. Usually the staff band will give each other cues about volume and they are highly professional musicians who take a lot of pride in their product. If I relieve someone in the staff band I start out low and usually I know if I'm too low and will correct for it on my own, if not then they tell me that I need to be louder. That way we have no hard feelings. My way works for me and no doubt yours probably works for you.

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The Southern Steel Guitar Convention at Saluda, SC Since 1987

For informstion on the Shriners Childrens Hospitals, go to:
http://www.shrinershq.org/hospitals/geninfo.html

[This message was edited by John Floyd on 18 July 2004 at 04:41 AM.]

GOOD EXAMPLES ? Jim Loesberg !
My first choice is KENNY MALONE (or Lenny de Falk from Amsterdam HA )

Jelle

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James R.Hall
MSA S10 & MSA D12

It isn't like having a all star show with big time soloists with decades of time tuning in their sound. Nor with a sound mixer out front with a great system and $1,000 mics on each guitar.
I wish...

But if you heard that artist during sound check with a "piercing sound"... well if it was me as that aritist, I WOULD want to be told.
Especially if it didn't seem like my normal sound.
I would be MORE unhappy with you for NOT TELLING ME.... before the show.

It is the manner and discretion you use in giving them the feedback which would be key to being a pro helping another pro, vs someone throwing someone off stride.

No you don't do it during the set.
I can't imagine going up and tweaking Herbie Wallce's amp mid set.

But If Herbie was playing with a touring act and I was mixing on a system I had not specified technically,
and I thought I was having a problem making Herbie sound his best with HIS SOUND out front during sound check.

I would think it poor form not to mention I had a problem fitting him in the mix to his best advantage, but that if he added/dipped a triffle at say around 400hz on his stage system, I could make him sound better. over all.

I of course would have heard his stage sound, so would know what he wants to hear.

It is then his call to make the change or not.
But I am at least doing him the courtesy of letting him know the sound system mix is not what HE would want out front. And a suggestion to make it better out front : take it or leave it, but this should help.

If you have great mics and a very well balanced an eq'd pa system for the show, lucky you,
it makes this issue much less, but too much of the time this is not the case.

As far as culture differences, I ain't french, or even european, I just live here.
But I have done 30+ years of mixing in the states, in all kinds of venues, for all kinds of styles.
And yes pre-arranged hand signals are a must.

Back on DRUMMERS.... There are 3 types

Those that want the exact sound of their drums reproduced perfectly...
but of course never can be out there to listen,
so take thier girlfriends word that their sound sucks. It don't sound like Madona's drummer it must be wrong.

And those that want cannon shots from dead heads, and Zilljian K sound from 15 year old cracked Paistes,
and expect the toms to have the sound of $75,000 in studio devices from a $3,000 used hodge-podge system.
Just like their drum idols get on record...

They also listen to the non drummer girl friend,
and if it isn't bouncing off the back walls and wobbling drinks off the bar, imagine that they can't be heard.

Then there is that rare to far in between drummer who sight reads Coltrain on 3 instruments, can actually tune thier drums, maintain the kit BEFORE something breaks, and ask you to do your best with their sound.

The latter is so rare....
That's why I don't play with a drummer right now.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 18 July 2004 at 02:09 PM.]

There are a few drummers who are so pleasing to work with you book them if you can...
but you can't because they have too much work.

Basses resonate with the room in odd ways,
and the sound is non directional in it's lower frequencies.
Plus the bass notes at the low end don't develope full power to the ear until they are 8-16 or even 32 feet from the amp.

So it is difficult for the bassist to actually hear the bass at it's true volume in the room from the typical playuing position.

Also the frequency range is to a great extent below typical ear recognition clarity levels, it is more sensed than heard,
so those two elements tend to push the bass higher in the mix.

As to drummers with ear plugs.
The cymbals and drums tend to naturally create sound levels that can cause ear damage. Couple that with being back with all the amps close by it isn't any wonder a few smarter drummers want to save their ears.

I usually tend to have an earplug on the side the drummer is, if I am regularly working with one.
The cymbals can be killer. always ringing in the exact same frequency band, as opposed to guitars which have a much wider band.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 19 July 2004 at 01:38 AM.]

I have been very fortunate to pick with some GREAT drummers and be able to handle the sound for some great and not so great bands. I usually have a pow-wow with the band during sound check to see what they want to hear in their monitors. Then I run the monitors a little low in volume, so the players have to strain a little to hear them, causing the overall stage level to run lower (most of the time).

There are exceptions to every rule, but I find that most musicians, INCLUDING THE DRUMMER, want the out front sound to be good and will cooperate. I actually think the drummer should be the best musician in the band, then the bass player. For with great rhythm, it makes my steeling easy.

Our drummer gets a couple of solos every night we play. The audience loves it.

So in light of being punished on this forum, let's hear it for the "drummers" in the room.

Bill Ferguson

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Stop worrying about what makes a steel work and concentrate on how YOU make it sound"

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Derby D-10 3+4 Les Paul Custom.

quote:

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Rock music must be loud for people to like it. Loud is good, louder is better. That's rock. That's their mantra. "Feel the energy"! Rock drummers, almost without exception, think all fast songs have to be very loud, and most all slow songs have to be almost as loud.

Country drummers, on the other hand, are normally quite tasteful and reserved.

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Somehow, I suspect the "rock music" Bobby is talking about and playing is more along the lines of easy-listening, or soft-rock music. I doubt they do many songs in the style of Aerosmith, Twisted-Sister, Kiss, or Metallica!

But as a studio engineer I found myself tuning drums regularly, for less than fully trained drummers, in the studio, all the time for decades.
They would set up, and I say tune up your drums a bit before we do a take,
then cringe during the 1st test recording. Play it back for them...
and more often than not be right into the whole drum kit,
hands on, at the drummers request for about 1/2 an hour. Tell we got the kit under control.
Also I would often be the test drummer when he went into the control room to have a listen.

Eventually with the house kits sitting around, some fine fully trained drummers around as teachers I just ended up playing more and more.
Good excersise and an occasional gig.

If I don't notice the drummer during a gig, but am digging the groove and the accents,
and then he makes music with his solo... and his drums ring true...
well that's my kinda drummer.

My 4 favorites that I have played with are
the late great Alan Dawson, creater of the Berklee percusion department.
His students Bob Guilatti and Alan Goodrich
and Tommy Cambell from John McGlaughlin's and Sonny Rawlin's bands.

These guys were never too loud, unless they wanted to and for good reason.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 24 July 2004 at 02:45 PM.]

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Actually I have observed bad drummers play with more stick movement to compensate for a lack of good timing.
If the stick moves a longer distance ( louder), then it is easier to see / feel the timing differences.

The great drummers, play with wrists and even finger movement rather than whole arm and soime wrist.

quote:

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Somehow, I suspect the "rock music" Bobby is talking about and playing is more along the lines of easy-listening, or soft-rock music. I doubt they do many songs in the style of Aerosmith, Twisted-Sister, Kiss, or Metallica!

(If they do, I'd sure like to hear 'em!)

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How do you tell the drummer is level on stage?............when he drools from both sides of his mouth.