I still can't understand why sound guys and bands use 4 or 5 mics on a full set on a small gig in a small club ..I never understood this and still don't. By doing this I have always contended that " The reference " for volume is now set..and much higher than it needs to be..

They mic the amps and tell us to keep the stage volume down which I agree with..but is this not a reverse by mic'ing the entire drum set ?

Do we really need cymbols and a snare drum in the sound system ?

Ok, I'm on the plank..

I think not..

This past weekend the sound guy at our gig used 16 mics..( small room ) he mic'ed everything but the front door I think..during the gig he commented to me that it was really loud out front.

Ya think !!

side note:
I play pretty much the same level on Steel all the time..the exact same preamp and post gain settings all the time and normally 1/2 volume pedal..only full pedal at the end of a sustaining chord phrase. If he tells me I'm too loud out front thru the system I usually just say..

"yes I know" .."Can't help ya..you got the fader..not me "...

t

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 12 July 2004 at 03:30 AM.]

My favourite? Gerry Conway - British player who did a lot of folk-rock gigs (Fairport Convention, Kate & Anna McGarrigle etc); he played with us for a Sonny Curtis tour in the '90s, and it's my happiest drummer-related experience ever!

One of the saddest? Hearing the Everlys two nights in a row in England - I went to listen to Buddy Emmons, but only heard Larry Londin's kit. Not Larry's fault, I don't think - just sheer lunacy on the part of the sound-crew.

As Tony says, the standard has been set; drum mics in a small club? That's nuts!!!

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Derby D-10 3+4 Les Paul Custom.

Seems like some guys can't stay tight and play quietly while doing it... only in god of thunder guise can they really keep it in line. That is always a bad sign...

I hear you!

Not only do most drummers play too loud, they are mixed way too loud. Most sound engineers are rock guys and are proud of their kick and snare drum mix.

The drummer in my band The Saltines, Pat Bills, uses mostly brushes and does not like his kit mic'ed. Plus he has a minimal kit, no rack tom.

Pat is the best drummer I've worked with because he listens. Rock drummers in classic country bands are a misfit. If you're playing NCS, like Montgomery Gentry, then get a rock guy. Nobody listens anymore.

Pat has gone through the chops phase of his career and now plays what is needed, like a beat.

lucky in MI,
Drew

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Drew's Website

It started with Elvis and the rebellion against ANY thing decent, proper, moral or sensible.

Then came, the running everything wide open. Then the manufacturers of amplifiers seeing the mega bucks from the rebelious punks, started building ever more power monsters.

Since drums are not designded for PU's like a plectrum instrument or an electric keyboard, there is only one other way for the drummer boy to compete in the madness of decibel-hell, and that is to beat the livin' "hell" out of them.

And BEAT they did and continue to do so. Course the edge of the snare which was never really designed to be part of the equation became a likely target for the rebelious "go-alongs" and "frammers".

IMO, George D Hay had the better part of valor when he said "NO" to drums on the stage of the GOO. I only wish they had stuck to his wisdom.

Oh well...

"Basses and drums should be felt and not heard"

I like that

I guess I'm lucky though, I rarely have to suffer with bad(i.e. loud) drummers anymore for some reason. Lord knows you'd think there'd better be a few sensitive players in an area the size So. Cal! Luckily for me, most of the guys I play with have figured out how to deal with "kick-boom" heavy soundmen by now.

The main culpret with most drummers is just plain lack of technique...
The second is good taste.

As a bassplayer one of my best compliments for a drummer is

I didn't even think about you all night except in your solo, you were just with me and it felt good.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 13 July 2004 at 05:43 AM.]

Both of these guys are musicians, not just drummers. They have studied, and they can read.

Of course, I've experienced "the other kind" too. I'm just thankful for the present situation!

Rick

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Rick McDuffie

Sho-Bud Pro I, Marlen Speedy West, Fender Telecaster Custom, Strat, Gibson Les Paul Deluxe

Maybe we should get back to basics and let the band handle the mix. There has to be a leader in the band to call the shots on balance.

If you need a slight boost for the band, go to zone miking with mic's suspended from the overhead. Small Venues don't need bass and drums miked.

I've been planning on doing this at Saluda for some time now, because we change players every 30 minutes. #1 because I'm Lazy and don't like to make 60+ trips to the stage to move mic's and #2 The Volume levels tend to creep upward as the day goes on, This is normal with the excitement of the show building as ther day goes on. Also Some times we have more Extra Guitar Players in the staff band than we have mic's or channels for in the system.

My plan is to suspend 3 mics in the overhead on each side of the stage and use the pan pots on the board to approximate their left and right position on the stage for a small boost of the normal stereo Sound field.

A loud Drummer or bass player can destroy your mix in a heartbeat and be so loud in the mix that you can't hear a singer.

If there's not a good stage balance before you turn the system on then A soundman can't help you, he can boost some one who isn't loud enough, but he can't bring down someone who is already too loud.

A good clue is when the bass is too loud and the fader on his channel is all the way down and the singer can't be heard. It happens!!!

I agree that the Soundman should be a musician, but not one who is performing, he has the worst seat in the house for listening.

Also the soundman should have some knowledge of electronics and how the mixer controls function. There are way too many groups out there with large systems that don't have a clue on how it should be used.

After all you wouldn't let your pet chimp ride your expensive Harley motorcycle alone, would you? For the ones that say My Chimp is trained to ride a motorcycle, I say that I have made my point.

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The Southern Steel Guitar Convention at Saluda, SC Since 1987

For informstion on the Shriners Childrens Hospitals, go to:
http://www.shrinershq.org/hospitals/geninfo.html

[This message was edited by John Floyd on 13 July 2004 at 06:44 AM.]

I commend your for your astuteness and prowess in always thinking of ways to solve built-in problems. Saluda is blessed to have you and your dedication. I laud you dear friend.

I would like to share the following with you personally.

When I was asked by Hal Rugg and Larry Sasser to produce Atlanta's first steel guitar show in '97, I told them (after much prayer and consternation) that I would ONLY do it if I could have 3 things. When they asked me what they were, I said,

1. Since it will be held the Thanksgiving weekend, that I want each player to include in their set at least one hymn.

2. That there be no smoking in the hall.

3. That the overall sound level be considerably lower than what had become norm in steel guitar shows.

Neither of them even whenced. They agreed on all three points. Sadly, I was reminded once again when you said, how the players start getting louder and louder as the show progresses.

In the second year's show on Saturday afternoon (it began Friday nite), my wife walked up to me and was trying to tell me about a problem that was happening at the registration booth and she needed me.

She was literally screaming in my ear and we were towards the back of the room. I pulled away from her and headed towards the sound booth. Whereupon the head audio mixer anticipating my words pointed to the master level controls on the PA mixing board.

To my dismay, they were completely OFF! And the sound coming off the steel guitar amp was so horridly loud I could not stand it.
I went outside and settled the problem with the person who was angry at the registration clerk.

Then I grabbed my wife, and said,

"that's it, there will NEVER be another steel guitar show produced by me." And there hasn't and there never will be. Nor will I ever sit again and try to enjoy music that is 50 times louder than Jesus designed our ears to listen to.

I address the following to my Christian bretheren. Sodom and Gamorah did not start out like it was when it was destroyed. Sin of every conceivable persuasion gradually increases until we get desensitized to it. This is one of Satan's most power tools.

Loud music is destroying part of God's temple. Your body is God's temple. And your ears are a precious gift. Please please, dear bretheren stop and think what you are allowing to happen to you.

carl

As a sound man I think my job is to get a good sound for ALL people in the room.

The sound, Not JUST control the sound equipment.

I tell groups : here are my off stage mid set or mid song hand signals.
Especially usefull for early in sets or with multiple bands.

I get your attention and point at your instrument and
wave it up or wave it down.

For too much bass or treble, especially for a bass player I point to the instrument ,
then finger down or up for the highs or lows
with the other hand, I wave up or down.

If it continues to be a problem I go on stage between songs, and nicely
and discretely explain they don't sound good out front : sometimes with a
" and people are leaving", comment.

As I see it the total sound on stage, off stage and stage monitors is my job.
However the sound is generated, not just from my sliders.

If they aren't coopertive I finish the gig and walk,
telling they why I won't work with them again.

Very simple.

95% of players are more worried about lossing audience than their volume level.
The other 5% can take a hike.

The later in the night increase in levels is for two reasons.

1) Excitment and the sense of increasing it.

2) on stage ear fatigue, after a certain amount of sound at a elevated level,
the ear becomes gradually desensitized and players turn up thinking they need to compensate.

But with most players a word to the wise is sufficiant.
But if they get no feedback they just go on as they think is normal.

In my curent working group no one thinks twice if
I wallk over and tweak their amp a bit.
Because usualy I tweak it less than they do, but to more positive effect.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 13 July 2004 at 11:10 AM.]

Ear fatigue is a big deal, I wish more musicians understood that.

How many sound men are out of work drummers? I know several.

Also, I think the people (read non-musician) that hire the sound man and band judge the sound by what it feels like. And face it, most people (again, non-musicians) hear the "beat" first. If the kick drum is hitting you in the chest and the snare makes your ears tickle then there's the "beat." So, the sound man's performance is judged on the volume of the drums.