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 Auto-tune / pitch correct (Page 1)
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| Author | Topic: Auto-tune / pitch correct |
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Greg Vincent Member From: Los Angeles, CA USA |
posted 21 September 2004 08:20 AM
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Hi folks, What are you hearing when you identify a vocal that has been processed with pitch correction? What is the tell-tale "give-away"? I'm not able to identify pitch correction on recordings. Then again I don't listen to much top-40 country! |
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Bob Hoffnar Member From: Brooklyn, NY |
posted 21 September 2004 08:39 AM
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The most extreme example of auto tune in on Believe by Cher. Its used as an effect. Just about everything you hear on top 40 country has been auto tuned. Even the instruments. Thats one of the main things give it that one dementional, lifeless sound. It gives the vocals a strange synth like sheen. You can hear it plain as day on Jo-dee Massenas stuff from a few years ago. The ramp in between slid pitches is absolutely straight and then flattens out suddenly on the designated note. Its sorta a nightmare once you can notice the auto tune sound. It really ruins any attempt I make at enjoying the music coming out of Nashville these days. I hope that the Nashville producers catch up with the L.A. and NYC producers soon and stop abusing the auto tune tool. ------------------ |
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Chris Forbes Member From: Beltsville, MD, USA |
posted 21 September 2004 08:59 AM
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Maybe they'll stop using it so much when they start recording people who actually know how to sing. |
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Glenn Austin Member From: Montreal, Canada |
posted 21 September 2004 09:39 AM
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You can really hear Autotune on Tim Mcgraw. I think it is a neato effect, but way overused. It's something I would want to use as a last resort. |
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David Mason Member From: Cambridge, MD, USA |
posted 21 September 2004 09:48 AM
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"One-dementional" - I like that. I just heard a live clip of Sheryl Crow (now she's country, ever since she teamed up with good ol' boy Kid Rock). Holy Moly, did she ever need some pitch correction! Maybe they could put it on a footpedal so the soundman can fix 'em up live. |
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Jim Phelps Member From: just out of Mexico City |
posted 21 September 2004 10:27 AM
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. [This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 17 November 2004 at 08:30 PM.] |
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Chris Forbes Member From: Beltsville, MD, USA |
posted 21 September 2004 11:07 AM
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Jim, I've already dug out my old jazz stuff. Art Pepper anyone? How about some Sonny Rollins? Autotuner!?!? They didn't need no stinkin' autotuner!!!!!!!! |
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Ben Slaughter Member From: Madera, California |
posted 21 September 2004 01:22 PM
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What blew me away was when it George Strait used it on the song "Stars on the Water." |
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Jim Cohen Member From: Philadelphia, PA |
posted 21 September 2004 01:43 PM
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Could someone please post a sound clip of an obvious autotune effect so I can hear what it sounds like? I don't listen to commercial radio much, so I dunno... Thanks for the education, |
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Bob Hoffnar Member From: Brooklyn, NY |
posted 21 September 2004 01:53 PM
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Jim, Its used on EVERYTHING coming out of Nashville ALL the time to some extent ! Even the instruments. Listen carefully to the vocal phrasing of anything by Tim McGraw or any one of the weaker singers. First listen to Ray Charles or the Beatles or whatever to clear your ears. Once you start hearing it you will be amazed at how messed up the producers in Nashville are. Its like when you start to notice the flagrant abuse of compression. ------------------ |
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Jim Phelps Member From: just out of Mexico City |
posted 21 September 2004 02:17 PM
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. [This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 17 November 2004 at 08:30 PM.] |
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Steinar Gregertsen Member From: Arendal, Norway |
posted 21 September 2004 02:37 PM
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Please allow me to clear up a few things about this autotune beast, since there seems to be a bit confusion as to what it actually does. There are two ways to use it (at least),- First, there's the audible effect, or the 'Cher' effect if you like. This one is obvious to anyone, and is an effect (a rather tasteless one in my ears) just like a wah on a guitar.. Then, there's the 'hidden' way to use it. This means correcting the pitch of a singer or musician to achieve a 'clinically correct' result. Too many producer seem to just turn it on at the start of the session and leave it there, on 'automatic' mode (okay, I'm exaggerating, but still..), while others use it with great care and regard it as one of those tools you pull out of your drawer when 'nothing else works'. Which is probably how it was designed to be used in the first place, but as we all know,- tools that are made to make our work easier easily gets abused...... Steinar ------------------ |
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Donny Hinson Member From: Balto., Md. U.S.A. |
posted 21 September 2004 08:29 PM
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Well, not everything that comes out of Nashville succumbs to the "autotune jockeys".  You see, I just listened to "Save A Horse...yadda, yadda, yadda" by Big&Rich. No evidence of it on that one. (LOL!) Their new "CDR" song (that's my own acronym for "cowboy-disco-rap") sure could 'a used it, though. I believe Big&Rich are best described as a SNL parody of Brooks and Dunn.Yep, that's it. |
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Per Berner Member From: Skövde, Sweden |
posted 21 September 2004 11:07 PM
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Aren't we missing the obvious question here: Has anyone tried using auto-tune on steel? Could make for some hilarious effects - but I actually wonder what a VERY subtle setting would do for steel intonation. Would it work at all? |
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Toby Rider Member From: Fort Worth, Texas, USA |
posted 22 September 2004 12:36 AM
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Digital vocal harmonizers get abused quite a bit as well.. |
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Bob Hoffnar Member From: Brooklyn, NY |
posted 22 September 2004 05:23 AM
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Per, The McSinger Machine does not work on chords as of yet. ------------------ |
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Don Walters Member From: Regina, SK, Canada |
posted 22 September 2004 07:41 AM
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quote: Being human, I'm sure he's hit the wrong note a time or two. But I bet he also at least knows when he's off! |
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Greg Vincent Member From: Los Angeles, CA USA |
posted 22 September 2004 08:10 AM
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Just listened to a clip of Cher's Believe on All Music Guide. WOW that's crazy! But she's using it as an effect, not as a "fix". I still don't know how to identify AutoTune when it's used as a fix. Maybe I should remain blissfully ignorant? -GV |
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Steinar Gregertsen Member From: Arendal, Norway |
posted 22 September 2004 08:18 AM
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quote: If it's been used discretely on a few sour notes, by a skilled engineer, you will never know. Steinar ------------------ |
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Chris Haston Member From: Nashville, Tennessee, USA |
posted 22 September 2004 08:38 AM
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Really though, just listen to Tim McGraws later material. There's a certain metallic quality to it. When there are backup vocals, the lack of natural beating in pitch makes it sound almost robotic. I have Autotune. It's a decent quick fix on demos for me |
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Brad Sarno Member From: St. Louis, MO USA |
posted 22 September 2004 08:58 AM
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It's a strange evolution that the "tuners" have come through. On some or most of these average to crappy singers coming out of Nashville lately, they just plain need help with their pitch. Sad but true. Tuners used in auto mode are very detectable and offensive sounding. You can hear this strange layer of what sounds like a synth or chorus in there and it's a layer of sound that is kind of detached from the real singer's voice. I can't even listen to music with that sound. I just change the station. Sad thing is that it's on MOST of the new country stuff. I've worked with some engineers who will manually use a "tuner" and honestly, when used manually and sparingly for just fixing little bad spots, they're pretty impressive and unnoticeable. What's sad to me is that the sound of the tuner has become the new sound for even very good singers like George Strait or Alan Jackson. The new sound is sort of a hybrid. On the guys who don't need pitch correction, they'll let the raw uncorrected vocal thru in the mix, but they'll also mix along side that the "tuner" sound with some slight pitch correction. It creates this whole new layer giving the singer's voice a very modern, robotic timbre. I can tolerate this just a bit more than a truly "auto-tuned" voice track because the original imperfect track is still there. It's become the new sound and our ears are getting used to it. To me it kind of kills the emotional part of the human voice. I consider it a musical tragedy in general. People used to just sing well and that was good enough. I say if they can really sing, leave the tuners to all the hacks. It should separate the pro's from the "faces". Brad Sarno |
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Gene Jones Member From: Oklahoma City, OK USA |
posted 22 September 2004 09:11 AM
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..all of this new technology is about to convince me that I should start singing! I just need to select the "right" material for success! Stand by for my first hit! Seriously, I am remembering those that I have known who have "made it" without a pitch corrector and without a great voice, so there is certainly more envolved in being successful than just being able to hit a note on pitch! www.genejones.com [This message was edited by Gene Jones on 23 September 2004 at 06:20 AM.] |
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Steinar Gregertsen Member From: Arendal, Norway |
posted 22 September 2004 09:26 AM
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I'm still waiting for the "Instant Talent" plugin.....  Steinar ------------------ |
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Dave Boothroyd Member From: The Malvern Hills |
posted 22 September 2004 10:54 AM
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Autotune, like reverb, phaser, chorus should come with one more control. It should be labelled "Taste" The lowest setting should be marked "Unspeakably Tasteless" The highest should be "Pure Class" ------------------ |
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Jim Peters Member From: St. Louis, Missouri, USA |
posted 22 September 2004 02:38 PM
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I totally agree with Brad. My wife and I have been performing together for 12 years now, she has NEVER missed pitch as long as I've known her.It kills me to hear "singers" who can sing no better than me! JimP |
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Donny Hinson Member From: Balto., Md. U.S.A. |
posted 22 September 2004 06:25 PM
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Either you can sing well...or you can't. Having to use "pitch correction" doesn't mean you're not a popular singer, it just means you're not a very good singer. Popularity and ability are no longer synonymous. |
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Steinar Gregertsen Member From: Arendal, Norway |
posted 22 September 2004 06:41 PM
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quote: They've never been,- at least not in the world of popular culture for the last 40 years. There has always been "the real deals" and the "posers and wannabees", it's just that the greed of the entertainment industry has never been as obvious as it is now..... Fortunately, the Internet has opened up a whole lot of new doors for real artists to spread their music, and that's where you find the future of talented and honest music. The major labels are dinasours ready to die IMO, but that's a totally different subject....... Steinar ------------------ |
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Joey Ace Sysop From: Southern Ontario, Canada |
posted 22 September 2004 07:01 PM
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quote:
It reminds me of computer icons "snap to grid" feature. Used as effect it's almost a Yodel. |
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ajm Member From: Los Angeles |
posted 22 September 2004 07:17 PM
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"Popularity and ability are no longer synonymous." Depending on how broad of a spectrum you want to look at and include, I'm not sure they ever were. ------------------ |
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John McGann Member From: Boston, Massachusetts, USA |
posted 23 September 2004 04:43 AM
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John Lennon said music started going downhill when everyone started worrying about "excellence". That can be interpreted many ways, but to me, it's when you nail something (with spirit and drive) the first take, but someone decides it can be "more perfect", and you wind up with a take with much less personality, many takes down the road... Or a "comped" version where they snip together a track with phrase one lifted from take 5, phrase 2 lifted from take 7, etc. That approach can be valid, too, but sometimes it's nice to have a Real Performance. I know I am preaching to the choir here, but since when did music have to be "perfect" as in perfectly in tune? What the hell is music without sweat and garlic? Can you imagine Ernest Tubb with AutoTune? or The Beatles? Sonny Boy Williamson?!?! Howsabout there is no such thing as "perfectly in tune" whether JI or ET? Especially if the music (heaven forbid) changes keys?!?! (See the 12,000 pages here on the Forum regarding JI vs. ET) (sputtering sounds here) Does everything HAVE to be sanitized clean and shiny for the mythical Buffy, the Well Groomed Consumer-Ameoba? I'm saving my money for more Bear Family boxed sets! Middle Aged Man Grumble Over and Out. Blood pressure too high. ------------------ Joaquin Murphey solos book info and some free stuff : http://www.johnmcgann.com/joaquin.html [This message was edited by John McGann on 23 September 2004 at 09:30 AM.] [This message was edited by John McGann on 23 September 2004 at 09:33 AM.] |
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Bill Terry Member From: Bastrop, TX, USA |
posted 23 September 2004 08:11 AM
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Wasn't there a George Strait song a while back that had a weird auto-tune artifact? "Stars on the Water" maybe? I remember being very surprised it was released that way at the time. |
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John Macy Member From: Denver, CO USA |
posted 24 September 2004 08:40 AM
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Autotune is just a tool. Anyone can operate a nail gun, but someone will manage to build a fine piece of furniture with it, and another will nail their foot to the floor. Not the tools fault... |
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Bobby Lee Sysop From: Cloverdale, North California, USA |
posted 24 September 2004 10:50 AM
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One of the most attractive things about the steel guitar is the fact that pitch is totally under the control of the player. Subtle nuances of pitch are what make the steel such an expressive instrument. The same is true of the human voice. Take it away, and you have something less than music, in my opinion. ------------------ |
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Steinar Gregertsen Member From: Arendal, Norway |
posted 24 September 2004 10:59 AM
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quote: Oh well. In my case I believe the jury is still out on that matter...... Steinar ------------------ |
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Orville Johnson Member From: Seattle, Washington, USA |
posted 24 September 2004 11:39 AM
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i agree that autotune is nothing but a tool. it can certainly be abused but i know that in the course of producing my own recordings and projects for others, i sure like being able to use a take that has great energy, vibe, attitude, etc. and fix a note or two that would bug me later when listening. in the past we would probably try to punch into the track and fix the note by resinging it so by tuning the the note that is there you could argue that the integrity of the track is preserved. ( i don't want to argue that myself!) i also like the ease now with digital editing of doing comped vocal tracks. my method of working with singers these days is to have them sing the song all the way thru 3 or 4 times, take the best track, and then go thru and see if we need any line or word fixes to pull them from one of the other tracks. the best thing about this is that the singer does complete takes each time thereby being able to get into each performance. much better, i think, than when we used to have to punch into the track to fix things. |
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Mike Headrick Member From: Jasper, TN, USA |
posted 24 September 2004 08:01 PM
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Here's an "aside" to the Nashville sterility issue. I used Hank Singer in my studio for about 15 years and knew him to be one of the absolute best fiddle players alive. His intonation and taste were impeccable. I had heard that he played on Alan Jackson's "Chattahoochie" so one day I asked him about it. He said that he did indeed play on it and so did two other top Nashville session players. The Fiddle solo actually had all three fiddlers on it, one phrase or note at a time! Any one of them could have aced it on a first take, especially Hank. How ridiculous can you get? At least with autotune, it's the same singer getting sterilized. |
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Bill Llewellyn Member From: San Jose, CA |
posted 25 September 2004 09:20 AM
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Orville, that's how I do my own steel tracks.  I wonder how this autotune mechanism deals with vibrato in a person's voice. Does it fight it and try to pull the pitch in to the closest note? In the studio it could be manipulated after the take to leave vibrato alone where it should, but how about live? (Note: Country singing seems to have very little vibrato, making it less of an issue in Nashville.) ------------------ |
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Bobby Lee Sysop From: Cloverdale, North California, USA |
posted 25 September 2004 09:32 AM
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Does Christine Aguilera use it? She seems to have incredible pitch control - almost unbelievable for someone with all the other pop star qualities. |
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Bill Terry Member From: Bastrop, TX, USA |
posted 25 September 2004 10:30 AM
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Bill, The Antares has a configurable 'vibrato' effect, but I've never used it.. you set a delay time and depth I think, sorta like the modulation control on synths. So lets' see.. first the tool removes any pitch variance, and then the tool adds pitch variance... |
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Orville Johnson Member From: Seattle, Washington, USA |
posted 25 September 2004 12:28 PM
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i've mostly used the antares and if you operate it manually rather than on auto you can surgically move notes without affecting the vibrato. if a note is drastically out of tune i would rather use another approach (punch in, resing, pull from another track) because even with manual operation you can hear the effect if it's a really bad note. as i said, i prefer to use it sparingly and i've never used it as an "effect". could be cool tho. maybe i'll try that sometime. |
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