Hearts and Flowers was a neat band, Larry Murray, Bernie Leadon, Rick Cunha, and ...there goes the memory again... on bass. Was it David Dawson?

The stuff that "Tex" recorded for MetroMedia I hope and pray never sees the light of day. I was so out of tune I'm still embarrassed 37 years later. We only cut 4 songs, anyway. Tommy Allsup produced.

Murphey and Boomer did have a deal with Buck Owens, but the money was no good. Buck wanted them on exclusive contract for something like 10K a year, poor money even then. They were writing for Screen Gems also, and had a good Monkees cut "What Am I Doin' Hangin' 'Round?"

More later as the white cells in the brain return to their normal gray color.

------------------
Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 14 August 2006 at 08:49 AM.]

quote:

---

Can we all agree Linda Ronstadt was the mother of country rock?

---

Linda, being post-Beatles, falls more into the category of musicians being discussed in this thread... namely, folkie-rockers interpreting country styles into their music.

So I'd say Linda was the first, followed closely by Tracy Nelson in Mother Earth.

------------------
Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

I wasn't trying to argue that Blonde on Blonde was a country rock record - just that I hear a bit of foreshadowing of that there. John Wesley Harding is the earliest country rock record I've ever heard, according to my own internal definition - YMMV.

The other thing is, back at the time, I remember asking Jay Dee what was Gram's story. He said that it was Gram's mission for the rock n' roll guys (musicians) and the country guys, to hang out together.
Gram was consciously trying to meld the two forms, so that they were co-equal. So in that respect, because he was trying to create country-rock, I'll change my vote from Richie Furay to Gram Parsons.

[This message was edited by Rich Weiss on 15 August 2006 at 09:27 PM.]

Buck called it "The Bakersfield Sound" and it was surely something different.

A number of years ago a guy named Frank Berto wrote a book about the origin and history of mountain biking, and it is generally acknowledged that the sport originated a little south of me, in Marin County. A number of riders took old Schwinn balloon-tired bikes like we rode as kids, and delivered our papers from on our newspaper route, and cobbled 10 speed derailleurs and hand brakes to the machine, so that they could ride up the steep trails in a low gear on Mount Tamalpais, instead of having to walk the things up the mountain to be able to enjoy the thrill ride down. Those things have evolved into the sophisticated machines out there now-some of which that sell for several thousand dollars.

There was one guy from another area in California that one of the mountain bike pioneers, Gary Fisher, had met-and Gary had gleaned some ideas off this guy's bike.

Long story short, Gary is known in some circles as the "father of the mountain bike," because he actually did something with the idea and built it into a successful business. After a time, the other guy that had some good ideas on his bike dropped out of the scene, never to be heard from again in a biking context. The author, Berto, though acknowledging the guy's contributions, didn't give him credit for being "the father" because he didn't really do anything with the idea from a public perspective.

But Berto is also careful not to declare Fisher to be the official "father" because, there were a lot of things being done in different areas that fell under the "critical mass" line of thinking.

There could have been any number of bands of hippie musicians in pockets around the country that were combining some rock and roll sounds,with the pedal steel and a sense of twang. Some famous and some obscure. But the point is, like the mountain bike origin story-is that those folks didn't put the sound on the map.

When Dylan's John Wesley Harding came out-the country feel was evident-but I remember trying to figure out what he was up to-which was the mindset of many in our generation: "Now what is Dylan up to this time?"

I believe that album was released in 1967 and "Sweetheart of the Rodeo" was released in 1968.

Although Buck Owens was definitely prominent-I can remember after listening to "Sweetheart of The Rodeo" a few times and thinking: "Wow-McGuinn and company have put together an album that combine rock and country!" Along with looking at the cover art, which added to the mood.

For me it will always be The Byrds "Sweetheart of the Rodeo" album that was the spawning of the "critical mass" for country rock. Hillman was there for that one, so he has to be considered a key player-but not necessarily the exclusive "father."

------------------
Mark

[This message was edited by Mark Eaton on 14 August 2006 at 03:49 PM.]

The Buckaroos were an excellent California bar band... in fact, they set the standard for bar bands everywhere: sparse instrumentation, simple arrangements, twangy guitars, single fiddle (not 2-3 fiddles/violins) two-part vocal harmonies. They eschewed the lush string arrangements, multi-rhythm instruments, and background vocal choruses that were coming out of Nashville in the early 60's and later. They were a return to the roots of country and were a reaction to the Nashville Sound created by Owen Bradley, Chet Atkins, Billy Sherrill, and producers of that type.

Buck's music could be faithfully reproduced by almost any four-or-five piece honky-tonk country band in any area of the country.

My personal definition of a country rock player is one who did not grow up on country music, and did not hang out with rednecks; rather, his/her first musical experiences were rock based or folk-music based, generally post-Beatles. That would include almost all the "country-rockers" we're discussing.

The difference between "traditional country" and "country rock" is not so much musical as it is attitude.

Buck played music that was revolutionary in comparison to the Nashville sound, but he never flipped anyone off from the stage, his band wore uniforms, were clean-cut, spoke patriotically, and never questioned authority.

The Burritos wore Nudie suits with marijuana leaves all over them, and made no bones about the fact they got high. It was satire mixed with rebellion. They didn't play for farmers and construction workers in honky-tonks; they played for hippies. That attitude is the spirit of rock and roll, regardless of what's coming out of the amplifiers.

Ralph Emery pegged the difference right away when he put the Byrds' album up on the wall of WSM with the sign reading "This is NOT A COUNTRY RECORD! DO NOT PLAY THIS RECORD!"

That sign of course spawned the song "Drug Store Truck Driving Man," found on the "Notorious Byrd Bros." album.

The guys I played with in the country bar bands in the suburbs around LA were frequently clueless about the rock scene happening in Hollywood.

When country-rooted musicians decided the hippie musicians had something and became rebellious themselves was in the early 70's when Willie Nelson, Waylon Jennings, and Tompall Glaser started the "Outlaw" movement. That emanated from Texas and Nashville, though. Not California.

------------------
Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 14 August 2006 at 04:30 PM.]

Of all the posts, I think you've got it nailed. I don't think it's possible to pick a "Father," I think my nod would be to Chris Hillman because in my mind he's the one who kept everything...in 1967 - 1970 ...together. I think Parsons has his place, but where the rubber meets the road, unfortunately he was too stoned most of the time to keep things together. Hillman did, and I think that's what solidifies him in the the history books as the catalyst as far as I'm concerned. Gram may have made the initial spark, though, no doubt. Herb's right, the movement was all about hippies getting turned onto country. Sure Buck played country with a rock beat, but the "movement" was all about counter culture:Poco, International Submarine Band, NRPS, The Dead, Nesmith, Byrds, FBB, Eagles, etc.

------------------
Mike
------------------
Blue Moon Highway
(Country Music...and then some.)
www.bluemoonhighway.com

ZB Custom S-10 (#0509)

Was Parsons responsible for the idea of "Sweetheart of the Rodeo?"

I have no idea.

I have tremendous respect and admiration for the musical accomplishments of McGuinn, Hillman, and Parsons-but what crossed the t's and dotted the i's for me on that album, and sort of made it even more "legit," was the presence of Clarence White, JayDee Maness, and Lloyd Green.

------------------
Mark

[This message was edited by Mark Eaton on 14 August 2006 at 05:07 PM.]

But it would have required you, if you came upon someone actually smoking a doobie, to:

1) not be shocked
2) not call the cops;
3) not call for an intervention; and
4) not tell him/her that he/she's going to Hell and you're praying for his/her immortal soul.

------------------
Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

I like your 4 criteria, Herb.

[This message was edited by Rick McDuffie on 14 August 2006 at 07:56 PM.]

You are so right. I never smoked pot but you couldn't escape the smell in the concerts!

Your hair was around at that time, but your body hadn't quite made it out of the womb yet.

------------------
Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

You can imagine my surprise upon checking my e-mails last night and there was one in the in box from Lloyd Green. Lloyd asked me to post his email on the subject, specifically how it relates to his involvement in "Sweetheart of the Rodeo." So here you go:

quote:

---

There have been a lot of words, opinions and thoughts expressed here about this seminal album, but not a single word by someone who was there and part of the process. I was.
First, the Byrds came to Nashville to record as a direct result of the floodgates being opened by Bob Dylan in 1967. In fact, the very first song we recorded was Dylan's, " You Ain't Going Nowhere". Gram, Roger, Kevin and Chris all spoke in reverent terms each time Dylan's name was mentioned.
Gram told me they felt the choices for steel guitar in Nashville were limited to Pete Drake or me. I don't know if they had heard of Weldon Myrick or Hal Rugg at that time since their names were never mentioned. In any event they wanted, and got, me.
I always felt their original intentions were to record the entire album here but there were immediate problems. When they entered the studio that first recording date, Monday, March 11th, 1968 at 2 PM they were chagrined to find Columbia Studios in Nashville only had 8-track recording machines. We were about a year behind L. A. where they had been recording with 16-tracks.
After several exasperating hours of trying to sync two 8-trackers together the engineers gave up. Gary Usher, the producer said we would record with 8 tracks and they would convert to 16 when they returned to L.A., thus providing them additional tracks for overdubs and additional recording.
The obvious spokesman and leader of this expedition was, in my view, Gram Parsons. He always seemed to be the most outspoken and assertive of the group, to the point of always having the last word when suggestions were made.
My session book shows the Ralph Emery radio visit to have been on Thursday night, March 14th, 1968, after recording 3 sessions that day, 10, 2 and 6. We arrived at around 1:30 AM at the radio station on 7th Ave. So.on the 5th floor of the National Life Building. Emery wasted no time in insulting both the Byrds and me, asking they why they would come to Nashville and cut their so-called Country album when they were obviously not Country! Then he turned to me asking, "Lloyd, why would you lend your talents to this?" I replied, "Because they asked me."
This incident was the genesis and later recording of their drugstore, truck driving song they wrote about him in retaliation. As for the so-called "Sweetheart" album being posted with a note to not play it.....I never heard that story before and find it to be specious and not credible. Hell, those DJs at WSM were not stupid. They would never have played anything without first auditioning it and didn't have to be reminded this album was not their vision of country music! That story doesn't sound authentic to me and I doubt Ralph Emery, who was my friend, would have taken such a dictatorial stance even though he could be quite caustic and opinionated.
Anyway, you know I played the Opry with them on Saturday night, March 16th with much of the attendant and strange, to me, reception. There's a lot more to that part of the story which I won't go into.
They asked me if I would come to L.A. to record some more of the album with them and I said, "If it's far enough out to where I'm not booked". In those days I was pretty much booked three months in advance as were all of the top studio players. Anyway, Gram Parsons later called me and asked if I could make the trek to finish the album (they had subsequently cut 5 or 6 of the album songs with my buddy, J.D. Maness). We found a week-end I was available and I flew to LAX where a limousine picked me up and whisked me to the CBS studios in Hollywood where we recorded "One Hundred Years From Now" and the instrumental track featuring Clarence White and me, "All I Have Are Memories". My recollection is that Clarence and I made that one up, called out some chords and started playing, although neither of us received any album credit. That song has, to date, been accredited to 4 different writers, none of whom had the name Lloyd Green or Clarence White. At the very least, we sure as hell wrote what each of us played on the song.
Later, Gram and Roger called me to ask if I would play their (later aborted) world tour, gently asking me if I said yes would I grow my hair a lot longer, stating they would be booed off the stage if they showed up on stage with a short-haired, conservative looking steel guitar player! I said, "Yes, I had no problem with the hair thing but I couldn't take the time away from my studio career to do a world tour". That was received with a chucke on the other end of the line and they didn't press me further. Ironically, this was the reverse side of what had actually happened to them in that Opry appearance, the audience booing before they even got to the mikes....simply because they had long hair (but they sang anyway). I was embarrassed and ashamed at what was happening that night at the iconic Ryman Auditorium.

Lloyd Green

---

The "album on wall" story, which I've heard since the early 70's, must have entered the pantheon of "Urban Legend," based on Emery's acknowledged animosity towards the Byrds at that time. I admit that I learned of the episode second-hand, relatively soon after the Emery confrontation occurred. The details may have been augmented by the repetition of the story that was circulating around the music people I hung out with in LA at that time. Clarence and I were friends and I do remember his disappointment about the WSM visit episode. Clarence told me they weren't that well received in Nashville.

Remember, those were very challenging times for our country. Viet Nam was raging, and the population was divided culturally, politically, and conservative America was at odds with the youth revolution happening on the East and West coasts.

I do remember feeling surprised when Linda R. told me, in 1970, that she was going to record in Nashville with her producer Eliot Mazer. The album became her most country record, "Silk Purse," the one with her posing in the manger for the cover shot. She introduced me to Kenny Buttrey when he came out to LA to do some overdubs, and Jim Buchanan as well. I recall Weldon was the steel player on that recording, but his tracks were done in Nashville.

Regardless, Emery is still undisputedly among the pillars of country music broadcasting history. As are the Byrds in the history of pop music of that era. The passing years brought, if not an end to the polarization, at least a mellowing and softening of the attitudes that caused such friction. And the music is of course the better for it.

------------------
Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 15 August 2006 at 08:03 AM.]

For sure. Maybe this is one big part of what Parson's legacy is- that by attempting this hybrid of the two genres, he contributed to the lessening OF the polarization. My father was one of those "pro-Nam" types, a Bud-drinking, white-shoes & white belt kind of sometime fan of country music, and when I discovered him (one day) listening to the New Riders and cutting a rug (by himself) in the dining room, I knew that (truly) the entire idea of a "generation gap" was actually a fiction concocted by half-baked pseudo "revolutionaries" without imaginations.
Music works wonders,in places where miracles are often needed.

But what the heck do you do if you are born white? In the ‘60s many white young people were involved in a huge rebellion against the dominant white culture of the conformist ‘50s, and this was true not only on the East and West coasts, but all across the country, even the Southeast and Southwest. Now the idea of ethnic consciousness wasn’t just to declare everything about your ethnic culture superior, but to pick and choose, so you could rebel against the things that you considered bad, and embrace the things that were good. So when rebellious white young people examined their roots, one of the good things they found was country music. After all, rock was good, and it had come straight from a mixture of white country music and black R&B. Also, the urban left-liberal citybilly folkies had laid the foundations with the idea that folk music was the music of the people; and country music and bluegrass were derived directly from folk music.

So what you had in the late ‘60s was all these young people involved in this total rebellion against white culture, but a few of whom reached back and decided that country music was a part of white roots that was good, and shouldn’t be rejected. This was a sort of rebellion within the rebellion, because youth culture had mostly rejected country music from the time of Elvis and the birth of rock’n’roll. And that had progressed to the point of psychedelic album rock, which had become heavily influenced by blues, and identified with the black freedom movement. White country music seemed to be at the opposite end of the political spectrum. But if you are white, that is part of your American roots. And the ethnic consciousness thing said it was okay to pick the good parts of your roots. Naturally, people who thought puritanical religion and conservative politics were also the good parts of the roots resented long-haired hippies taking up country music.

But the point of all this, to get back to the definition of country-rock, is that the West coast hippies who started country-rock came from a rebellious youth culture that had previously rejected country music. So part of the ethos of country-rock is that you are rejecting that rejection, and making a u-turn and embracing a part of your heritage that was formerly rejected. Yes, you had to have smoked a doobie and grown long hair. There were plenty of people previously who had mixed elements of country and rock’n’roll. Elvis and Wanda Jackson and Buck Owens had taken elements of country and kicked things in the direction of rock. But they didn’t come from the ‘60s counterculture. You had to be part of that counter-culture that rejected country music, before you could be part of the country-rock roots movement. If you played country music before you played rock or country-rock, then you were a genuine country musician. Nothing wrong with that. In fact, the country-rockers admired country musicians and wanted to coloborate with them, because of their purity – they were the real deal.

So country-rock is not just any blending of country and rock elements. It is a particular style that is tied to a particular time and a particular sociopolitical context. Of course there are some individuals who grew up with country and rock (Buddy Cage comes to mind). Southern rock sort of came out of that. But just because you can find some people who span categories doesn’t mean the core categories don’t exist, or are meaningless divisions. Most of us know the core styles of country, rockabilly, rock’n’roll, country-rock, Southern rock, and modern commercial rock-country. The fact that they overlap, and some things are hard to categorize doesn’t mean the core styles are the same thing. We mostly know the difference when we hear them.

------------------
Student of the Steel: Zum uni, Fender tube amps, squareneck and roundneck resos, tenor sax, keyboards

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 15 August 2006 at 10:18 AM.]

Glad I don't have to go through the whole thing of what country-rock is as opposed to the killer bar band.
By the way, when Jay Dee Maness was with Buck, it was 1969, some time after he had played on the International Submarine Band and Sweetheart of The Rodeo sessions.

I think most would agree that Buck is an influence, not an originator of country-rock, there's quite a difference.
At no point do I wish to play down how important he was in the West Coast sound, he and the Buckaroos were massive and highly influentual.

Same goes for Wanda Jackson, I'm totally with Herb. Heck she was a country gal who did duets with Hank Thompson before Elvis turned her head to rockabilly. You'd also be hard pressed to find anything remotely rockin' about her 1960s sides for Capitol, she settled in for the long haul as a rather nice country singer and recorded for Capitol Nashville.

My only gripe about Linda is that Capitol never issued a live album from the early to mid 1970s when she had great songs, arrangements and sidemen.
That is not to say that he late 1960s bands weren't anything but way cool, a certain poster here was her first steel player and will always hold a place in history for those of us that care.

I we're looking for more definition of the term/genre (and if you're not, you might as well skip the rest of this post) I nominate 1966 as the year country-rock was birthed onto the world, so huzzah; it's 40 years ago this year.

Herbster, David Jackson was the bassist with Herts & Flowers, he also played with The Moon, Dillard & Clarke, T-Bone Burnette, John Stewart and others.

On the topic of Dylan, the reason I focused on his '66 sessions so is that they're often used as a signpost to where he switched to country-rock, I could nto disagree more.
His first sessions in Nashville were primarily with R&B and blues pickers, he picked up the relaxed rootsy sound of 'John Wesly Harding' from hanging out and picking all day with the Band in Woodstock, it's a no brainer.
The Bob's, Dylan and his producer Johnston, chose a really stripped down sound when they recorded the follow-up, it's not really a testament to Nashville at all.

Whereas the Beau Brummels and Ian & Sylvia really utilised the whole country vibe and experience of their pickers, in effect going for progressive country by not trying to.

Tracy Nelson and Mother Earth are a good call, there's a lot of country-rock bands, it's not just a West Coast thing, but it's real genesis as a style rather than a few freakish spin-offs, is a mostly West Coast movement.

Essentially there are no true country-rock albums prior to 1968, a couple were cut in 1967, but didn't surface until the following year.
Some folks have pointed to the 'Gene Clark & The Gosdin Brothers' LP by Gene, cut in '66 and issued in '67, or certain Byrds (pre-Sweetheart)and Buffalo Springfield albums, but '68 was when the albums started appearing in whgat could be truly catorgorized as country-rock.

The Sweetheart of the Rodeo was a reaction by the Byrds to Gram's presence, originally McGuinn was trying for a true Americana concept, he wanted an album that ranged from old timey to electronic music, after Gram and Hillman hijacked the band that wider scope was ditched for the whole country trip.

Then you have the pre-Parsons prject as mentioned by another poster,"The Notorious Byrd Brothers." Man, my older brothers and I wore that one out! Some beautiful steel playing, in some spacey arrangements-it is my understanding that it was Red Rhodes.

I go back to "Sweetheart of the Rodeo"-not that the the elements weren't present in the music of the others cited-but The Byrds were a major band.

Just like my mountain bike analogy, there were other guys around tinkering with the concept, but the guy who took it and ran with it was Gary Fisher. It really became "all the rage" a few years later when the larger bike company, Specialized started to extensively produce their first assembly line model known as the Stumpjumper, and people really caught on to the sport-maybe the Stumpjumper was the mountain bike equivalent of "Into the Gilded Palace of Sin" or Poco's "Pick Up the Pieces."

------------------
Mark

[This message was edited by Mark Eaton on 15 August 2006 at 10:46 AM.]

Today in the mainstream "hot country" with a handful of exceptions, Rascal Flatts, SheDaisy, etc.,-the group thing is out.

Now it's Tim, Faith, Kenny, Gretchen, Martina, George, Miranda, etc.