First two words out of his mouth: "Gram Parsons."

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Must disagree with Donny about Wanda Jackson, who was undoubtedly before Linda R., but was a 50's rockabilly chick.

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It's fine to disagree with me Herb...but that won't change my mind. A lot of people thought the "country-rock" stuff was new. But stylistically, it had much in common with what's called "rockabilly" now. Rockabilly was a cross between old rock and country (albeit, old country). Country-rock was quite similar, almost a rehash of what had been done a couple of decades earlier as rockabilly. The genre has no idols for me, and I found nothing astonishingly new and clever about it.

Similarly, though Dylan was constantly called "new and entirely different" ny so many, he was just a newer, younger folk singer to me...much along the same lines as Woody Guthrie. (That's not a slam, but a compliment, since Woody's often thought of as America's greatest and most prolific folk singer/writer).

Gram Parsons? I always thought he was stylistically similar to Buddy Holly, except for Gram using Sneaky Pete on steel. They were both young kids, combining country and rock, and winding up...being somewhere in between. (Listen to Gram's "Devil In Disguise", and Buddy's "Rave On" to see what I mean.)

Linda Ronstadt? Her hit "Silver Threads and Golden Needles" is real similar to Wanda Jacksons version...only without the "twanggy southern drawl". The same can be said for Linda's hit rendition of "That'll Be The Day". If that ain't genuine rockabilly, I'll buy you a beer!

Nope. Y'all can draw that distinct line between country-rock and rockabilly if you want, but for me it just ain't there. I was there and experienced both, and there's just too many similarities for me to consider the late '60s country-rock thing as something completely new and different.

I, like Donny feel there were a few that influenced GP and CH..Wanda Jackson, Lets have a Party...in my early years I about wore that 45 out...

I think GP and Hillman deserve tons of credit for taking an earlier theme and bringing it to a new audience and a new level.

I think Hillmans best adventure was the Desert Rose band..the lineup was exciting and clearly had a spark..with Chris leading the way it was clear to me that the boy had this stuff down pat...This band showed he was NOT a sideman...and it didn't hurt that JD was in that lineup thats for sure...

Grandfather of CR ? I don't see it that way..but a leader, inovator and very creative..oh yeh..you bet...

If I had to lay the title on anyone I too would offer it to GP...
t

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 16 August 2006 at 04:03 PM.]

I haven't gone back over all my posts, but I don't believe I ever said that the music was anything new, but rather the initial musical influences of the CR players and thier audiences were what was new.

But let me ask you this: If, as you say, the late 60's CR bands really only brought a new audience to an already existing style, would you not also say that the "Progressive Blue Grass" movement... a la Tony Trischka, Peter Wernik, Hot Rize, Sam Bush, New Grass Revival, John Cowan, et.al,... really didn't start anything new per se, but just brought a new audience to the same old Monroe / Flatt & Scruggs bluegrass?

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[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 16 August 2006 at 04:46 PM.]

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Hillman...clearly knew where his strong suit was and how to take advantage of it

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But let me ask you this: If, as you say, the late 60's CR bands really only brought a new audience to an already existing style, would you not also say that the "Progressive Blue Grass" movement... a la Tony Trischka, Peter Wernik, Hot Rize, Sam Bush, New Grass Revival, John Cowan, et.al,... really didn't start anything new per se, but just brought a new audience to the same old Monroe / Flatt & Scruggs bluegrass?

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Yes Herb, that's sorta how I feel. I draw parallels and connections with music I've heard before. You mentioned Trishka; I find most of his stuff a lot closer to old 'grass than I do artists like Alison Krause, who many call the hottest "bluegrass star" (?) in years. Same for Hot Rize, I really don't think they're that far at all from Monroe and Stanley.

'Bout a decade ago (maybe a little more), Bruce Springsteen was about the hottest thing in pop-rock music. Listening to one of his early hits at a club one night, I kept telling myself "I've heard that sound and vocal style before...long, long ago?" Well, an evening poring through my early (1950's) 45's revealed exactly what I'd suspected! A group named The Johnny Burnette Trio did a few records that sounded (to me), eeriely and incredibly like that Springsteen tune...that had just made the charts!

[This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 16 August 2006 at 06:46 PM.]

I was in North Mississippi in the '50s and played sax in a rockabilly band. The essence of rockabilly is a raucous, hard, driving sound. Lay your finger across the first four strings of a guitar for an A6 chord, turn up the reverb, and sing with a growl. It's all twangy guitar, upright bass, and sax, rarely with some lap steel. It was like that in the '50s. It was like that in the rockabilly rebirth of the '80s (Stray Kats, Blasters, X, Cramps), and it is still like that today (I play around here with some neorockabilly groups).

But it's 5am now, the Skeeter is hooked up to the truck, and I'm off to Lake Austin. Talk to you guys after I reek havoc on some black bass.

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[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 17 August 2006 at 02:45 AM.]

Hillman was part of the band, Sneaky Pete was part of the band, Rusty Young was part of the band, Al Perkins was part of the band. The recordings were about the band and the music..not really about the vocalist. Now obviously there were exceptions to the Nashville rule, such as ET and the gang.

But the CR groups that emerged were formed as a UNIT..and then DIED as a unit...

When I went to see the Springfield, I knew who was gonna be there on stage , When I went to see POCO, I went because of WHO WAS gonna be there....

I didn't have to ask who was on Steel or who was on the Telecaster...or which one is Richie Furay ..

I think thats part of the equation...each member had there own identities...still do..hence

Chris Hillman !

see how it works...

I think these guys bridged a very large gap that was just begging to be bridged.

I couldn't imagine in a million years going to a band practice ( thats what we called them) and bringing a Charlie Pride record with me..but bringing a Byrds record or a Sringfield record, even Kind Woman with Rusty on Steel...was accepted as totally cool to us rockers back then...

These CR groups allowed us to play Country Music without actually having to tell anyone we were actually playing Country Music !

"He dude, this isn't Country Music, it's Country Rock"..

" Oh yeh..far out man, I love Country Rock, but I can't stand Country Music"...

t

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 17 August 2006 at 03:26 AM.]

Tony Prior, you make an excellent point about the country-rock bands, being for the most part actual bands.
In more than a few cases there was more than one lead singer, they approached playing live, recording and touring like rock bands. Unlike Rockabilly, they weren't country boys who listened to too much blues, they dug Bluegrass, Buck Owens and the Beatles among other things.

However, I have to differ partially on this... "But the CR groups that emerged were formed as a UNIT..and then DIED as a unit."

Actually most of the country-rock bands had someone split quite early, or suffered continual line-up changes almost immediately and in most cases, went through multiple line-ups for years.

Poco and the Flying Burrito Brothers are prime examples as the version that cut the debut were not the version that actually ended up touring them.

Point in fact, the Burritos didn't have a full time drummer from their live debut in '68 until early '69 when Michael Clarke joined, and Mike was not on the debut.
By late '69 founder member Chris Ethridge was replaced by Bernie Leadon who came from Ronstadt's road band the Corvettes.
In 1970 Gram was gone, by the end of 1971 everyone one was gone bar Rick Roberts, a member for close to 18 months.

Poco had Randy Meisner quit during the mix of their debut and he was not credited as a full member when the debut came out, and they toured the album without a full time replacement until early 1970.
They also lost another founder member in 1970 when Jim Messina left.

The Corvettes had a line-up change in the first year, The Pure Prairie League had John Call split and then rejoin after the debut, and suffered so many desertions that their second had to be finished with studio help.
Michael Nesmith's First National Band lasted less than two years, the spin-off Second National Band lasted less than half of that.

Poco, and the Burritos toured through the 1970s with an identity, a band identity, with massive changes all round, at least Poco kept a key member the whole time. (yay Rusty)

Dillard & Clark had two albums with different line-ups, Heart & Flowers had several line-ups, although they were similar ones on both of their albums.
Ronstadt, well she had more great bands than you could possibly imagine in a short period of time.

The New Riders changed line-up several times by their debut, got a new steeler after the debut and a new bassist not long after. Six years from their debut, only one founder member. Like Poco, PPL, the FBBs the New Riders went on into the 1980s with hardly any original members in sight.

However, this for me, defines the concept of what a band is. Various members coming together in a style, a style that changes with personnel and time, but essentially a band sound.
It's an important point by Tony, they were bands, they wanted roadies, techs, to play rock clubs... I'd have to guess that most of the country-rockers did not want to play on the Opry, most of the ones that left their home state moved to the West Coast or Texas, the singer-songwriter types are the ones who gravitated towards Nashville.

Re: Rockabilly is Country Rock:

Donny, I don't know what rockabilly records you have, but all the ones I have sound very, very little like the Country-rock albums I have.

For a start, in Rockabilly there's next to no harmonies, and exaggerated hiccuping vocals, explosive drumming and galloping bass are hardly hallmarks of any country-rock outfit.

To help with the confusion I might add that the Everly Brothers and Buddly Holly are not strictly Rockabilly, but the next step, Rock 'n' Roll. That's what it became as the pop element took over from the wild R&B and Hillbilly Boogie that preceeded and infused early Rockabilly.

I might lack Herb's tact, but I'm with the Herbster on this one. David Doggett nailed it as well, I originally missed his post, but he makes some fine stylistic distinctions that were the hallmark of both genres, distinctions that also seperate them as a sound and genres as a whole.

You note that "The genre has no idols for me, and I found nothing astonishingly new and clever about it."

Well that's simple, it's obviously not a style for your taste.

Now, you might say that we can't draw a distinct line between country-rock and rockabilly, and that's an interesting point, but by simply lumping them together because you can't tell the difference, you hardly have much further to offer on the subject, surely?

What could define the difference more than the records the Rockabilly artists were making in 1968-69, I have a heap of Elvis, Charlie Rich, Billy Lee Riley and Jerry Lee Lewis that mix R&B, white soul, Las Vegas lounge antics and mega-weeper ballads, that's what happens when you adult contempory what Rockabilly essentially was. (by the way... I love all those records as much as rockabilly)

And Dylan was a key player in the program, as witnessed by Lloyd Green where in the e-mail of his that I posted, he wrote: "Gram, Roger, Kevin and Chris all spoke in reverent terms each time Dylan's name was mentioned."

Hmm...first time I have ever heard of our East Bay Area (from El Cerrito) band, Creedence-referred to anything in the context of "redneck."

Chris Hillman was here a couple of weeks ago to play at The Turning Point in Piermont, NY. Chris played mandolin on all but one song, while Herb Pederson accompanied him on guitar. Chris was wearing his Flying Burrito Brothers T-shirt.

Much of the concert was drawn from Chris's latest album, The Other Side (2005) ... plus a couple of songs by Buck Owens. Chris spoke of how much he respected and missed Buck, and of having played "The Other Side" (the song which gave the album its title) at Buck's funeral. He said he had written it a few months before, and had no idea that he would be called upon to play it at his friend's funeral.

Last month, Dan Penn (who co-wrote "Do Right Woman" and "Dark End of the Street" on FBB's Gilded Palace of Sin album) also appeared at The Turning Point, together with a Tucson-based band called the Hacienda Brothers which he has been producing. (The Hacienda Brothers feature David Berzansky on steel guitar.)

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But how can you ignore the big differences - in the temporal, cultural and musical backgrounds of the progenitors - and in the final sounds? Come on, Donny - it's not all the same.

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David, I don't really "ignore" the differences, I merely feel that from my own perspective, they're not really as profound and significant as they are to those who idolize the country-rock genre. Of course, I'm well aware of the differences in their temporal and cultural backgrounds, and they were significant. I just don't see that big a difference in the final product, the music.