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Bob
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Some might say Gram Parsons deserves the title, but I say that Gram wasn't around long enough to see it happen. Same with Clarence White, unfortunately.

Others did their part, but Chris pulled it all together and took things to a level that is still relevant and very active.

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Someone asked me the other day if I thought Gram Parsons would be as famous as he is today if he had lived. What do you think?

Link Wray.

Not much question there..

EJL

[This message was edited by Eric West on 13 August 2006 at 03:19 PM.]

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[This message was edited by Steve Hinson on 13 August 2006 at 03:51 PM.]

I'd say the first true "country rock" performers that I recall seeing were Michael Martin Murphey and (Forumite) Boomer Castleman in a band called "The Texas Two." They had John McEuen playing banjo and John London on bass. This was 1966. Of course they became some of my closest friends and musical partners.

Later they became a folk-rock band called the "Lewis and Clark Expedition," around 1968. In fact, I nabbed John London on bass from them for Ronstadt's band and it pissed off Murphey for awhile.

But the late 60's country rock scene in LA was a melting pot where the rockers met the songwriters who met the folksingers and bluegrassers, and all of them started picking with each other, using a few players from the country bar band scene (who, IMHO, were the "authentic" country players.)

The rockers that I recall were the guys from the Springfield crowd (Stills, Young, Furay) and their imports like Randy Meisner, and Tim Schmidt. Also Shiloh, the band from TX that had Don Henley, Jim Ed Norman, the Bowden Cousins (Richard and Michael), and Al Perkins.

The folksingers were the pre-Byrds-types: Jim McGuinn, David Crosby, the very under-mentioned Gene Clark, and more. Michael Nesmith from San Antonio. And Linda Rondstadt from AZ. And Mac Davis from Lubbock. Also the Nitty Gritty Dirt Band from Long Beach CA (which originally was a jug band), one of the founding members being Jackson Browne. Also Glen Frey and John David Souther who immigrated from Detroit and Amarillo respectively.

The bluegrassers had in their numbers Bernie Leadon from Florida, John McEuen, Doug and Rodney Dillard from MO, Clarence White, Herb Pedersen, Bob Warford, Dennis Morris, yours truly, etc. and Vern Gosdin.

Yes, THAT Vern Gosdin. I used to see him pick all the time in bluegrass bands with his late brother Rex on bass, Chris H. on mando, and Don Parmley on banjo. They were called the Blue Diamond Boys. The recordings they made were later dubbed the "Hillmen" after Chris became a rock star with the Byrds.

These guys all got together with the bar band pickers like Gib Guilbeau, Sneaky, Red Rhodes, Jerry Cole, Jay Dee Maness, Earl Ball, Delaney Bramlett, Wayne Moore, and others. Buddy Emmons was living in LA at the time and did a lot of work as well, though he mainly played bass for Roger Miller at the time.

Yes, then there was the Int'l. Submarine Band. Gram, John Nuese, John Corneal, and Bob ? whose name I forgot. Red and Gram told me to audition for them and I did, but didn't make the cut. I really couldn't pick much then anyway, it was right after Ronstadt.

Who played with whom is really such a complicated family tree, only Jason Odd can do enough research to put it all together. I hope Jason does eventually chime in with his input since my memory dims with the years.

I met Rusty Young when I was first learning steel and playing with Linda Ronstadt in 1968. I was a bluegrasser that Linda had hired to play dobro and mando. She pushed me into steel and with the help of Red R. and Nesmith (whom I became friends with through picking 'grass with Murphey and Boomer) I went the steel route.

Complicated? You bet! My head is already aching. But it was a very exciting time to be young, not concerned about Viet Nam, and totally into musical creativity.

I moved to Texas with Murphey in 1972 and got involved in the Progressive Texas Country thing, which was a parallel movement that post-dated the California scene by about 5 years.

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[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 13 August 2006 at 04:47 PM.]

So - although I don't really think there is a single "Father of Country Rock" - IMO, the mainstream album that really signaled the arrival of country rock is Bob Dylan's "John Wesley Harding" from 1967. Dylan also used a Nashville session band much earlier on Blonde on Blonde, and showed hints of what was to come, IMO. I don't think anybody would argue that Dylan was not a huge influence on this movement. To me, if anybody actually could claim to be a true progenitor of the style, it would be him, and I wouldn't argue that either.

The Beau Brummels also hinted at country rock in their earlier music, but 1968's "Bradley's Barn" codified it, then they disbanded, so are generally largely uncredited. To me, that record sounds more like current alt-country than the smooth LA thing that eventually got called country rock. But to me, the strong country influences are unmistakable.

Similarly, The Int'l Submarine Band was another early effort, although not recognized in the mainstream at the time.

Another important influence on this was Ian and Sylvia Tyson, which gradually morphed into their country rock band The Great Speckled Bird.

Of course, Chris Hillman was extremely influential - his earlier bluegrass band The Golden State Boys / Blue Diamond Boys with Don Parmley and the Gosdin Brothers was influential much like the Kentucky Colonels with Clarence and Roland White. He is a constant thread from there through the Byrds to the FBB to Desert Rose. But to me, I agree with Herb and Steve that this whole thing was a huge amalgamation of things going on more-or-less concurrently, and in somewhat different directions. LA was not the only place where important stuff was happening, IMO.

My first ever performance on steel guitar was that tune played with Linda on the Steve Allen Show, which was taped at a theatre on Vine St. between Sunset and H'wood Blvds. I had a camera shot on my solo and my hands were shaking so bad it looked like I had Parkinson's Disease!!

Re: the Golden State Boys / Blue Diamond Boys. They were really two separate bands though related. Parmley played banjo in both. The original GSBs were Herb Rice on mando (father of Tony, Larry and Wyatt), Tom Keuhl on guitar, Hal Poindexter on guitar, Skip Conover on dobro, and Rex Gosdin on bass.

Tony (guitar), Larry (mando), and Wyatt (bass) also had a "teenage" 'grass band called the Haphazards. Kind of a junior version of the GSBs. Larry actually wanted to be a steel player, but he was the oldest son and his dad wanted him to play mando, so he did.

Bobby Slone also played fiddle with the GSBs... his first 'grass gig since he was a country fiddler... before joining the Kentucky Colonels after Scotty Stoneman split back for Maryland. He later went on the JD Crowe and New South. Roland was my mando teacher at the time and he told me he had to instruct Bobby on how to play 'grass style.

When Herb Rice left, Chris left the Scottsville Squirrel Barkers in San Diego and came up to LA and played with the GSBs. The Squirrels had Larry Murray on dobro who later became a producer in LA, and Kenny Wertz on banjo, who later joined the Country Gazette.

The Blue Diamond Boys were formed with the reshuffling of the GSBs.

You are absolutely correct about the other bands you mentioned. Like I said, the memory grows dim with the years.

I did see Ian and Sylvia originally at the Ash Grove, when they were a duo and had Harvey Brooks on bass and Monte ? on guitar. A few years later they came back to the Troubadour and had Amos Garrett on guitar and Buddy Cage on steel in the Great Speckled Bird. Buddy had a green Emmons as I recall.

No one has mentioned the New Riders in this thread but they were the Berkeley/Marin version of what was going on in LA.

Rich
I was there for both of those gigs as well! Were you the guy that spilled the drink on my girlfriend?

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[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 13 August 2006 at 06:40 PM.]

quote:

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I had a camera shot on my solo and my hands were shaking so bad it looked like I had Parkinson's Disease!!

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Edit: sorry about being redundant with the book thing... Frank's post wasn't there when I wrote this...!

[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 13 August 2006 at 07:20 PM.]

About 4-5 years ago, I was at a large picking party here in Austin at my friend Tom Pittman's (Austin Lounge Lizards) house, just casually playing dobro with various conglomerations. I thought I knew one lady singer, but I couldn't place her. I finally asked her if we had met before and she said she was Sylvia Fricker! She then mentioned Monte when I asked her "who was the guy..." Sylvia had put on quite a bit of weight.

Harvey Brooks left NYC, moved to SF and played with Mike Bloomfield, Mark Naftalin, Buddy Miles, and Nick Gravenites in the Electric Flag. But they weren't part of the country rock thing.

The California blues/rock thing was happening simulataneously, but that's another thread entirely.

Johnny B
I haven't read Hotel California, though I'm sure lots of my friends and old acquaintances are in there. I lived at 1642 Sierra Bonita with my roommate Michael Ney, ex-drummer for Clear Light. It was at H'wood Blvd, about 1/2 mile from Laurel Canyon. We were both playing in the Beechwood Rangers, a band Russ Giguere had after he left The Association. I was basically playing in "Tex," the band I had with Boomer and Murphey. This was 1970-1971, before I moved to TX. I was also playing in the bar bands by then, where I really learned my steel chops. There was a lot of work going on in those days.

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[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 14 August 2006 at 12:59 AM.]

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Man, back then I wanted to be in that scene some kinda bad... but Dad said I had to finish junior high school first

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Sorry if this sounds sexist.

But I've never gotten over the cover of "Hasten Down The Wind" As with many things, I expect the anticipation is better than the reality.

I certainly see a thread of continuity between the Rockabilly guys, Buck Owens, the Beatles (Honey Don't, Everybody's Trying to Be My Baby, I Feel Fine, Act Naturally, etc.) and what happened on the West Coast. Michael Nesmith certainly brought a country/Texas vibe to the Monkees- remember "Papa Gene's Blues" and "Sweet Young Thing"? That was early- '65-'66.

I would not agree that it started with Hillman... I think it was a collective synergy that drew heavily on its antecendents. As the Good Book says, "There is nothing new under the sun".

[This message was edited by Rick McDuffie on 14 August 2006 at 07:22 AM.]

Now who you call the "father" of country-rock depends on what you mean by "father." Is it the very first, regardless of obscurity; or the first that was widely popular; or the first to have a sustained national success; or the one who had the most influence on the genre? Herb and others who were there can put names to each one of those fathers - fascinating story. Can we all agree Linda Ronstadt was the mother of country rock?

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 14 August 2006 at 07:47 AM.]

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Really enjoyable posts, Rich... you know man when you first mentioned the FBBs playing the Troub' I was blown away, not a lot is made of the earliest version of the band, they most likely used drummer Chuck Blackwell from the Shindig! show band the Shindogs and at the time part of the most awesome Taj Mahal Band. Gram and the Taj crowd, Jesse Ed, etc seemed to be tight, G.P. was a networker, that's for sure.

In a '72 interview Sneaky Pete mentions Chuck, in later years that sort of info seems to rarely pop up. They also played the Whiskey around that time (but after the Troub gig) in place of Taj's band for some reason.
I look at Poco and the Burritos and the first real working-touring country-rock bands, self contained and with top notch debut albums under their belt.

The International Band hardly played a gig in their country-rock line-up (Herb, it was Bob Buchannan on guitar with the ISB, an ex-New Christy Minstrel) ... the Byrds were definately the other great country-rock band, the 1968-72 versions of course.
The Beau Brummels '68 album is a country-rock milestone, I'd put it up there with the other albums of '68; and their guitarist Ron Elliot (no, not the steel player we know and love) played an important role in the Everly Brothers' Roots LP from 1968, which for me is an important bridge for country-rock and what I like to think of as psyche-country which Gene Clark and the Byrds were the main innovators of, a blend of west coast psyche-pop, sunshine pop, folk-rock and strong country-elements... a truly West Coast synthesis.

The Roots LP is a total mind melt, I worship the Everly's, and it's a shame that as Warner Brothers embraced country-rock and West Coast singer-songwriters in the 1970-73 period, the brothers left the label at the end of 1970.
They went to RCA and cut two great records before splitting, but for the most part RCA had no idea of what to do with their country-rock roster (Michael Nesmith, Swampwater, Rio Grande, and the Pure Prairie League) ... they had Elvis albums to market I guess.

Herb made a real interesting point, Michael Martin Murphey and (Forumite) Boomer Castleman's band The Texas Two.
To quote Herb, "They had John McEuen playing banjo and John London on bass. This was 1966."

I'm not sure whether it was all of them, or the initial duo of Boomer and Murph that recorded with the Buckaroos in '66, but record they did. So far it looks as if those tapes were destroyed in a fire, but I remain hopeful that one day they will surface.
They also worked with Early Scruggs in '69, before Earl decided that his full band would be his sons, and a country-rock band named Tex came out in '70, with the young Mr. Steiner on steel. They recorded as well, maybe one day that material will see the light of day.

The fantastic Hearts & Flowers also played a decent role in the local scene, they helped bridge the gap between West Coast country and country-rock, although they didn't quite make the step into country-rock, members like Larry Murray and Bernie Leadon certainly did.

Others I can think of include between 68-69 include Ricky Nelson, Johnny Darrell, John Stewart, the Corvettes, the Dillards, Dillard & Clark, Longbranch Pennywhistle, the Gosdins, and that's not even cracking Northern California, other states or even countries (eg: Country Fever formed in '68 in the UK).

But if you look as far back as 1966, rockers like Jerry Lee Lewis, Ricky Nelson, Johnny Cash, Marvin Rainwater, the Everly Brothers, Conway Twitty, etc were all trying country in one form or another, of course most of them had started as country performers in the first place.

Back to the main topic:

In 1966 Chris Hillman was involved with recording projects that mixed country, pop, and folk with the Byrds, the Gosdin Brothers, Clarence White and Doug Dillard of the Dillards.

He also played on some of the Dillard & Clark material as a guest, was the first to bring Gram Parsons and Clarence White to the attention of the Byrds, not to mention helping the early Buffalo Springflield get some gigs.

In a 1965 Byrds interview Chris noted his fave performers at the time were Buck Owens and John Lee Hooker.

I look at Chris as one of the main guys, without him as catalyst, a lot of things just wouldn't have happened, not too mention his writing, hell; the Byrds' 'Time Between' from a 1966 session and issued in '67 is pretty much the first country-rock song that was actually released.

I couldn't disagree more about Phil Baugh, Buck, Merle and Wynn Stewart being a form of country-rock, those guys were making some of the greatest country records ever with a real feel for the live honky-tonk sound and studio innovation born of an industry base that was far broader than any other from that period. (think about it, the West Coast had R&B, folk, blues, Bluegrass, country, pop, surf, girl-groups, rockabilly, doo wop, old timey, garage punk, folk-rock, blues-rock, psyche-canyon rock, baroque-pop, commercial folk, jazz, TV big bands, sunshine pop and so much more between 1958 and 1968).
I find a lot of amazing studio arrangements and ideas on the Owens and Haggard records between 1966-68 that left Nashville for dead.

If you notice fuzz guitar and different production ideas in Buck's sound in the late 60s, I think Don Rich had a lot to do with that. He had the potential to move out on his own as a progressive country artist, he was a big fan of the Band and had some ties with some very obscure country-rock bands in the early 1970s.

Also, I might note that Dyaln might have recorded in Nashville in 1966, but the core of that band was Charlie McCcoys Escorts, an R&B outfit which cut R&B records for Cadence and Monument, but whose members had to play country sessions to survive in Nashville.
'Blonde On Blonde' is essentially a wonderful synthesis of Dylan's folk-rock sound with blues and white R&B around Dylan's ragged, but oh-so-right arrangements.
Don't get me wrong, records like Dylan's John Wesley Harding, Ian & Sylvia's Nashville and the Beau Brummels' Bradley's Barn are fantastic records cut in "Music City" with killer backing.