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 The OTHER Robert Randolph question (Page 1)
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| Author | Topic: The OTHER Robert Randolph question |
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Mike Perlowin Member From: Los Angeles CA |
posted 17 February 2004 11:34 PM
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How many of us can play like him? What are you gonna do when somebody hires you because they want his sound and they figure you play the same instrument, so you can do what he does? I think we all need to start learning at least in part, how to play like that. |
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Billy Wilson Member From: El Cerrito, California, USA |
posted 18 February 2004 12:41 AM
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What are you gonna do when somebody hires you? Grab my shi(r)t and go. BW |
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Travis Bernhardt Member From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada |
posted 18 February 2004 12:55 AM
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Agreed. I recently transcribed a Chuck Campbell run. I have no idea how he's playing it. Well, I figured out a way to play it--but it's very tricky, and I'm not sure there isn't an easier way (I also found a cheap way to play it in C6 with lots of slides--which sounds really different--and which I posted in the tab section, if you're curious). It might be easier with his tuning, but it's basically a straight walk down the scale in the Dorian mode--with a couple of odd notes thrown in. The E9 tuning should be able to handle it. My point is, it's freakin' hard! People say it's "just minor pentatonic licks." Well, fine. That's easy enough to say... I plan to transcribe some of the licks off Robert Randolph's "Unclassified" CD some time soon. Also, there's some good stuff on the "Sacred Steel" DVD that I might try to copy (at least I'll be able to get an idea of the bar movement involved). I want to have something to play during blues, rock or funk songs that doesn't just sound like bottleneck slide guitar (w/ apologies to Sonny Landreth -Travis |
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Travis Bernhardt Member From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada |
posted 18 February 2004 01:01 AM
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Oh yeah, I also want to add that if anyone were to put out a course called "Sacred Steel style playing for E9," especially with material on Chuck Campbell/Robert Randolph style fast licks, I'll bet it would sell like hotcakes. Or a course that covered the Sacred Steel tuning in general, for that matter. Chuck, are you out there? Dan Tyack? Anyone? -Travis |
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Bob Hoffnar Member From: Brooklyn, NY |
posted 18 February 2004 07:15 AM
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The left hand blocking is a big part of the sound and very different than what I am used to. I can't play like Robert to save my life but then again I can't play like Buddy either. Bob |
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Jerry Roller Member From: Van Buren, Arkansas USA |
posted 18 February 2004 07:21 AM
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I bet'cha Joe Wright could show you how it's done. Joe can rock with the best then bring tears on the next song. Maybe Joe will put out some teaching material on it. Jerry |
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Jim Cohen Member From: Philadelphia, PA |
posted 18 February 2004 08:20 AM
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I'd love to see Dan Tyack put something out. He's been getting deep into this style and could help the rest of us who want to get oriented to it. Whaddayasay, Dan?? |
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Donny Hinson Member From: Balto., Md. U.S.A. |
posted 18 February 2004 09:00 AM
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I haven't heard any of his sacred steel playing, I've only heard his rock stuff. The rock-style steel playing is not that big challenge for me, as my old band did lots of songs like La Grange and Cocaine for the younger set. I'm not minimizing or belittling what he does, but if you have the basic steel-playing skills down, all you need is a good fuzz, and the ability to stop playing (or thinking) like a traditional pedal steel player. |
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BobG Member From: Holmdel, NJ |
posted 18 February 2004 09:16 AM
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If you watch Robert up close the first thing you notice is "alot of fast bar movement"...and I also think he uses a lap steel bar..the one with the finger groove on top. ------------------ |
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Rick Schmidt Member From: Carlsbad, CA. USA |
posted 18 February 2004 09:59 AM
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It seems to me that alot of the SS style has roots in copying gospel singing. RR took that and added his Stevie Ray Vaughn influences. I have yet to have anybody on any gigs ask me to play like RR, but I hope the day comes. That to me will speak volumes. |
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Jesse Pearson Member From: San Diego , CA |
posted 18 February 2004 10:07 AM
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Sorry, no way is RR playing SRV licks, Duan Allman maybe. RR' rock stuff is blues rock, big deal. Think like a guitar player who is into the minor pentonic and it's inversions and your there. |
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Bob Hoffnar Member From: Brooklyn, NY |
posted 18 February 2004 11:49 AM
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You guys that think its easy are not listening close enough. There are some very different techniques happening. Its like when rock guitarists think they can play that simple country stuff. They think they can but they can't. For you guys that think any bozo can play like Robert make sure you don't get on stage with him. He will eat your lunch. Bob |
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Rick Schmidt Member From: Carlsbad, CA. USA |
posted 18 February 2004 12:20 PM
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Bob...I know what youre saying about the typical rock player trying unsuccessfully to play legit country, but I also think youre painting with a pretty broad brush at the expense of some of our lunches. Over the years I've known many musicians that can easily play ANY style with authority and honesty. I'm not impressed either when I hear somebody hit the button on a distortion pedal and use A&B pedal cliches or faux bottleneck licks. I know RR isn't doing anything as dumb as that, but as a guitarist for 40 years and a steeler for almost 30, I'm not gonna deify his bag just yet. One of the ways I learned to play steel was to copy the guitar licks note for note that I learned from my six string heroes in my formative years. Albert-Freddie-BB...Wes, John Mclaughlin, Jimi etc. I'm sure I'm not the only one besides RR that has done that. |
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Bob Smith Member From: Allentown, New Jersey, USA |
posted 18 February 2004 12:21 PM
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Bob H. I agree with every word you said especially the last sentence. I can assure you theres no steel players around these parts, that has those kinda chops in his bag of tricks. bob |
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Jesse Pearson Member From: San Diego , CA |
posted 18 February 2004 01:20 PM
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I listened to him, if it was great I'd be the first to say so. The style he is playing is the same thing many of us guitar players cut our teeth on, so what? Guitar players are better educated in different styles now than ever before, thanks to all the great teaching methods out. Guys I know who wail on guitar are surprised it's a steel they were listening to, and they go so what. RR could probably do the same gig on guitar and be just as popular, it's the same blues rock approach he uses on steel. When I hear steel players talk about RR' bag of tricks I gotta laugh and wonder what the heck are you talking about, you mean his guitar bag of tricks? It must be a steel thing, steel players haven't traditionally played like a blues rock guitar player and now you have someone on the same playing field as guitar after all these years and he's having some success. Is this what your grabbing on too? RR's song written and soloing is the same old thing as blues rock jamming, but done on a steel. Just cause the guy is playing fast doesn't give him the brass ring, after the 3rd song he already shot his wade sounds like to me. If you had a couple of more guys doing the same thing on steel and making it, I doubt you'd be so into it and it's gonna happen cause he ain't doing nothing that hasn't already be done on regular guitar note wise. You want to sound like RR, get a Allma Bros tab book and transpose the same Duan Allman licks onto you steel, then you'll sound real close if you don't phrase very much and just play real fast. That's not a bag of tricks bud. The fact is, that in the style he is currently playing, the jam rock stuff, there are any number of famous guitar players out there who can eat RR for lunch. Steel guitar is capable of many things that a guitar can't touch, I just don't hear RR going there yet. |
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Don Walters Member From: Regina, SK, Canada |
posted 18 February 2004 02:37 PM
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quote: Perhaps it's this |
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Joey Ace Sysop From: Southern Ontario, Canada |
posted 18 February 2004 02:43 PM
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A big part of the style is picking the bar up, then placing it down to get a note. This gives a sound similar to a standard guitar hammering on. Most of us traditional Steelers have been taught not to lift the bar. |
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Bobby Lee Sysop From: Cloverdale, North California, USA |
posted 18 February 2004 03:01 PM
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Jesse, if it's so easy, why don't blues/rock bands routinely have steel players in them? Why is Robert Randolph the first pedal steel player to get the spotlight in a funk band? Maybe it's old hat to you, but to rock audiences it's a big deal. At almost every rock gig I play with Open Hearts, people come up and say "I didn't know you could do that on a pedal steel". Back to Mike's original question... I was playing it a rootsy country-rock band (Laughing Gravy) when the Sacred Steel sound surfaced. The band immediately asked me to put some SS-style licks into all of their gospel-flavored tunes. It was a lot of fun to step into a different style for a few songs. Like many genres, it's easy to dabble in but hard to master. Any lead guitarist with a B-bender can sound sort of country, but it takes some real woodshedding to become a country lead guitarist. ------------------ |
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Bob Smith Member From: Allentown, New Jersey, USA |
posted 18 February 2004 03:31 PM
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Hey there Jesse, I have to laugh also when someone has misinterpreted a post here, Go back and read if you dont know what I meant by " bag of tricks". Hey bud, "this aint no disco here" bob |
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David Doggett Member From: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA |
posted 18 February 2004 04:43 PM
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Jesse and some others who complain RR is just playing blues-rock guitar licks are simply not listening. Sure, it's the same style, but mixed in with the fast picked runs is a lot of sliding and shaking that 6-stringers can't do (the amount depending on which RR track you hear). And because of the extra strings, pedals and levers, the SS guys are playing things a bottle-neck 6-stringer can't do. The fact is that the better sacred steelers like Campbell and Randolph do this so well and seamlessly, that, yes it does sound very much like standard blues-rock-gospel guitar. Because that's what they want at the moment. I guess one could ask why they don't just play a 6-string; but that makes as much sense as asking why 6-stringers don't play a pedal steel. There are things you can do on each instrument that you can't do on the other - to each his own. In the services and more gospel type numbers there is much more of the sliding and voice-like single string work that can't be done on a 6-string. That's why these guys play pedal steel guitars, and why their listeners love it. The fact that they can also turn around and play lightening fast guitar licks without much sliding is to their credit. They have reached a very high level of versatility. Why do some people feel required to criticize them for that? It's like criticizing 6-stringers for bending strings and using whammy bars to try to sound like steel guitars. As to how good these guys are, I will defer to Tommy White and Paul Franklin, Jr., both of whom have given high praise to sacred steeler skills in other threads. And with all due respect to Dan Tyack, a couple of years ago Bob Stone got a pack of sacred steelers to gather for a show at the Sedgewick Theater in Philly. Dan and Jim Cohen got up on stage with them with their traditional double-necks. One of the teenagers, whose name I forget, lit into a lead that left Dan and Jim in the dust. Dan quit playing and stood up to look over the kids shoulder to see what the heck he was doing. Sure anyone can woodshed and learn to play like that (okay, not anyone, but any top steeler). So far very few, if any, steelers outside of the sacred steel tradition do. I say bring it on. It's all good.
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Ron Sodos Member From: Albuquerque, New Mexico, USA |
posted 18 February 2004 04:53 PM
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He sounds out of tune on alot of his stuff to me. [This message was edited by Ron Sodos on 18 February 2004 at 04:53 PM.] |
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Donny Hinson Member From: Balto., Md. U.S.A. |
posted 18 February 2004 05:39 PM
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Geeze guys, now we're all attacking each other!  Lighten up, please. Believe it or not...there's some fantastic straight guitar players out there who don't idolize Jimi Hendrix, Eric Clapton, or Stevie Ray Vaughn.
quote: Hmm...seems sort of obvious to me. And if I may offer my own hypothesis...could it be it's because most pedal steelers don't appreciate or care for that type of music? |
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David Doggett Member From: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA |
posted 18 February 2004 05:42 PM
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Ron, that's the wildness a lot of people love. Some people hate that "off key, whiney, twangy country music." I forgive such people because I realize they are just culturally deprived.  |
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C Dixon Member From: Duluth, GA USA |
posted 18 February 2004 05:42 PM
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Many years ago on the old Friday nite Opry broadcast from the National Life and Accident Insurance bldg, Tompaul and the Glazer bros were practicing their song. Tompaul walked over to the steel player who was backing him and said, "No I don't want you to play that, I want you to do it just like Lloyd Green did it on the record." The player looked Paul in the eye and said, I am not Lloyd Green I am .........., if you want his type playing hire him!" Paul said no more. They went on and did the show and that steel player did a break that was typically HIM! The audience clapped half way thru the break! Incidently, that player is one of the most successful and greatest PSG players of all time. MOST all of you have seen him many times I am sure. And NO, it was NOT Buddy Emmons, carl |
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Larry Lorows Member From: Cortland, NY, USA |
posted 18 February 2004 06:02 PM
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I have to agree with Mike Perloin totally, about Robert Randolf. He doesn't sound like he's backing up Ray Price which is the style that we all love, but he sure can play the blues stuff. My wife is used to hearing me play Misty or Fly Me to the Moon, but the other night I had my steel on one of my 6 string guitar effects, playing along with Eric Clapton. She popped in and said, "That sure does good, Hon." I don't mind telling you that surprised the heck out of me. All I'm trying to say is, maybe you guys should try it. Larry ------------------ |
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David Yannuzzi Member From: New City, New York, USA |
posted 18 February 2004 06:49 PM
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He uses a stevens bar that dobro players usually use |
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Al Marcus Member From: Cedar Springs,MI USA |
posted 18 February 2004 06:57 PM
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Carl - Jimmy Day?.........al  All the older players used to lift up the bar a lot and slap it down,and also mute with the bar hand. ------------------ |
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Jesse Pearson Member From: San Diego , CA |
posted 18 February 2004 07:05 PM
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Blues rock bands don't use Pedal steels playing minor pentatonic runs because a guitar can do it better and cheaper. We can play alot of different approaches from different instruments on a steel if you work at it. I can do what a B bender does on a G string bend on a guitar. What RR is doing isn't easy to do on steel, it's hard. I know people who have hung out with Robert and he's a really nice guy and a hard working musician. I'm glad his great success is getting people interested in steel. I'm not a pedal steel player and I'm starting my 3rd year on cheapo Magnatones teaching myself thru books. RR' band might be playing modal funk vamps but he's playing blues rock over the top of it. That's why as a student I'm not looking into studying him and never will if he doesn't get beyond this. I study bop on steel cause I know it, but I can't sit thru more than a set of live bebop any more. The guy is a good front man and half the people who hear him live probably don't know what instrument he's playing. I don't care for his jam band sound, maybe thats half of it. I'm looking at it as a long time guitar player and a student on steel. I have learned that you can play almost anything on steel if you work on it. |
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Lyle Bradford Member From: Gilbert WV USA |
posted 18 February 2004 07:29 PM
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Lets not forget Paul Franklin! He can do it with the best of them! |
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Jack Dougherty Member From: Spring Hill, Florida, USA |
posted 18 February 2004 07:44 PM
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WOHAAA!!!!!!!!!! I never met RR. But he seems to be getting a lot of press. Let us not forget who brought us all to the dance. OK you found somebody who does some "special things" on the steel. I know at least 50 more who can too. I bet you all know some too. So give RR his due if you want. But I'm not ready to mint any coins with his face on it . YET!! ------------------ |
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Mike Perlowin Member From: Los Angeles CA |
posted 18 February 2004 08:07 PM
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quote: My former one did. The "gimmick" of the band, of you can call it that, was that it had 2 lead players, one on guitar and one on steel and we traded off each other. This was not a country rock band. It was a Hendrix-Zeppelin inspired blues based hard rock band, and more often than not, I played with distortion. |
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Bowie Martin Member From: Wilson, NC USA 27896 |
posted 19 February 2004 05:50 PM
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Hey, I love Ray Price and all the great country, and my favorite steelers are Lloyd, and Buddy, Jeff Newman, and the other greats; but even at my age I sure did enjoy listening to what RR is doing...I think it is great...and what he is doing to publicize the instrument is wonderful friends...whether you like it or not. |
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Jesse Pearson Member From: San Diego , CA |
posted 19 February 2004 08:17 PM
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I remember reading a past post by a steel player who watched what Robert was doing up close and he stated that he was basically playing a pedal steel like a non pedal when he's standing up. Can anyone verify this? |
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Dan Tyack Member From: Seattle, WA USA |
posted 19 February 2004 08:29 PM
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Jesse said: quote: I have a couple of problems with this.. actually more than a couple.. First is that great blues and rock guitar players don't just play 'minor pentatonic runs'. Yeah it's easy for guitar players to learn these scales, and then play stuff that sounds kind of bluesy. But that's not what the greats play. If that's what it sounds like to you, then you need to go back and listen to what they are actually playing. Sure some of the notes that they choose to use come from the minor pentatonic scale, but the same could be said for country music and major scales. I guess I could be a great country guitar player if I just learned how to play major scales really fast.... The second is that any really good blues player I know who understands the steel knows that the pedal steel is the ultimate blues and rock and role lead instrument. The things that are really hard on guitar with blues and rock and roll (bending precisely, making the line sing like Aretha Franklin) lay a lot easier on the steel.
In answer to some questions posted previously, I do have most of a video planned out, but I just need some time to get it together. I am too busy playing right now to spend time on it, but it will come after I am finished with a gospel album I am working on now. For those of you guys who are focusing on the fast licks, that's really not what this Sacred Steel style is all about, and playing them will not get you any work. What kills people is the emotion and energy in the style. Check out this little clip from a live Campbell Brothers show. http://campbellbrothers.com/songs/Campbell%20Brothers%20-%2004%20-%20Walk%20With%20Me.mp3 ------------------ |
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Dan Tyack Member From: Seattle, WA USA |
posted 19 February 2004 08:38 PM
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David: That young steel player who kicked my a*&^%$ in Philly was Marcus Randolph, Robert's cousin, who plays drums for Robert. And yes, there is a reason, why Robert doesn't have him play double steels in the show.... ------------------ |
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Dan Tyack Member From: Seattle, WA USA |
posted 19 February 2004 10:40 PM
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oops, double posted.. [This message was edited by Dan Tyack on 19 February 2004 at 10:49 PM.] |
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Terry Wendt Member From: Nashville, TN, USA |
posted 19 February 2004 10:57 PM
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I'M READY! I want to play it all!!! LET's Jam Boys!!! RR, meet me tomorrow night down on Broadway in Nashville, and we'll "cut heads" - Blues and Rock - NONSTOP from 10PM til @ 2nd Fiddle I'll bring the distortion----------- ...and my antique 2 pedal Red-Bud I'm ready to start learnin' ------------------ and appearing regularly...aLotOfSpace.com |
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Jesse Pearson Member From: San Diego , CA |
posted 19 February 2004 11:12 PM
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Dan, all I can say is look in the tab section under my name. I have a degree in music and years of playing cover tunes on guitar from alot of different artists, Top 40 to blues rock, jazz blues, swing blues, jump blues, modal funk blues, you name it. Hendrix, Johnny Winter, Robben Ford, Charlie Parker (guitar and alto sax) SRV, and alot of guys you never heard of. I can play any artist note for note I want to and then tell you what there approaches are on top of it. The thing that is really blowin my mind is RR isn't even playing pedal steel, he plays it like a non pedal live. Steel players who have seen him up close have stated this here on the forum. The pedal steel is not the ultimate Rock and blues machine and never will be. And I beg to differ with you, but the great blues guys pretty much play the major and minor pent/blues scales and not much more. Robert doesn't even go there? You obviously are not a guitar player. And here's another one, most really good blues guitar players don't know nothing about steel guitar. Why, cause they don't give a rats ass about an instrument they never jam with, what are you thinking? Yea, I live in Southern Cal, but I moved here from Texas. I'm done getting you guys upset about RR, I've never heard his Sacred Steel stuff, only his jam band stuff. I think I've been pretty clear that that's the only aspect of his playing that I've been commenting on.. RR belongs with us Hawaiian steel guitar players anyhow cause he's playing basically in a non pedal style when he plays live. [This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 20 February 2004 at 06:11 PM.] |
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Mike Perlowin Member From: Los Angeles CA |
posted 20 February 2004 01:29 AM
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quote: I'm not sure I agree 100%, but the steel is certainly extremely well suited for playing rock. Not many of us do it, but those of us who do can tell you it works great as a rock and blues instrument. Of course you can't turn on a fuzz box and play the way to survive. Playing rock requires a different way of thinking about the instrument. I believe that the U-12 tuning, even if one never touches the B6 pedals, is best suited for playing rock. I drop my low B string to A on the A pedal. I don't get into that register often, but when I do, (usually at the end of a ride), its very effective. |
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CrowBear Schmitt Member From: Ariege, - PairO'knees, - France |
posted 20 February 2004 01:49 AM
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Dan T Thanx for the link  i don't really care what scales those are i just get the feeling that everything's gonna be allright ! |
Bobby Lee - email: This topic is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 All times are Pacific (US) | next newest topic | next oldest topic |
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