Myself, I on the E9 I'll grab the 9 string as a dominant 7th in the bottom and use a slant on strings 5 and 6, with and without the A pedal.

For me this was originally inspired by a riff in the bridge section of TB's Recording of Bud's Bounce and I just took it from there and crawled.

I do it now and then in a number of other situations. With no C6 neck to mess with a man has to adapt and improvise.

Like I said, curious....

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Dave Grafe - email: dg@pdxaudio.com
Production
Pickin', etc.

1978 ShoBud Pro I E9, Randall Steel Man 500, 1963 Precision Bass, 1954 Gibson LGO, 1897 Washburn Hawaiian Steel Conversion

[This message was edited by Dave Grafe on 15 June 2005 at 10:28 PM.]

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Klaus Caprani

MCI RangeXpander S-10 3x4
www.klauscaprani.com

Ron

[This message was edited by Ronald Steenwijk on 16 June 2005 at 12:32 AM.]

Like, in C6th, fret a G note on the 15th fret of the 6th string, a B note on the 16th fret of the 5th string, and a D on the 17th fret of the 4th string for a G major chord - you can lower the 3rd string for a G7. Then change the pitch of the notes by moving the angle of the bar, and going across the strings, not just up and down – of course, you combine it with slides too. Control is hard, but that's what practice is for?

Backward slants seem less useful to me, because the C6th tuning is fairly close in its voicings to begin with and slanting the bar backwards tends to give you diatonic scales at best*, which I find easier to get by moving the bar unless you want a special effect. I mostly use 1 1/4" and 1 3/8" acrylic bars.

I also slant the bar when sitting in on someone else's guitar and the knee levers are not where I want them, or they don't exist at all, like on a Maverick. I was playing a guitar like that at ISGC one day and Al Petty walked past and said "Herb, you're showing your age."

Bear in mind that I started on non-pedal steel where slant bar technique is not only common, but required. My first three pedal steels didn't have knee levers, and I only got my first lever in 1968 on a Sho-Bud.

When I'm playing non-pedal steel, like I have for the last 2-3 months with the Hank Williams play, I slant the bar approximately 30% of the time.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

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Howard, 'Les Paul Recording, Zum S12U, Vegas 400, Boss ME-5, Boss DM-3, DD-3, Sierra Session D-10
http://www.Charmedmusic.com

Dave, TB's recording of "Bud's Bounce" is why I do this at all. (Ah, yes... 1963...)

[This message was edited by Ray Minich on 16 June 2005 at 06:38 AM.]

Just kidding, Bobbe...

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MSA Classic 12, Peavey Delta Blues, Proco Rat, Robert Randolph - Shubb bars

Lloyd's intonation is always perfect.
**** ******, OTOH, is probably a good example of why NOT to use slants. He's always had intonation problems.

I guess it's similar to playing stoned; perhaps some of you only THINK it sounds good...

Oh, and Together Again and Bud's Bounce w/out slants?
No prob.

[This message was edited by Marty Pollard on 16 June 2005 at 07:41 AM.]

Yes, I use bar slants for the same reason that Buddy has mentioned several times: it ISN'T PERFECT and that little bit of dissonance or bar buzz can add a lot of life to a phrase. Particularly the move that preceded the F lever -- a backward slant on E9 raising 8 1/2 step while playing 6 and 5. It's impossible to get all three notes perfect, but it sounds really cool, IMHO.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

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Whitney Single 12 8FL & 5 KN,keyless, dual changers Extended C6th, Webb Amp, Line6 PodXT, Goodrich Curly Chalker Volume Pedal, Match Bro, BJS Bar..I was keyless....when keyless wasn't cool....

[This message was edited by George Redmon on 16 June 2005 at 08:56 AM.]

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Whitney Single 12 8FL & 5 KN,keyless, dual changers Extended C6th, Webb Amp, Line6 PodXT, Goodrich Curly Chalker Volume Pedal, Match Bro, BJS Bar..I was keyless....when keyless wasn't cool....

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"if you do you're a dumba$$" or "if you can't do it perfectly you shouldn't do it at all".

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that little bit of dissonance or bar buzz can add a lot of life to a phrase.

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It's impossible to get all three notes perfect, but it sounds really cool, IMHO.

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That kind of judgmental nonsense has run many wonderful people away from this forum.

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(sorry, had to say it)

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It is interesting that only in the minds of provincial western musicians is the concept of every note being precisely "in tune" to some mythical set of perfect intervals a condition for defining musicality.

Many cultures around the world have scales with more than twelve "notes" per octave, some don't even recognize pure tone "notes" as being musical at all but desire buzzers and other resonators to turn a simple vibration into a complex waveform which they find pleasing, even though its components are most definitely not "in tune" by anglo-european standards.

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Marty, are you by chance familiar with the concept of the "blue" note?

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For your information Dave, the tones you're referring to are nothing more than the flatted third and flatted seventh, not the flat flatted third or flat flatted seventh. Yes Dave, I most certainly DO know what I'm talking about.

If you play guitar in western music (as opposed to eastern traditions) you may bend a note from the second to the minor third or from the minor third to the natural third and yes, there are an infinite number of 'microtones' in that movement.

However, if you never arrive at your destination note and if you let that poorly intoned note ring against the other instruments, it's BAD. It just is.

So, am I to surmise that you play music in the eastern tradition?
If so, congratulations; I'm sure it's quite challenging and I hope to learn more about it someday.

In the meantime I'm going to continue playing music in the European tradition which actually DOES care about intonation (and not randomly BTW; it's a physics thing) and in which unresolved bends and microtones are unacceptable.

Yep, if you aren't using slants and reverses, you are only playing half the guitar.
There is an awful lot of music you are not playing. Ever see Jimmy Day play? Lloyd Green Play? Or any great player for that matter,
Again b0b, yep!

By the way guys,California's own Bobby Black came by today and we played my 10 string "Super Slide" for over an hour, both of us pulling it away from the other one, and yes, Bobby is a great "Slants and Reverses" kinda' player.
Yep,,,,, Bobby Black, what a great guy, great player and great friend to all steel players.

[This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 16 June 2005 at 07:16 PM.]

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unresolved bends and microtones are unacceptable.

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It works well in lead blues guitar depending on where you go after it, IMO. I mean how many people do you ever hear cry in tune?

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-johnson

It's true -- for me, anyway, without forward and reverse slants, you're using half of your guitar -- maybe less. An exciting thought for those who don't use slants and want to broaden their horizons.

Quote: "... the tones you're referring to are nothing more than the flatted third and flatted seventh, not the flat flatted third or flat flatted seventh."

I flat out disagree that the so-called "blue notes" should always be resolved precisely to a just- or equal-tempered western chromatic note. I have been playing blues guitar since the late 60s - no matter what new things I do, I still basically view myself as a blues guitar player. I've listened to and played a lot of blues guitar. Listen to Muddy Waters, Magic Sam, Otis Rush, Earl Hooker, Little Walter, Buddy Guy, Gatemouth Brown, Albert/B.B./Freddy King, or any of the other blues masters, and you will hear them mess around a lot between the minor and major 3rd, the flat 5th and the 5th, and the 6th and the flat 7th a lot. They resolve where they bloody well please, thank you. Quite honestly, the different ways a blues player resolves blue notes is part of that player's signature.

Sometimes they want full resolution and hit it straight on the chromatic note. Other times, they want tension, and resolve away from it. Yes, it's a dangerous technique in the hands of a hack. That's what separates the masters from the wannabees - knowing exactly what works when and how to tame it.

Another issue in resolving away from a note is what to play with it. If the accompaniment is spare and stays out of the way, there will be no beats, and it can sound great. Ever wonder why the great blues bands have an accompaniment style that paves a wide highway around which the soloist can wander? When I hear a blues band where every sonic space is filled and soloists resolve every single note to a western chromatic, I say 'inexperienced'.

Mike Sweeney www.freewebs.com/steelguitarmusic/

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Mike Sweeney

[This message was edited by Mike Sweeney on 16 June 2005 at 10:47 PM.]

When you say, "...you will hear them mess around a lot between the minor and major 3rd, the flat 5th and the 5th, and the 6th and the flat 7th a lot", that's pretty obvious. At root, what I believe is happening is that when a note is slurred in a particular direction, our ears/brains fill in the blanks just like our eyes do with visuals. Essentially, we 'resolve' the implied notes ourselves as listeners.

The exception is what proves the rule.

But we may be a cross purposes; I'm talking about unacceptable intonation problems in MOST of the bar slants I hear, not about blue 3rds and 7ths.

[This message was edited by Marty Pollard on 16 June 2005 at 10:56 PM.]

Other than that, I guess we're in agreement, eh? Your last paragraph states that if it's not done RIGHT, it sux (which sounds like badmouthing to me). Welcome to the club.

And you're right, I don't want to put in the time to learn to do something I can already do in a more efficient and pleasant manner. I suppose I could learn to play lefthanded but why would I?

Also please enlighten me. What are those mysterious chords or voicings you're getting with these slants? sus2? sus4? dim? aug? 6? 7? Maj7? min? 9s? 11s? 13s?
Heck, I get all those with my standard E9 3x4!

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on the E9 I'll grab the 9 string as a dominant 7th in the bottom and use a slant on strings 5 and 6, with and without the A pedal

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