I'm simply sharing what is considered by some folks to be valuable information - at least some have considered it valuable enough to spend their lives studying it and making it available to the rest of us.

As Mr. Mudgett has attempted to point out, afro-american musicians introduced string stretching and - get a load of this - old bottle necks slid on the strings between the frets - to reach the notes that they heard growing up surrounded with music from a much older tradition. These were originally called "blue notes" and horn players have always been able to go there with relative ease, even though they are ostensibly playing an instrument designed for european scales.

The flat 5 and flat 7 that you mention are often called "blue notes" nowadays but they were actually introduced sometime later in an attempt to emulate this music on the piano. If you go back and read the words of those who did so you will find that it was considered a great conundrum at the time, how to play "blues" on a piano, in fact some folks steadfastly maintained that you could never play the blues on a piano at all, because, in a manner of speaking, it was TOO RIGIDLY TUNED. But that was then, and this is....

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on the E9 I'll grab the 9 string as a dominant 7th in the bottom and use a slant on strings 5 and 6

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And yes, as a matter of fact, I do occasionally play Middle Eastern and South Asian music, also jazz, blues, mambos, bossa, calypso, hilife, etc. but that's another thread.

Peace

dg

[This message was edited by Dave Grafe on 17 June 2005 at 12:21 AM.]

What a great thread. A lot of fine experience "talking" in it. Very motivating as far as doing more with slants. Hey, it was good enough for Winnie Winston's "bible", DeWitt Scott's "Anthology of Pedal Steel Guitar", not to mention all the great players that use it effectively. I even checked out Marty's website in the process and he sounds wonderful with no slants. To each his own. I've been playing Rock and Blues guitar for 40 years and totally agree with the fact that it's the "crying" pitches that give Blues it's character and not the arriving at perfect intonations.

Enough of my 2 cents. But again, thanks,

Thanks a lot for opening my eyes for this feature on steel.
You all may conceive me as a little bit dense, but it turns out that I actually never really knew what the bullet-nose on my bar was really for. I always thought that it was there for mere ergonomics.
Ofcourse I've seen various steelplayers use the bullet nose to play "fretted" notes combined with open strings, but I wasn't even considering that nose to have anything to do with bar-slants.
I just discovered that the correct placement of the bullet-nose will allow me to change the major on 4-5-6 to an almost perfect minor with a slant and the bullet positioned on strings 4-5.
Until now I would have to leave out 5, as it would be heavily flat.

Thanks guys. Apparantly I can still consider myself a newbie

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Klaus Caprani

MCI RangeXpander S-10 3x4
www.klauscaprani.com

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Listen to… any of the… blues masters, and you will hear them mess around a lot between the minor and major 3rd, the flat 5th and the 5th, and the 6th and the flat 7th a lot. They resolve where they bloody well please, thank you. Quite honestly, the different ways a blues player resolves blue notes is part of that player's signature.
Sometimes they want full resolution and hit it straight on the chromatic note. Other times, they want tension, and resolve away from it. Yes, it's a dangerous technique in the hands of a hack. That's what separates the masters from the wannabees - knowing exactly what works when and how to tame it.

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The exception is what proves the rule.

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Dave Mudgett also says:

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Another issue in resolving away from a note is what to play with it. If the accompaniment is spare and stays out of the way, there will be no beats, and it can sound great. Ever wonder why the great blues bands have an accompaniment style that paves a wide highway around which the soloist can wander? When I hear a blues band where every sonic space is filled and soloists resolve every single note to a western chromatic, I say 'inexperienced.' As mainstream steel moves into other styles like blues, this tradition will move with it. I suppose some will hate it, that goes with the turf, I guess.

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Indian music has more microtones than Westerners have ever been able to count – researchers keep trying to make up categories to anally quantify the notes, when if you simply ask the musicians, they’ll tell you that the microtones vary according to the time of day, the weather, the planting season, etc; most importantly, they vary according to the player’s style. As Mudgett said: “That's what separates the masters from the wannabees.” The backing for Indian ragas is also very sparse tonally, usually just tablas and sometimes a drone instrument providing roots and fifths.

When Gershwin and other Western composers for Broadway and the burgeoning film industry began trying to adapt “blue” notes for orchestration, they were faced with the dilemma explained by Mr. Pollard – a whole orchestra simultaneously squirting out “blue” notes according to each individual’s “feelings” sounded pretty awful, at least until the invention of “free jazz.” Hence, the standardization of the flatted 3rd, 5th and 7th as the only safe blue notes.

Likewise, when the Indian film industry (“Bollywood”) began using scores that combined Western-style orchestration with Indian instruments, the players had to be re-educated to stick to the simplest, non-microtonal scales available. Ravi Shankar used to be a ferocious young sitarist in the early 60’s but when he assumed the mantle of “India’s Ambassador to the West” he made a conscious decision to stick to simple, happy, and for the most part non-microtonal music that wouldn’t offend the ears of the uneducated barbarians.

Have you ever noticed how many country singers try to end their songs with a little flurry of what they consider to be “blue” notes? And how lame it sounds, if you’ve heard real blues? The reason is that they have learned that b3’s, b5’s and b7’s are the only notes that they are allowed to use. At least to this point, busy arrangements and full Western orchestration seem to be incompatible with microtonal music. Neither is “right” or “wrong.”

A point to consider: as music production becomes theoretically more and more perfect due to accurate synthesizers, accurate intonation and, particularly, clean electronic amplification and recording equipment, it has become more and more necessary to reintroduce tube distortion and electronic “chorus” detuning in order to make the music sound “good.” Is this clamoring for imperfection learned, or innate?

I don't have time.

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Also note that your argument centers around 'simple' music. I guess Indian ragas are just the blues further dumbed down from your description.

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WOOHAAA!!!!!! Do you really mean this or am I missing some fine ironic point? (I sure hope it's just me, the language barrier, or something....).

Steinar

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www.gregertsen.com

I agree that the human brain attempts to resolve audio and visual data when there are conflicts with preconceived notions. Sorta like a 'sonic strip tease', eh?

But how the brain does this with music probably depends a lot on ones musical training and temperment. Someone schooled in European music may well try to always resolve blue notes to the diatonic or chromatic notes. But as David Mason points out, that's not universal. I myself have played with good musicians who don't work like this. I had to listen again and again to get accustomed to a much more dissonant approach, but there are places where it works very nicely, to my tastes. I don't consider it 'inferior', just different.

I guess the issue is when and how one should leave something there for the brain to try to resolve. I think we agree on this: pitch should be executed with intent, not just a matter of sloppiness. It doesn't have to be analytically precise, but it should 'feel right', as David says. So until my bar slants start to 'feel better' I'm also gonna lay back on them at the gig.

A perfect example of useing a pedal and slanting the bar at the same time to get a certain inversion was the decending slide in the intro to " A Way To Survive". Sure, you can probably do it elsewhere but, it wouldn't be as seamless though would it?
It seems as though you have opened your mind a little and that's good. You never know what's right in front of your eyes sometimes. Make use of all the tools at your disposal. And that includes your bar and left hand.
Please take my remarks as intended. I didn't mean to sound harsh. And I agree with you that if slants are not done accurately they sound like to cats mateing in a metal garbage can in the middle of a hail storm. But that is what practice is for.

JMS

"when you're smiling, the whole world smiles with you."

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Dave Wren
'95Carter S12-E9/B6,7X7; Session500; Hilton Pedal
www.ameechapman.com

Slants are a great tool and well worth the effort to learn as far as I am concerned.

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Bob
intonation help

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Indian ragas are just the blues further dumbed down from your description.

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Ragas are simpler than that.

They have no place in an argument of any kind of chord.

They are single note passages.

I was going to play with some bar slants tonite.

Now I'm not.

Even for a tip.

EJL

You have got to be kidding...there are over one BILLION people in India- are they all stupid if they "REALLY like Indian music"? Not to mention other folks around the world who REALLY like it?

Nice flame bait!

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http://www.johnmcgann.com
Info for musicians, transcribers, technique tips and fun stuff. Joaquin Murphey transcription book, Rhythm Tuneup DVD and more...

Hey John, last time I looked, India was importing our culture as fast as their little Ganges bathing (EEEWWW) bodies could manage. Around the world, it's our music being adopted by the youth of the respective cultures, not the other way around. And I do mean EVERYwhere.

Pray tell, where are you hearing Indian music on pop stations, or Chinese, or any other cultures' traditional musics? Uh huh, that's what I thought. Incidentally, I DO listen to my local alternative radio stations so I DO listen to and ENJOY those traditional musics (for about an hour at a time).

As for the blues comment, let's be frank, it can be extremely tedious. Yes, I know that the blues can be well played and that helps; but there's a blues club a couple blocks from my house which features local and touring blues groups and the truly good and entertaining groups are the exception, not the rule.

After all these years I'm still amazed that so many avoid the real issue being analyzed and latch onto some supposed (and usually imagined) flame bait.

So, in summary;
bad bar slants = BAD
good bar slants - GOOD

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The vichitra veena is played with the help of a small
egg-shaped glass, called batta, which looks like
a paper weight (although it is bigger than a paper
weight), held in the left hand and made to slide upon
the strings. In the right hand, the artist wears
sitar-like plectrums on the index and middle fingers

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Whitney Single 12 8FL & 5 KN,keyless, dual changers Extended C6th, Webb Amp, Line6 PodXT, Goodrich Curly Chalker Volume Pedal, Match Bro, BJS Bar..I was keyless....when keyless wasn't cool....

[This message was edited by George Redmon on 18 June 2005 at 11:07 AM.]

Your last comment about the vichitra veena reveals your total arrogance towards what you obviously hold as an 'inferior' culture and musical tradition.

A real musician would never do that.

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www.gregertsen.com

If you make statements like "microtonal music sux" then you must know The Truth. Thanks for sharing.

Robery Cray, SRV and lots of other blues players are/were doing quite fine and don't seem to be the Sominex to some folks you think they are...

Before "Oh Brother", not much traditional American music (bluegrass) was known by young folks either....Some people will think a big "McAmerica" for world culture is a good thing...not me. I like a lot of music from all over the world, especially good acoustic music played by people who mean what they are playing.

Bar slants or no...

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http://www.johnmcgann.com
Info for musicians, transcribers, technique tips and fun stuff. Joaquin Murphey transcription book, Rhythm Tuneup DVD and more...

[This message was edited by John McGann on 18 June 2005 at 12:11 PM.]

50%: Indian music, both Northern (Hindustani) and Southern (Carnatic). I have a decided preference for stringed instruments, sarods, sitars, violins, lap slide guitars, chitravinas etc. Indian vocal music is something even a musical liberal like me hasn’t “learned to tolerate.”

30%: Western classical music, mostly mid-period symphonies and violin concertos. I am especially fond of kickass violin concertos like Paganini’s, Tchaikovsky’s D major Op.35, Vivaldi’s Four Seasons and Beethoven’s Op.61.

20%: Everything else.

I am most interested in listening to and learning from really great technicians unfold highly evolved melodies, hence these foci. On that note, I would add that the Partitas and Sonatas for Solo Violin and the Cello Suites by Bach were designed by him specifically as training aids in both theory and technique, and I have yet to meet any musician who has actually tried to learn something there that didn’t come away happier.

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I guess Indian ragas are just the blues further dumbed down

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…their little Ganges bathing (EEEWWW) bodies

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Microtonal is not big here because microtonal FOR THE MOST PART sux. But you can train yourself to tolerate it! Yeah, I suppose I could train myself to tolerate a splinter in my foot too.

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I suspect we are dealing with something more profound here than just a language barrier, but I have munificently decided to grant Mr. Pollard the permission to listen to, and play, whatever the hell he wants. As, I am sure, he will allow me. Furthermore, I second the notion that we close this thread; sorry for the hijack, Dave G., you know how these “language barriers” get. “Oh, a-slantin’ we will go…”

“Melharmony”: http://www.themusicmagazine.com/ravikiranbbc.html http://www.hindu.com/2004/07/26/stories/2004072602692000.htm http://www.ravikiranmusic.com/index.htm

[This message was edited by David Mason on 18 June 2005 at 01:21 PM.]

Seemed to work OK.

EJL

[This message was edited by Eric West on 19 June 2005 at 11:25 AM.]

All what happened was, that Dave Grafe put up an inquiring and intelligent post about bar slants.
Look where it took us

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Klaus Caprani

MCI RangeXpander S-10 3x4
www.klauscaprani.com

The Indian scale is formed in part by the natural 7th harmonic, which lies somewhere between the 6 and flat 7th of the 12-tone scale. It offers a lot of room for slanting, or microtones, between the two notes. Indeed, all blues singing is pretty fat with blurring the distinction between those two notes. I see no problem here.

[This message was edited by HowardR on 19 June 2005 at 06:13 AM.]

I've heard about fried, hard and soft boiled eggs, but SLANTED eggs ??????

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Klaus Caprani

MCI RangeXpander S-10 3x4
www.klauscaprani.com

And Daves question was answered...yes alot of guys still bar slant...and Marty promises to start working on his...nice post Dave
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Whitney Single 12 8FL & 5 KN,keyless, dual changers Extended C6th, Webb Amp, Line6 PodXT, Goodrich Curly Chalker Volume Pedal, Match Bro, BJS Bar..I was keyless....when keyless wasn't cool....

[This message was edited by George Redmon on 19 June 2005 at 07:53 AM.]

Since 1947 went I went to pedals, I didn't use them as much. But I still use them occasionally today in certain situations. Sometimes it is faster than using a knee lever.....al

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My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/

This reminds me of a classical flautist friend of mind. I played a CD for her, Charlie Hayden and the Liberation Music Orchestra (I heard that, Marty)which I thought she would love, as it crosses "out" jazz with Classical and traditional. Her reaction? They're fudging the notes. I said, But, that's intentional.

Yet, I knew what she meant. I studied classical piano for years. When I played her a CD of lapsteel, she said, They're fudging the notes. She meant parts including slants. I heard it, too, though it worked in that CD.

Still, it only works for me when I want to "fudge" the notes. I confess, I have yet to hear someone other than the great Mr. Emmons hit slants pure and true. It is not always necessary to hit notes pure and true. Sometimes, that is not what you want. (Caveat: If you hit notes cleanly with a slant, I just haven't heard you and I apologize. You could send me a free CD--to prove your point and all. ;D)

Howard, you're going to crack the yoke!!!!

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Howard, 'Les Paul Recording, Zum S12U, Vegas 400, Boss ME-5, Boss DM-3, DD-3, Sierra Session D-10
http://www.Charmedmusic.com

[This message was edited by Gene Jones on 03 July 2005 at 03:32 AM.]

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The vichitra veena is played with the help of a small
egg-shaped glass, called batta

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