Still, in this subject, my sympathies are with new players that are led to believe that they must tune to incredible complex systems that not the best or most famous among "us" can seem to define.

They don't have to.

Just tune the damned thing and play it.

It's best delved into as an interesting afterthought to a couple thousand live gigs.

That way, as in my case, it's not quite so mind boggling.

Saving you the trouble, I suppose one has to have one to boggle though..

Still lots of interesting things to think about instead of practicing.

On goes the amp, in goes the Tele..

In a "Buzz Feiten Free Zone"..

Man, does he GET it.

May I add - Take one really good player, two really good steels; one vanilla, tuned ET, one with compensators, tuned JI. Add a band. Mix in one audience of mostly non-musicians. I'd bet a nickle not a single one of the audience members could tell what's JI, what's ET, or think either one was out of tune.

Sometimes we forget who we REALLY play for. And guys - those folks don't care, and don't notice.

I play first and foremost for my own pleasure. That is who I play for. I found out a long time ago that everyone else enjoys it more when Im having fun. If I find the sound or tuning not to my liking then I dont care whether anyone else notices it or not, I fix it.
I happen to like a little sweetening of some intervals on steel, others like to tune straight up. To each their own. I just happen to like a sweeter sound (for the most part) than an average out of tuneness like straight up tuning. I personally dont think my Buds need compensators, at least not for me. Others cant live without them. Go figure.

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Got Twang ?

Mark

Jim's statement that no one hears an ET piano as out of tune is flat wrong. Composers, conductors and orchestral players have been aware of the conflict between ET pianos and the rest of the orchestra since the inception of ET and pianos. For that reason pianos are not a normal orchestral instrument in symphonies and most orchestral works. They are brought out on stage only for piano concertos and other works that specifically call for a piano. The musicians are able to make this compromise work for the audience for these pieces.

In the same way horns, strings, vocalists and steel guitars played JI by ear can sound okay with ET tuned keyboards and guitars. It is very definitely not necessary to tune and play ET in order to play with other ET tuned instruments; musicians have played JI along with ET tuned instruments in millions of performances and recordings.

Therefore, steel guitarists playing JI as much as possible are not some ignorant backwater oddballs. They are in the best tradition of Western music that goes back centuries. It is in fact self-trained guitarists, with little knowledge of music history and theory, who depend entirely on simple electronic tuning devices, that are at odds with the rest of the music community. They are not at odds because they tune ET - they pretty much have to, same as keyboard players. They are at odds because they wrongly insist that their compromised ET tuning is the one and only right way to tune, and everyone with variable pitched instruments should compromise with them.

In fact, many, if not most, guitarists don't tune strictly ET. Many guitarists will tune ET to a meter, then play a chord and tweak so the chord sounds right. While some have the training to realize they are switching from ET to JI, many don't know the difference, they just do it because it sounds better. Experience quickly teaches them that this does not work the same for all keys. So if the next song is in a different key, they may hit the tonic chord for the next key and tweak it to sound good. There is nothing wrong with this, and it works very well for standard chords and simple progressions. They are simply tweaking their tuning between songs to fit each key. Other players, who use complicated progressions, and frequent modulations to new keys within songs, learn from experience or training that it is better for them to stick strictly to ET. The really sophisticated players will tune ET when they have to, but will tweak more toward JI (by ear) when simple progressions allow them to get away with it. Also, string bending and whammy bars allow some pitch variation even on guitar, and better players will use that to play more in tune than ET.

Steel guitarists tune to chords by ear, and so from the beginning of steel guitar, they tuned JI, without necessarily realizing it. I'm sure a few of the more knowledgeable steelers, who worked with keyboards, strings and horns, and understood some music history and theory recognized the difference between JI and ET. But it was only with the advent of inexpensive chromatic electronic tuners that most steelers became aware of the different tuning systems. Suddenly the very old controversy of JI versus ET was forced on steelers. Most steelers stayed with ear tuning to JI simply because it sounded better to them; and methods were developed by Jeff Newman and others to use chromatic tuners to tune JI, or somewhere between JI and ET. As with regular guitarists, some steelers with complicated setups who played complicated chords and progressions began tuning strictly ET for practical reasons.

Apparently, some steelers who didn't understand JI and ear tuning, tuned strictly ET with a meter from the beginning of their steeling career, and their ears became accustomed to that tuning. It’s a free country, and they can keep doing this if it works for them. They have some good company in a small minority of top pros who also tune ET (after experience and experimentation, and with a full understanding of both JI and ET). But for some untrained guitar player or steeler who learns only ET meter tuning out of pure ignorance (it’s an honest mistake and we are not talking about stupidity here), and who knows little of the history and theory of music, to lecture people who know the theory and the sound of both tuning methods, and to ignorantly claim that ET and only ET is “in tune,” that is simply wrong. The people on here who know better are valiantly trying to get the full picture across without being condescending – but man it is hard.

It is a misconception that ET is required in fixed pitch instruments only so they can play in different keys. On a fixed pitch instrument you cannot play all possible chords JI even in the same key. The most common chords (I, IV, V7, VIm) can be played good JI within a given key. But some chords, such as IIm cannot be played JI even in a single key.

But the steel guitar, as the Wikipedia discussion correctly points out, avoids this problem, because simply moving the bar up five frets (or down 7) takes a JI tuned VIm chord to a JI tuned IIm chord. Moving the bar to change keys also solves the modulation problem for steel guitar. You do not have to have a bar with indents, as Jim and Eric fear. A straight bar can take any JI tuned chord, and move it to any another JI tuned chord with identical intervals. Furthermore, having tunable stops for pedal and lever changes makes it so you can get that JI IIm chord by using the B and C pedals at the I fret. Thus, the pedals and levers make more JI chords available on pedal steel than on a straight steel.

Tuning compensators (hysteresis compensators are another matter) add even more JI chords. Far from being Rube Goldberg devices to correct mechanical flaws, they are elegant devices to further refine the ability of a pedal steel guitar to play JI the same as orchestral strings, horns and vocalists. It is in fact ET that is a compromise required to correct the physical limitations of keyboards and guitars. Why in the world should the pedal steel guitar take a step backwards to those physical limitations by tuning everything ET?

It is a bit of a misconception to think that C6 requires ET. The common chords mentioned above work out fine with JI for C6. The inventor of the C6 tuning, Jerry Byrd, tuned JI by ear, and had great disdain for people who slavishly tuned straight up to a chromatic meter. And on an E9/B6 universal the B6 mode works out fine JI, because B is the fifth of E, and E is the fourth of B, therefore, mostly the same scale notes are used in those two keys. However, some 6th neck players develop very complicated setups for complicated jazz chords, using different strings as roots. They may run into the practical limits of pedal stop adjustments and compensators. At some point ET may become more practical for them. Therefore, there are some good legitimate reasons for some people to tune ET on pedal steel.

But there are several bad reasons to tune ET on pedal steel:

1) For beginners of course it may seem simpler to tune with your eyes and a chromatic meter straight up. But in fact, if you tune by your ears rather than your eyes, it is simpler to tune JI, the way the vast majority of steelers have traditionally tuned. I would not imagine any steel instructors would think it is a good idea for beginners to tune straight up to a meter simply because they cannot tune by ear. If you can’t tune by ear, you can’t play with the bar in tune. If you are in a situation where you can't hear (for example in a noisy room with a house sound system blaring while you set up), then you need to have your JI meter offsets memorized or written down a la Jeff Newman. That may seem overly complicated at first, but hey, it’s a complicated instrument – get over it. Headphones can allow you to tune by ear in any situation.

2) It is simply lack of knowledge of basic music history and theory to believe that one must tune and play a variable pitched instrument such as a steel guitar straight up to a meter simply because that is what keyboards and guitars do. They tune ET from necessity, and the meters are designed for them. The meters are not designed for steel guitar, and steel guitar does not have the same limitations. Yes, you take your reference pitch from a meter or a keyboard, the same as strings and horns do. But you tune and play everything else by ear, the same as strings and horns do.

3) It is not necessary to tune a pedal steel ET in order to play with keyboards and guitars tuned ET. Strings, horns, and vocalists have been playing JI along with ET keyboards and guitars for centuries. Steelers can too.

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Student of the Steel: Zum uni, Fender tube amps, squareneck and roundneck resos, tenor sax, keyboards

I would add and emphasis one point. All the greats that now prefer ET over JI for the reasons you laid out perfectly, learned how to play in tune with the band using JI.

When a player has problems playing the instrument in tune with the band using JI, this says more about ear training, than switching tuning methods.

Paul

[This message was edited by Franklin on 01 June 2006 at 05:22 AM.]

I guess I don't feel so unimportant though if I too have learned to play something that I can't explain..

EJL

All charts and theory aside, it alwyas comes down to this for me. I am sitting in the studio and the piano player plays a chord that is nice and in tune, and the guitar player plays the same chord and it is nice and in tune, and then I play the same chord in ET that sounds out of tune, and somehow, that is supposed to work better???? Not in my world--never has and never will.

But funny as your sarcasm is (sorry I can't be as entertaining, it's hard enough to get these points across straight up), it is worrisome that it gives false hope to self-taught guitarists who don't get the training to understand that the whole musical world does not revolve around the limitations of pianos and guitars, and who don't understand that simple electronic tuners (ones without variable presets) are meant only for the purpose of getting a reference pitch for variable pitch instruments; but all the other chromatic pitches they give are only meant for fixed pitch instruments like guitars, because of the inherent limitations of those instruments.

To go a little further into this for those who only play guitar or keyboards, the orchestral strings avoid the JI/ET problem by tuning their open stings in fifths (violins, violas, cellos) or fourths (basses). JI and ET fifth and fourth intervals are identical for all practical purposes, so there is no conflict on the open strings. This is no accident. It was worked out centuries ago precisely to avoid tuning problems. However, because these instruments are fretless (also no accident), they are free to play any note JI. The open string pitches can also be played JI by fretting on an adjacent string. On sustained notes, string players will give preference to the fretted note, so that they can play perfect JI, and also so they can add vibrato.

On horns, the valves and keyholes are manufactured to ET pitches. But the played pitch is set by the mouth. So horns, like fretless strings, can play any note either ET or JI, and players will give preference to the JI pitch their ears guide them to, unless they are trying to match a pitch set by a keyboard, guitar or fretted bass.

Obviously vocalists are guided by their ears to either JI or ET, whichever sounds best from note to note. They can sing in unison with an ET pitch from a keyboard, guitar or fretted bass. But when harmonizing with other vocalists or instruments playing JI, their ears will guide them to JI harmonies.

Spanish guitar is tuned mostly in fourths, but includes one 3rd interval. But many other intervals are introduced by the fixed frets. So tuning ET becomes a practical necessity, the same as with a piano. You can tune ET without a meter. Just tune each fourth interval by tuning to the next higher string fretted at the 5th fret. The 3rd interval is tuned to the next higher string at the 4th fret.

Steel guitar is unique in the string world in that it tunes to full chords rather than 4ths or 5ths. The biggest problems are thirds. Major 3rds are far flat of ET, and minor 3rds are far sharp of ET. So steelers are forced to deal with the JI/ET conflict head on. 7ths are also a problem, but can be put on extra strings or pedals or knees that can be tuned separately to JI. The JI 6th is far flat of ET, but this is not as big a problem as one might think. When the A of C6 is tuned JI it works out to good JI when used as the root of the relative minor chord, because it ends up suitably JI flat of the C, which needs to be sharp of the root as the minor 3rd. The strings, pedals and levers of pedal steel have evolved to play JI with no conflicts on the most common chords, not only in a single key, but in all keys.

These different ways of harmonizing can present problems in the studio. Where there is a conflict, whichever instrument is loudest sounds in tune. If you have two instruments playing a duet that are not perfectly tuned to each other, the one playing the loud lead in the foreground will sound in tune, and the one playing quieter in the background will sound out of tune. If they switch parts, which one sounds out of tune will change for the listener. For steel guitar, the JI/ET conflict is minimized in practice by the steeler "centering" their JI chord around the root ET pitch. Rather than playing the root to the ET pitch and letting the 3rds go way flat of it, the steeler will play the root and 5th slightly sharp of ET and the 3rd will end up slightly flat of ET. Nobody is thinking out each pitch, they are just making the best harmony they can, and centering is apparently what happens. For this reason, steel, horns and strings need to lay their tracks after the fixed pitch instruments, so they can harmonize appropriately with them.

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Student of the Steel: Zum uni, Fender tube amps, squareneck and roundneck resos, tenor sax, keyboards

If you play two strings at the same time and in close harmony, you must deal with all the above (no matter how you tune), but you can manipulate the bar slant and pressure to get "what you want to hear".

If you play three strings at a time in close harmony, bar pressure and slants are of limited use in "correcting" your sound to preference.

ET (equal temperament) is mathematically defined by a single equation = 2^(1/12) for halfsteps, and = 2^(1/1200) for cents. It is a convenience to spread the error somewhat equally between keys.

JI (just intonation) seems a bit more random as used (tweak tuning) but it is more closely related to the vibrational frequencies found in a single excited string.These frequencies define our preferred scales and chords, as all the needed frequencies (or multiples thereof)are sounding and beating in that single excited string, and all at the same time. The question becomes "just what is JI"?
http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/006279.html was a thread that asked this question, and got some definitive answers after a lengthy philosophical session.

[This message was edited by ed packard on 01 June 2006 at 07:45 AM.]

quote:

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To me, JI would be tuning E to 440 with thirds 16 cents or so flat.

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I don't see ET vs. JI as a wide gulf, but more like a little stream you can step across.

I think it makes complete sense for a beginner to start with ET; I did, but then I'm a piano tuner. And I learned to want to hear less beating in thirds.
I found Jeff Newman's method pedantic, but mostly because he said, more or less, that we don't know why we tune out of tune to be in tune, it's just that way.

I think your first post is one of the best I've ever read here... You address the main arguments of a complicated subject in a reasonable way, and get your own opinions across intelligently and forcefully without being condescending to those who disagree (I happen to agree).

Which considering the nature (and tone) of so many posts here takes a lot more patience than most folks have...

Thanks!

[This message was edited by Pete Finney on 01 June 2006 at 07:53 AM.]

quote:

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Mix in one audience of mostly non-musicians. I'd bet a nickle not a single one of the audience members could tell what's JI, what's ET, or think either one was out of tune.
Sometimes we forget who we REALLY play for. And guys - those folks don't care, and don't notice.

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On the contrary, I'm sure that all listeners like the sound of more pure intervals. That is why Jerry Byrd was popular.

In fact, I have always maintained that this is the main reason that people say they like the steel guitar, pedal or not.

I edited this in respect of your request.

Paul

[This message was edited by Franklin on 01 June 2006 at 09:55 AM.]

If you are in tune YOU ARE IN TUNE. Our instrument can start out perfectly in tune and, in the hands of a skillfull player STAY IN TUNE or in the hands of a less skillful player SOUND TERRIBLE.

It is more work to make a steel guitar sound in tune by microslanting the bar or avoiding certain combinations because of the way the instrument is tuned. Many have chosen to use compensators or other mechanical devices and some have chosen to modify their tuning methodology. BUT . . . the fact remains . . . what comes out of your amp is either in tune or it isn't. How you choose to accomplish that is as personal as the brand of guitar or amp you use, what effects you use, what kind of strings you prefer, and a whole bunch of other personal decisions each player has to make that determine what comes out of your amp.

It is what it is and is filtered through the ears of those who listen. To me, that's what is important.

And I join several of the others in complimenting your synopsis of this (possibly unnecessarily) complex topic. We agree on most issues. You just state it more skillfully and succinctly.

If it works for you, great! Evidently, it's not gonna work in a Nashville studio, or NYC studio, from the anecdotal evidence I have so carefully gathered

I wish it worked for me on the E9th but it doesn't. It does (mostly) on the C6th, where the same note can have several different functions within complex chord structures- I can live with the compromise there.

But for triadic music, as much as I don't want to say so, the tweaked tuning sounds better to me. Not totally JI but not totally ET. I think the 'secret formula' has everything to do with your particular instrument and technique (sigh).

And yes, we should all Shut Up and Play Our Guitars.

[This message was edited by John McGann on 01 June 2006 at 09:32 AM.]

Here's the trigonometric sum formula again:

What this says is that if two in-phase notes are played and are not exactly in tune, there are two multiplicative components: the envelope, which is a sine wave at half the difference between the frequencies, and the average, which is a sine wave at half the sum. The ear tends to filter these two components out and hears them separately - the perceived pitch is the average of the two, modulated by a difference frequency, and we perceive "beats" at the difference frequency.

To apply this to single notes on the steel, here is how I look at it. As long as it isn't an open string, you can put the bar wherever you want and play it so it's in tune by ear. On passages that are on the order of, or faster than, the beat frequency, it doesn't matter so much, because you're on to the next note before the beats are noticed - this is very convenient, because it's hard to make rapid and precise pitch adjustments. Conversely, on slow, sustained passages, the beats are perceived more clearly, but there is more time to make an adjustment by moving the bar on steel or bending a string on guitar. The critical skill is ear training, and I can see how someone could make either system work. Even on guitar, I find myself bending single notes a lot so they are "in-tune" with other players on slow, sustained passages.

But chords are another matter. The sum formula above has a generalized counterpart for two or more harmonically-related notes, and basically, the ear hears a set of somewhat more complex envelope and average tones and chords, and this is where JI vs. ET comes in most clearly, IMO. Again, if it's a fast or non-sustained passage, it's not such a big deal because beat frequencies are proportional to the difference frequencies. But on a slow, sustained passage, the beats due to various chordal notes adding can be extremely distracting, to me. This isn't as bad with double-stops, either on guitar or steel, since one can just bend a single note (on guitar) or do a little slant (on steel) and fix it. But with 3 or 4 notes, this gets messy. To me, one of the biggest attractions of steel is precisely these long, sustained, and beautifully in-tune, fat tonic chords. So I have moved significantly in the JI direction in the last year, and have moved to tuning my steel by ear, based on an root-reference pitch, as many experienced players have suggested. This is heresy to most guitar players, but makes sense for steel.

One other thing. Much has been made of the idea that an JI player playing with an ET-tuned instrument will be "out of tune". I don't think that has to be the case. Again, look at the sum formula and the idea that the ear hears the envelope (beats) and average separately. Player 1, using ET, plays a chord. There will be a sort of "minimum RMS" level of beating going on - that's the idea of ET - to minimize, on average, the harmonic tuning errors, but the ear perceives the chord being played as the "average". Even on guitar or piano, that is what we are taught - you can't play "perfectly in tune", this is the best compromise. Now, Player 2, using JI, concurrently plays that same chord - there are minimal to no beats within that chord. But Player 2 can control the average to match Player 1's average value. This is always required for a steel player to play in tune with anybody - the bar can be anywhere, it has to be done by ear. Yes, there's a difference between the envelopes of the two chords, but if Player 2 matches Player 1's average, it sounds as if they are both playing the same chord. If Player 2 is the one with the non-fixed pitch instrument, it is his responsibility to make this adjustment. Again, no matter what tuning method is used, the issue of ear training is paramount.

Again, for me this is a product of the fact that I just love those long, sustained, fat tonic chords, and the beating signal envelope gets irritating on those. The steel is a very "present" instrument, and a lot of times, those chords are out there by themselves. I want them to be "sweet". Let me also say that it is also driving me crazy playing guitar - I notice the pitch issues more now, and I don't have as much control. Thanks a lot, guys.

Edited strictly for formatting.

[This message was edited by Dave Mudgett on 01 June 2006 at 10:16 AM.]

The "good" players know what not to pick and when not to pick it to overcome some of the undesired dissonances.

In the meantime, back at the envelope, some interesting things are happening.

One is that the excited string/strings rotate as well as vibrate. The pickup (in most designs) may be as much as 4 times as sensitive to a given displacement of the string toward and away from the magnet as across the magnet...hence a single string may seem to "breath" as the envelope travels and rotates = what might be heard as a beat.

A second is that two strings will probably be rotating out of sync...Leslie speakers anyone.

I suspect that the "good" players have worked out (may-hap unconsciously) a repertoire of moves that don't violate their tonal sensibilities, while tone deaf clods like me try to see how wide a spread of structures we can have available to use.

Dave M., you reminded me to say that an additional problem with ET on steel is that our instrument is exceptionally rich in overtones, because it is a single-piece solid body without even a neck joint. That, and the way we sustain and even swell with the volume pedal really makes beats and ET more irritating on steel than other instruments, and makes JI sound that much sweeter.

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Student of the Steel: Zum uni, Fender tube amps, squareneck and roundneck resos, tenor sax, keyboards

"I would add and emphasis one point. All the greats that now prefer ET over JI for the reasons you laid out perfectly, learned how to play in tune with the band using JI.

When a player has problems playing the instrument in tune with the band using JI, this says more about ear training, than switching tuning methods."

This seems to imply that there's something wrong with Buddy Emmon's ear training or something. Why has he gone to ET if it doesn't work?

Those comments are in response of your assumptions about the JI method not working as well as ET. You were the one who stated YOU had problems with JI, not Buddy. Buddy always sounds in tune because he has mastered playing towards the bands center of pitch, which is an external skill. I was merely pointing out that he honed those skills when he tuned to JI.

ET, JI, and Meantone are various ways of tuning instruments internally. Playing fretless instruments in tune requires external skills. Hearing pitch is the ultimate external skill. Buddy Emmon's was born with great ears.

I believe when a player experiences general intonation problems with a band, changing to ET from JI is not going to solve the problem, no more than changing from ET to JI would. Developing our ears to discern the center of the bands pitch and placing the bar accordingly is the only sure way to overcome external tuning problems.

Paul

[This message was edited by Franklin on 01 June 2006 at 05:59 PM.]

Mr Bell's responses always show direction, reflection, a lack of self importance, and a willingness to entertain new ideas. I especially liked his posted examples of different tunings as he played them. It showed me a lot. It's certainly not you Larry.

I have objections only to blanket statements that include "all" "every" "nobody", "never" "always" or other terms that are misleading. Then, as you know, only with a twisted smile and a gleam in my eye. I don't drink..

I get such a kick out of your posts in particular because they are set out in exquisite debate form, lead to conclusions incrimentally, including questionable premises with a lilt and refreshing "je ne se qua", all gathering together nonchalantly for ambush, and then tend to slam the lid down on the unsuspecting victim (lightheartedly).

I warned you some ten thousand words ago that my explanation of "tuning exactly to the best tuner I can find and playing that way to the best of my ability", was becoming less wordy, and more readily defendable.

More words, like extensive

quote:

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quotes

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I apologize to Mr Franklin for in any way offending him by not publically admitting that the way I tune my guitar is wrong, and that his is right.

What he says, or rather types. is indeed right, makes perfect sense, and is borne out by his long and distinguished career, such as it has been.

It's just not right for me, and I look at it differently.

As far as the "top guys" go. I listen to "top stuff", with few exceptions, only for rehearsal for paid gigs. So shoot me.

The last time I spent a lot of time with Tim McGraw, Faith Hill, or Shania on a CD player it was a weeks worth of part time cramming for a 300$ two hour "impersonator tribute", and I was just about wrecked spiritually by the time I played the gig. I passed on the "Garth" rehearsal altogether. They thought I did fine, even they weren't really who they were pretending to be. I'm sure the real Shania would've fired me on the spot..

Now, as a matter of fact, I'm listening nonstop to every bit of telecaster I can get my hands on. I spent nearly all last nite listening to "Married to a Waitress" slowed way down for the guitar parts. I heard the steel guitar over and over again in passing, and whoever it was, was definitely very skilled at "averaging" if some parts of it sounded a bit out of tune. Hey, it's how you play it. How many million times has that been said?

I don't really care how Buddy, Bobbe, Paul, Lloyd, Larry, Lynn, Weldon, or any of them tune. I'm just glad that they do. I take it that they do so because of their own experiences and decisions. I respect them and bless them heartily.

In turn I really don't ask for their blessings or respect. What I have gotten in terms of their taking time with me, enlightening me, encouraging, befriending, selling me stuff, or even offering chastisement of my simple opinions I have appreciated.

All I want to do is in the time destiny has left for me to be able to continue to play steel for money, please myself, and those I work with and for, as I have to my own satisfaction for the last few thousand gigs, and the last 26 or so years. I'm tired, and it's a pleasant feeling.

(Now at age 53 I'v got the same itch for telecaster that I had for steel 28 years ago and guitar before that. I'm putting in a good three hours a day on it, no knowing if Ill ever "get a job". I spend about two minutes tuning it.)

I also wish to impart to those just beginning, that want to follow a similar path, enjoying life, playing a tough instrument, and even pay a few of their bills with their skills is that the "tuning" is the easy part, and I'm sorry that so many people have made this seem an "Impossible Alchemy".

It's not.

Just tune the darn thing and play it.

For Chrissake...

Bless your hearts.

EJL

[This message was edited by Eric West on 01 June 2006 at 09:02 PM.]

I'll stick with Eric and tune it and play it, though. It really is amazing what the listeners don't hear that some of us do. I can appreciate Paul's precision, as I do Eric johnson's. Both my be a bit on the extreme end of "correct"...but they aren't "wrong" either. It's a matter of what works for you as a player.

Now everybody go play your guitars.