quote:

---

You can cite all the unclear statements you want from ad writers at Sierra and misguided six-stringers, but you will never get anyone who understands a little high school physics to agree with you.

---

David, no offense, but JP's statements makes perfect sense to me.

BE's statements don't address the issue you are misstating. His strings were breaking, so he shortened the scale length and lowered the tension and solved his problem. He also shortened the total string length (TSL), but did not shorten the behind-the nut length (I assume he used the same keyhead). He could have kept the same TSL and appropriately lengthened the behind-the-nut length (by having another keyhead manufactured) and ended up with the same tension he ended up with, according to the laws of physics, and contrary to the "laws of Curt".

Notice that the Sierra ad does not even mention tension. They lengthened the scale length and shortened the behind-the-nut length and the TSL. So what? If they kept the same gauge, they had to increase the tension to maintain the same pitch with the longer scale, contrary to your misguided idea that the shorter behind-the-nut length would require less tension. If they could thus increase tension without increasing string breakage, then they either had better strings, or had some mechanical advantage, such as smoother action, larger radius on the changer, etc., not because the behind-the-nut length or TSL was shorter.

Now if we can reach this kind of terminology epiphany with Curt, there is hope we could move on.

quote:

---

Total string length is irrelevant to tension.

---

I asked Ed if he could tune his Beast up E9th. His reply:

quote:

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Yes, the BEAST could be tuned to E9 if you like to change G#s, but at the expense of the extra frequency range.

---

Ed's guitar is basically a 30 inch scale, with almost ZERO overhang(almost) Ed's guitar is basically ALL TSL(basically)

Look at the charts in this thread, and you will see what the tension is on the 0.011 G#'s for each scale length.

quote:

---

The tensions required to get A with a 0.0110” string are:
24.0” scale = 31.0 pounds pull.
25.0” scale = 33.5 pounds pull.
30.0” scale = 48.5 pounds pull.

---

You would do well to take a refresher course in reading at one should you choose to debate him further.

His statement clearly reads "Total String Length". NOT "Scale length" as referenced by Mr Packard's compilations.

I'd LOVE to see you guys debate Hydro.. Hyrdo..Hidra... Well you know what I mean...

EJL

[This message was edited by Eric West on 02 July 2006 at 08:27 PM.]

quote:

---

I'd LOVE to see you guys debate Hyrdaulics

---

Sounds good to me.

We'll start with the spelling.
Its spelled hydraulics

quote:

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With more overhang, the strings feel softer and stretch more. But that is not the technical definition of tension. The tension is technically the same if the scale length is the same, regardless of overhang.

---

Not so, David.

Eric and David, here is an exchange from Carl Dixon and Michael Johnstone:

quote:

---

Michael Johnstone
Member
From: Sylmar,Ca. USA
posted 02 May 2002 09:08 AM profile send email edit
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What I meant is that a 24" scale keyed guitar is really a 27" guitar(changer-to-tuner)and a 25" scale keyless guitar is really a 25&3/4" guitar(changer-to-tuner).So there is less tension on a 25&3/4" string tuned to G# than a 27+" string of the same guage tuned to G#.
C Dixon
Member
From: Duluth, GA USA
posted 02 May 2002 09:49 AM profile send email edit
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael,
You are correct. A 24 and 1/4" scale keyless will have less breakage (everything else being equal) than a 24 and 1/4" keyed guitar.

The reason is, even though the nut to changer length is the SAME, the total length of pulled string is very different. Therefore, the tension is quite a bit more on the keyed than the keyless.

carl

---

BTW, where are those 25 inch scale keyed guitars at? I can't seem to find them!

I miss Carl.................

[This message was edited by Curt Langston on 02 July 2006 at 08:11 PM.]

As someone said, Christians aren't perfect, they're just forgiven.

I certainly liked respected and miss him regardless of his beliefs.

Mr Dogget's Capo analogy is probably the most easily understood.

Hyrdos... Hystr... well you know what I mean.

EJL

PS, with the HIGHEST regard to Tom Baker, the new Sierra Manager and master builder, a GOOD personal friend of mine, a lot of the stuff they put out was not real accurate as far as representation of actuality.. Probably contributory to their going broke and getting sold to a new and better concern.

I highly approve of and encourage Eddie P's input with Tom, as it's a welcome change from the past company.

[This message was edited by Eric West on 02 July 2006 at 08:34 PM.]

quote:

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Total string length is irrelevant to tension.

---

And a keyed 24 1/4 inch scale guitar(with as much as 28 inches of string under tension) has more tension than a keyless 25 inch scale guitar.(with 26 inches of string under tension)

The longer the TSL, the more tension required to tune up to pitch.

More tension = more breakage.

You guys are right. It is not even high school physics. It is elementary, my dear Watson!

quote:

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a lot of the stuff they put out was not real accurate as far as representation of actuality.. Probably contributory to their going broke and getting sold to a new and better concern.

---

P.S. Who said it wasn't accurate? Do you know of anyone who said their findings were not accurate? Or is this your opinion?

[This message was edited by Curt Langston on 02 July 2006 at 09:00 PM.]

No significant increase in string tension.

(Think capo. A capo put at the twelfth fret of a guitar shortens the fretboard by half with no significant decrease in tension. In fact, on a guitar, a capo will increase the tension slightly.)

Actually, that might be offset by an additional length beyond the nut to absorb the initial attack, and lessen the initial rise in tune by a fraction of a hz. I'd like to se Ed's stats on that if he will check it.

I'm going over all the old Docs that I've collected over the years from him, but I don't see any graphs or *grams of such.

EJL

[This message was edited by Eric West on 02 July 2006 at 10:04 PM.]

The longer the TSL is, the more tension is needed to pull the string up to pitch.

TSL needs to be considered in the tension and stretching of the string. That is why you can have a keyed 24 1/4 inch scale guitar under more tension, than a keyless 25 inch scale. It is not the scale length that is causing the premature breaking of the strings, but rather the TSL under tension.

Here it is again:

quote:

---

Eric and David, here is an exchange from Carl Dixon and Michael Johnstone:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael Johnstone
Member
From: Sylmar,Ca. USA
posted 02 May 2002 09:08 AM profile send email edit
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What I meant is that a 24" scale keyed guitar is really a 27" guitar(changer-to-tuner)and a 25" scale keyless guitar is really a 25&3/4" guitar(changer-to-tuner).So there is less tension on a 25&3/4" string tuned to G# than a 27+" string of the same guage tuned to G#.
C Dixon
Member
From: Duluth, GA USA
posted 02 May 2002 09:49 AM profile send email edit
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael,
You are correct. A 24 and 1/4" scale keyless will have less breakage (everything else being equal) than a 24 and 1/4" keyed guitar.
The reason is, even though the nut to changer length is the SAME, the total length of pulled string is very different. Therefore, the tension is quite a bit more on the keyed than the keyless.

carl

---

Jim, don't get me wrong. I believe in using correct terminology, but not at the expense of being wrong. Or misconstruing someone.

[This message was edited by Curt Langston on 03 July 2006 at 05:19 AM.]

Let's refer to the distance between the changer and the roller nut as the "speaking length" of the string. That's the part of the string that the pickup "sees" and sends to the amp. We'll use the 4th string E note.

With a given speaking length you have to turn the tuning key until the tension within the speaking length of the string is such that you produce the E note.

The tension of the speaking length necessary to produce an E note doesn't change just because you've added or subtracted string length to either end of the string OUTSIDE the speaking length. If you change the speaking length (scale length) THEN the tension will need to change to still produce the E note.

Play the open E note on the 4th string. Now, move your bar up 2 frets. To reproduce that E note there, wuold you not have to adjust the tuner (loosen it) to get that E note again? Yes. A change in tension was necessary because the speaking length had changed.

The tension required to produce a given note, (the E note in my example) will be the same as long as the speaking length doesn't change. If the speaking length changes, the tension must change to arrive at the same note.

The Total String Length does not come into play when tuning the speaking length of the string. The tension of a string, stretched between two points, requires an specific amount of tension to achieve that E note. Given the same string, that tension never changes unless the two points change.

So, if the scale length remains the same from one guitar to the other, the tension necessary to achieve an E note will be the same between them. If the speaking length is different between the two guitars, a different tension will be required to tune them both to the same E note.

The TSL could be 12 inches different between the guitars, but all that matters is the speaking length's tension needed to arrive at the E note. A longer TSL will not change that.

I've got a headache too and it's too early...

... "a lot of the stuff they put out was not real accurate as far as representation of actuality."...Sierra's design, machining, and assembly were top drawer, along with their innovations. Terminology and concept are something that potential customers have a problem agreeing on. Many folk, both makers and readers (like Curt) would agree with the marketing hype= if it is written on glossy paper or parchment, it must be true. Caveat Emptor!

Curt...your quote from DD..."Total string length is irrelevant to tension."....I agree re tension, but not re tension change...think stretch et al.

..."The longer the TSL, the more tension required to tune up to pitch."... Not if the scale length remains the same.

..."Do you know of anyone who said their findings were not accurate?"...yep, me. As far as I know, these were not "findings" = no measurements...I believe that "street wisdom" and local misconceptions prevailed re the sales verbiage. Not any different from statements and claims of other makers. There is not much to be gained by an accurate sales blurb as most potential customers prefer to hear their pet terminology/phrases than fact. Learning is a painful experience.

EJL..."No significant increase in string tension."...Agreed...I like your qualifier. Required tension change = greater stretch per halftone change is another matter.

..."I'm going over all the old Docs that I've collected over the years from him, but I don't see any graphs or *grams of such."...I would hesitate to see what else you collect! Up till now, posting Graphs, Sketches, Diagrams, and complex spreadsheet info have been a problem re the Forum (for me anyway). I sent most of that data to those that asked via E-mail. Now I am playing with making it available in photo form, as in the "PHOTOBUCKET" URL.

JIM P..."Curt, you simply have the terminology wrong."...Yep; but tension is increased by string bending, just that string bending was not on the table at the time.

Curt..."The longer the TSL is, the more tension is needed to pull the string up to pitch."...Yep (surprise), but only if the scale length is also increased (no surprise).

..."TSL needs to be considered in the tension and stretching of the string."...Partial agreement. Consider TSL re stretch and related factors, consider scale length re tension issues.

quote:

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..."The longer the TSL, the more tension required to tune up to pitch."... Not if the scale length remains the same.

---

Disagree.

Ed my friend. Tune a 3rd G# string on your 30 inch scale guitar and raise it up to an A (since you basically have a scale length equal to your total string length)(not exactly, but close enough for this trial)

Play a few bars, using your pedal to stretch that G# up to an A. See how long it lasts! (might want to wear eye protection)

Yes, the longer the Total String Length is, the more tension is required to pull it up to pitch. Remember at almost 30" of scale (or in your case TSL) It is very close to,if not already at the breaking point BEFORE you attempt to raise to an A.

So, as it stands, this is STILL my point:

quote:

---

Michael,
You are correct. A 24 and 1/4" scale keyless will have less breakage (everything else being equal) than a 24 and 1/4" keyed guitar.
The reason is, even though the nut to changer length is the SAME, the total length of pulled string is very different. Therefore, the tension is quite a bit more on the keyed than the keyless.

carl

---

quote:

---

Terminology and concept are something that potential customers have a problem agreeing on. Many folk, both makers and readers (like Curt) would agree with the marketing hype= if it is written on glossy paper or parchment, it must be true. Caveat Emptor!

---

Not quite Ed. I have no problem with terminology, so long as it follows the laws of physics. No sense in a person quoting terminology, if the terminology does not apply to a given situation.

Use all the terminology that you feel necessary, but common sense must still prevail.

quote:

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..."Do you know of anyone who said their findings were not accurate?"...yep, me.

---

Tell us why they are not accurate. It seems odd that a builder such as Sierra, with the amount of precision and engineering they have developed, would claim false observation specs.

No. They are not wrong. You are, my friend.

Carl, Buddy, and Michael are right on.....

[This message was edited by Curt Langston on 03 July 2006 at 08:44 AM.]

I have also tensioned the string to pitch on the 30" scale with one end of the string being held at different TSL. This was when measuring the tension/stretch parameters for halftone changes (from an octave lower to a halftone above normal pitch....on all strings)...guess what the results were. This was done using the digital fish scale and digital vernier calipers referred to in the opening post of this thread.

The point is that YOU can prove these things for yourself by physical experiment...but I doubt that you will.

You might be surprised as to how close I was to the Sierra operation at that time. There was no attempt at deception involved, just common misconception...the discussions were interesting.

My stand is STILL:

quote:

---

Michael,
You are correct. A 24 and 1/4" scale keyless will have less breakage (everything else being equal) than a 24 and 1/4" keyed guitar.
The reason is, even though the nut to changer length is the SAME, the total length of pulled string is very different. Therefore, the tension is quite a bit more on the keyed than the keyless.
carl

---

You guessed it!

And this one, from Carl:

quote:

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A 24 and 1/4" keyless PSG, WILL have less string breakage (everything else being equal) than a 24 and 1/4" keyed PSG.

I can, and have proven it beyond ANY shadow of a doubt. The tension on strings 3 thru 7 is MUCH less on a keyless guitar. And tension IS what breaks strings. True, they happen to break at the top of the changer in most cases. But the root cause is the tension, in this analogy.

If a PSG has the Anapeg or Excel (Super B) type changers, the strings will rarely if EVER break. Plus, if one were to make two identical guitars of either of the above (and everything else was equal), the keyed instrument WOULD break strings quicker than the keyless, IF, they ever broke at all.

---

And this:

quote:

---

Michael Johnstone
Member
From: Sylmar,Ca. USA
posted 01 May 2002 11:36 AM profile send email edit
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As far as scale lengths go when it comes to string tension,it's not the changer-to-nut distance that's important - it's the changer-to-tuner distance.That's why a 24" scale keyed guitar has MORE string tension than a 25" keyless guitar - there's more actual string length on a keyed guitar.Especially the middle strings on a 12 or 14 string.The 3rd string on a 24" keyed guitar extends between 3" and 3&1/2" beyond the nut roller bringing the total 3rd string length under tension to 27+" whereas the strings on a keyless only go around 3/4" past the nut.So on a 25" scale keyless like my Sierra,the 3rd string length under tension is only 25&3/4" and on a 24" keyless like a Willy or Kline,it would only be around 24&3/4". The longer the string,the more tension is required to bring it up to a given pitch and if a string is too tight,lobing is inhibited and sustain is diminished - therefore,if a .012 was gonna work out as a 3rd string,phisics dictate that it should last longer(and sound better)on a keyless. -MJ-

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Then, there is this explaination:

quote:

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Michael Johnstone
Member
From: Sylmar,Ca. USA
posted 03 December 2002 10:21 AM profile send email edit
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The strings are easier to change - and just about all keyless guitars are something like this - you just hook the string on at the changer end and bring the other end up and wrap it around a small allen head bolt about 1/2 wrap,tighten down the bolt,bend the excess string back and forth a couple times to break it off and the string is on. Then you tune up the string either with the same allen key you used to tighten down the bolt or like on my Sierra and also GFIs work like this - you can tune the string with your fingers using little knurled buttons which look like the fine tuners on a violin. If I break a string onstage,I can have a new one on and be playing again within a verse and a chorus.As far as scales lengths go,most keyed guitars max out at 24.5" before you run into excessive string breakage because the section of string under tension(changer to tuning post)is as much as 27" on the middle strings of a keyed guitar.Conversely on a keyless design,say on a 25" scale,the section of string under tension is only 25" in total. So there is actually more tension on most of the strings on a keyed 24.5" guitar than all the strings of a keyless 25" guitar. Less tension means less string breakage and a shorter pedal pull/string stretch to achieve a given pitch change - so strings last longer and don't break nearly as much.Plus all the strings are the same length with no overhang past the roller nut which translates into zero unwanted overtones that many keyed guitars display and most guys damp out with foam rubber or plastic tubing.Not to mention that harmonics are easier to get,high register stuff is easier to play in tune and the tone is just fundamentally more pure and phat.Lightweight - compact - stays in tune for months - you can't knock it out of tune just by taking it out of the case - it's just a better design from every angle you want to talk about. C'mon guys - On with the future!
-MJ-

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This is the heart:

quote:

---

As far as scales lengths go,most keyed guitars max out at 24.5" before you run into excessive string breakage because the section of string under tension(changer to tuning post)is as much as 27" on the middle strings of a keyed guitar.Conversely on a keyless design,say on a 25" scale,the section of string under tension is only 25" in total. So there is actually more tension on most of the strings on a keyed 24.5" guitar than all the strings of a keyless 25" guitar. Less tension means less string breakage and a shorter pedal pull/string stretch to achieve a given pitch change - so strings last longer and don't break nearly as much.

---

I ask you again. Where are all the 25 inch scale keyed guitars?

They are over in the too heavy and too big to use bin!

Here's something that might bend it a little further.

In an instance where there is increased total string length with the same scale length it does take a longer throw to bring the string up to the same tension needed to produce the same hz. The tension of the string in this scale length is the same to produce the same note.

If you have a guitar, or can borrow one, decrease the "scale length" with a capo at the twelfth fret.

Does the string have the same tension?

You're getting deeper as you go here..

Oh wait. Heres another:

quote:

---

Bill Stafford
Member
From: Gulfport,Ms. USA
posted 13 November 2005 02:17 AM profile send email edit
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And "tighter means brighter". The overall string length is shorter with the keyless configuration. This is one of the reasons there is less string breakage and allows for a longer scale. I bet a lot of us can remember how great those 26" scale Fender Stringmasters sounded??? (We are working our way up to that, hopefully).
Bill Stafford

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Those rascals just keep popping up, don't they?

quote:

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They are over in the too heavy and too big to use bin!

---

Ed, surely you are not implying that an increase of 3/4 of an inch will make the guitar "too big and heavy" as the reason for builders not make a 25 inch scale guitar?

No, the builders found out long ago, that a keyed 25 inch scale guitar breaks strings too often.

Simple.

BUT! This is still a good discussion, and I appreciate your input, even when I disagree with you on issues such as this.

Eric, I can't pretend to follow your logic.

Sorry.

[This message was edited by Curt Langston on 03 July 2006 at 10:45 AM.]

If you take a guitar and decrease the "scale length" with a capo at the twelfth fret.

Does the string have the same tension?

The answer should be a simple yes or no.

Thanks.

Further, Ed has measured these tensions experimentally. I don't know what anybody else needs, but if you want to argue further, try this experiment:

First, get or borrow a typical metalhead guitar with a locking nut and floating Floyd Rose tremelo. Now loosen the locking nut, tune the strings to pitch. Set up the tremelo so that it floats very sensitively up and down with the minimum spring pressure. Observe the effect of changing the pitch of one of the strings. If you have it floating sensitively, if you sharpen one string, the others should go flat and if you flatten one, the others should go sharp. The point is that the string pitches relate strictly to the string tensions. Of course, if you can measure the string tensions, even better. Now lock the locking nut very tightly. String pitch, hence tension, should not change. Now, go ahead - using the regular tuning gears behind the locked nut, loosen the strings between the locked nut and the tuner, even cut them off if you like. Does the string pitch, hence tension, change between the locked nut and the bridge? It should not if you have done this correctly. That is the entire principle of the Floyd Rose tremelo. It is the scale length that sets pitch at a given tension, not the total string length, in my experience. Of course, this is what is predicted in theory, as long as the pressure at the bridge/changer and nut are strong enough to keep the string from moving at the scale length endpoints. But theory or not, the experiment Ed describes holds the most weight, IMO.

Here is the flaw in your statement:

quote:

---

The boundary conditions to the typical string equation are the places that the string does not move at all, and that is at the nut (locking or not) and the changer/bridge.

---

"the places that the string does not move at all, and that is at the nut "

I hope you are not saying the the overhang portion, (keyhead portion of string) does not move. Because if you are then, you too are wrong.

What happens to the overhang when you tune the strings?

What happens to the overhang when you use your pedals to pull a string up to another note?

Well, THEY MOVE. They are under tension, and MUST be included in measuring string tension.

Otherwise you would not need a roller nut! (Keyless GFI is the exception, since thet basically do not have to deal with overhang, and the increased tension associated with it)

quote:

---

Now, go ahead - using the regular tuning gears behind the locked nut, loosen the strings between the locked nut and the tuner, even cut them off if you like. Does the string pitch, hence tension, change between the locked nut and the bridge?

---

Of course not Dave. You have already tuned it to pitch, and the keyhead portion was under the same tension as the scale, until you loosened or cut it. The locking nut holds the tension on the scale, that was pulled up, which included the keyhead portion
You are proving my point here.

The longer the Total String Length, the greater the tension.

Back to the heart of the matter:

quote:

---

As far as scales lengths go,most keyed guitars max out at 24.5" before you run into excessive string breakage because the section of string under tension(changer to tuning post)is as much as 27" on the middle strings of a keyed guitar.Conversely on a keyless design,say on a 25" scale,the section of string under tension is only 25" in total. So there is actually more tension on most of the strings on a keyed 24.5" guitar than all the strings of a keyless 25" guitar. Less tension means less string breakage and a shorter pedal pull/string stretch to achieve a given pitch change - so strings last longer and don't break nearly as much.

---

"Still looking for some 25 inch scale keyed guitars" "Reward offered"

No need to shudder, Dave. We're all having a good discussion here.

Enter in!

quote:

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This is fun stuff...sooner or later good comes from the discussions.

---

"Looks like it's going to be later, unless I find me a herd of them there 25 inch scale keyed breed!"

All in good fun my friends.

[This message was edited by Curt Langston on 03 July 2006 at 11:56 AM.]

If you take a guitar, and decrease the "scale length" with a capo at the twelfth fret.

Does the string have the same tension?

How 'bout this one.

Do your folks know you're on their computer?

quote:

---

Does the string have the same tension?

---

The TSL tension was set when you tuned the guitar up to pitch. That TSL tension included the keyhead length. A capo MAY slightly increase TSL tension, depending on how high the strings are off the fretboard. (talking six string here) Simply by mashing the strings down to the fret.
TSL tension was determined while tuning the guitar up to pitch.

Remember the longer the TSL, the greater the tension required to bring the guitar up to pitch.

This is getting better and better all the time!

quote:

---

Do your folks know you're on their computer?

---

LOL

No, but my boss does. I work in a large hospital, where I can get to a PC about every 100 feet!

quote:

---

You're getting deeper as you go here..

---

We have barely scratched the surface!

[This message was edited by Curt Langston on 03 July 2006 at 12:49 PM.]

regards Pat

If you had no nut at all, the tension would be the same as if it were halfway inbetween the keyhead and the bridge. The further away from the keyhead you move it, the higher the pitch of the string is, with NO change in string tension.

The answer you seek, you inadvertantly posted.

I'd say "think about it", but I don't want you suturing the wrong blood vessel to the wrong cerebral quardant when it hits you.

EJL

PS: Don't think that I haven't made some bonehead mistakes.

Lets look at your quote from Bill Stafford. I don’t have the context, but just running the numbers re what I know and what is given I get some interesting results.
The quote:
And "tighter means brighter". The overall string length is shorter with the keyless configuration. This is one of the reasons there is less string breakage and allows for a longer scale. I bet a lot of us can remember how great those 26" scale Fender Stringmasters sounded??? (We are working our way up to that, hopefully).
Bill Stafford

“And "tighter means brighter"”. Not the issue here, except that it indicates that the tension on his 25.5” scale is greater than something.

“The overall string length is shorter with the keyless configuration.”…OK,for a given scale length, and if the keyless tuner is placed right at the end of the scale, which it is in the case of his Sierra.

“This is one of the reasons there is less string breakage and allows for a longer scale.”…’ONE of the reasons’ indicates that there are other reasons. I assume here, that Bill is talking about his 25.5” scale. Take the G# on a sho Bud as a reference…It is 3 5/8” from the nut to the tuner peg, giving a 28 ½” TSL and a 24” scale. The 25 ½ “ scale on Bill’ Sierra had ½” from nut to string anchor on the keyless tuner, and 1” over the finger apex…so TSL = 25.5+0.5+1.0 = 27” TSL.

So, G# TSL Show Bud = 28.5”,Scale length = 24.0”
..G# TSL Bill’s Sierra = 27.0”, Scale length = 25.5”

Result = longer TSL Sho Bud with the shorter scale length has the lower tensioned G#.
The Shorter TSL Sierra with the longer scale length has the higher tensioned G#.

Why does the shorter TSL have the higher tension? (Both by calc, and by measurement here and now…yes I have one of Bill’s Sierra units).

How can one say that the higher tension might have less string breakage?

Could one of the “other” reasons be that there is less stretch for a halftone change on Bill’s Sierra (or for that matter on his EXCEL that came along later?

Over and out;

quote:

---

The answer you seek, you inadvertantly posted.

---

How so?

Again, my point is this: A keyed 24 1/4 inch scale guitar is under more TOTAL tension, from TUNER to CHANGER than a keyless 25 inch scale. And TENSION is what breaks strings. Both guitars are tuned to E9th, but one of them has more TOTAL tension. One of them has more TSL. Guess which one? Thats right, the 24 1/4 inch scale guitar.
The main reason guitar builders will not build keyed guitars in the 25 inch scale, is they realize that you cannot expect the strings to last when you have a 25 inch scale, PLUS the 3 1/2 - 6 inches of overhang.

Again, it is not the scale length, but the TSL that is the determining factor in string breakage.

Thats why Excel and Sierra can have a 25 inch scale guitar. They make it keyless, so that they can have a longer scale, with less TSL and string breakage!

Stay with me.

You'll get it.

quote:

---

A keyed 24 1/4 inch scale guitar is under more TOTAL tension, from TUNER to CHANGER than a keyless 25 inch scale.

---

quote:

---

As far as scales lengths go,most keyed guitars max out at 24.5" before you run into excessive string breakage because the section of string under tension(changer to tuning post)is as much as 27" on the middle strings of a keyed guitar.Conversely on a keyless design,say on a 25" scale,the section of string under tension is only 25" in total. So there is actually more tension on most of the strings on a keyed 24.5" guitar than all the strings of a keyless 25" guitar. Less tension means less string breakage and a shorter pedal pull/string stretch to achieve a given pitch change - so strings last longer and don't break nearly as much.

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And we still have the question: Where are all the 25 inch scale keyed guitars? Aren't the longer scaled guitars the ones that have the sweetest and most sought after sound? Why are they not being built?

An 0.011 G# cannot pull up to an A on a 25 inch scale keyed guitar,(very long, that is) after being under so much tension to start with, due to the LONGER TSL.

Back to square one.

Where are the 25 inch scale keyed guitars?
They are not being made. If so, show me one. I'm open.

Remember BE already tried the 25 inch scale Sho-Bud, but quit, after he realized that he could not keep strings on it.

Was he wrong too. How about Carl? Is he wrong as well?
Michael Johnstone?

Is everyone wrong?

Keep it coming!

This is good stuff!

[This message was edited by Curt Langston on 03 July 2006 at 01:41 PM.]

The object of this is NOT to convince YOU or anyone else of anything, just to lay out the viewpoints...the thread title is HOW TO, and laid out ways to do certain things re PSGs with instrumentation as opposed to verbal fencing and pet conceptions/misconceptions.