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Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog

quote:

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there are 3 standardized knee levers, offered on every 10 string by every current manufacturer.

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I'd go 2 steps further and say that 3 knee levers are only the minimum, and one should ideally have 5. One to lower the B strings to Bb (The Carter starter as this change) and one to raise the F# strings to G.

I believe the proper place for the F# to G change is on a vertical so it can be used in conjunction with the B pedal.

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Warning: I have a Telecaster and I'm not afraid to use it.
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My web site

[This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 29 October 2006 at 10:59 AM.]

b0b, I guess you still just don't grasp the point at all. Those "minimums" ARE necessary for "normal" playing - traditional country and what you hear on the radio - at least for the most part. And I don't disagree with that, PLUS I think any beginner who wants to play country needs that setup (your standards are still not standards - not every maker drops the second string the same way - and a 4th knee is totally up for grabs. They are also not all in the same place, so you can't really call it "standard" and hand it off to a beginner without some explanation that "your guitar may vary").

But not EVERYONE needs that setup. It IS style-dependant. I do not understand why you just refuse to accept this, but a whole bunch of us are just deers-in-the-headlights every time you say the same thing - because (and some of us are beginners) we know what works.

That's why I suggest you step away from trying to answer questions about these guitars - you admittedly do not have one, have never played one to any extent, and if you have it's likely been tuned to some version of E9, for an attempt at country. You can look at it on paper all you want - but until you play one for a while in one of the other copedents (and with more than 4 pedals, which is NOT the only version...and it's a 15 minute job to add a pedal, maybe.) you will not "get" it. I'm not sure you will "get" it then, because you don't seem to WANT to.

"Your" minimum standard is suitable for 90% of new steel players. You don't understand the other 10%, so why don't you just accept that fact and quit trying to force uneeded (and unwanted) setups on people who don't need them...ever?

The 10-string, 3+? is not needed by everyone, nor every beginner. But you have to understand what the Fenders can do - and you don't. Please let people answer those questions that are qualified to do so. Pushing all players to a self-acclaimed "standard" regardless of their style or desires is a disservice to the steel community.

[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 30 October 2006 at 06:09 AM.]

quote:

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Q: WHAT IS YOUR CURRENT COPEDENT?
RY: RKR is your standard 2nd string lower. RKL lowers the B's.LKL lowers the
E's. LKR raises the E's. The G# to F# lower is on a vertical. I use the
Day set-up on the pedals.

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Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog

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Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog

quote:

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Those "minimums" ARE necessary for "normal" playing - traditional country and what you hear on the radio

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Not exactly. Those minimums are necessary to play MUSIC THAT'S BASED ON MAJOR AND MINOR CHORDS AND SCALES. Country music happens to fit into that catagory. So does Mozart.

The way I see it, the 3 knees levers are absolutly necessary, the other 2 (B-Bb abd F#-G) are not, but they do expand the harmonic range of the instrument, and are therefore desirable.

Another change that's not absolutely necessary, but nevertheless desirable, is G#-G. A number of players have this as a "zero" pedal to the left of the A pedal. I have it on a knee lever.

[This message was edited by Mike Perlowin on 29 October 2006 at 01:02 PM.]

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Can you slide up and down the triad scale:
C Dm Em F G Am Bdim C

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While I don't disagree with the utility of the E9 3x4 setup, what music ever requires such a progression??? It reminds me of folks who think that learning to play scales teaches you how to play lead guitar. The ability to play a scale is useful only in sofar as it teaches you where the notes are. Music is NOT composed of scales.

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Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog

quote:

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To me, swing played on E9 with modern style changes and moving lines within chords sounds horrible.

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Randy Beavers makes it sound pretty good.

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http://www.johnmcgann.com
Info for musicians, transcribers, technique tips and fun stuff. Joaquin Murphey transcription book, Rhythm Tuneup DVD and more...

One note: I am VERY grateful that we have the SGF to discuss this. I wouldn't have got anywhere without the great help and advice I have received here. I hope we can celebrate our differences as well as we find support in our common cause of the Steel Guitar!

Ian

[This message was edited by Ian Finlay on 29 October 2006 at 02:43 PM.]

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swing played on E9 with modern style changes and moving lines within chords sounds horrible.

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The thing is, moving lines within chords is only one sound or style of playing. Granted it's the predominant popular style, but it's still just one style. It's not the only sound and style that can be played on the tuning.

To say the E9 tuning can only produce country licks is like saying a Strat can only play Jimi Hendrix licks. The tuning is capable of playing many different sounds and styles, including swing, rock, classical, and blues.

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Warning: I have a Telecaster and I'm not afraid to use it.
-----------
My web site

[This message was edited by Mike Perlowin on 29 October 2006 at 03:05 PM.]

"Jim, I think that promoting the E9th as a "country only" copedent does a huge disservice to all of us who play other types of music on it. To me, the question ultimately boils down to, can you transition from one chord position position to the next? "

That wasn't the point. I guess I must be communicating this wrong...except about 50 people seem to understand fine.

WHAT I am saying is that when YOU get an email from a newbie, and he's a country guy, recommending E9 3+3 (or 4) makes perfect sense. But in other cases, it MAY NOT. I'm NOT saying it's a country-only copedent...but I am saying that it is used 99% of the time FOR country. If people play other styles on it, wonderful. No quibbles about that. but they don't HAVE to have that setup to play all other styles. You've got the cart in front of the horse again.

And if a player wants to do alt-country, country-rock, blues, etc, there's NO reason - if he has some basic musical knowledge - that the Fenders won't work great for him ***If he is aware of all the up-and-downsides***.

ALL YOU GIVE IS THE NEGATIVE. You don't KNOW the positives because you don't play the friggin' instrument, b0b! And if you DID, you would be analyzing it from technical angles that most players dialed-in to the 8-strings totally ignore...because they are not essential.

And your whole "triad" example is completely irrelevant except in the context of your own playing, as the typical rock/country-rock guitar player does not think in those terms. Most also don't play in terms of scales - we play in terms of "pockets".

What I am trying to get through to you is that you do not grasp what non-theorist, non-technical, basic rockers, blues guys, and jamband folks think. I've read your posts over and over, and you think in music-as-engineering terms. To understand the whole 400 concept, you need to get it on a more visceral level, and you're not there, my friend.

Neither is my friend Mike. I really appreciate what you both say - but you are *overthinking* the entire thing. You are assuming all players practice scales and progressions based on theoretical concepts. Uh - no. Most of the people who would gravitate to the 400 would simply "play". I played guitar for 40 years, made pretty damned good money, did thousands of gigs - and have never played that triad -thing in my life. I've played a maj7 chord probably 6 or 7 times, by accident. When I solo, I NEVER think of a scale, I think of a "box". I likely could not tell you what note I was on if you stopped me, and neither could most 6-stringers, because we play by feel.

And guitarists coming to steel, for the most part, see the thing that way. I've talked to many of them, and the whole "need for a zillion levers" and "moving triads" goes "whooosh" right over their heads. They (we) think differently - and we can play, but we don't need the same gadgets, and we use a different frame of reference.

It's a different approach to the instrument, and I doubt you'll ever understand what I'm talking about - because it's based on the heart, not the analysis.

Which is why I again suggest you just step back and let others handle those questions. You can't answer something you know nothing about. I would not attempt to answer a technical question about chord structures on an E9 tuning, or whether the 3+3 setup will play some (fill in the name of a country star here) song, because I don't have that frame of reference.

This was my only resource when I was trying to decide whether or not to play. I read these posts and tried my best to make the right decision. When I read all the comments in this thread, I just hoped that no beginners were lurking and reading them and saying "well if these guys can't come to a conclusion, how am I ever gonna be able to understand this?"

My point is, a beginner doesn't always know what he wants, so it is up to the more experienced players to help him make the right decision.

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Kyle Everson
Sho-Bud Pro-II
Fender Twin Reverb
Goodrich 120

Someone wrote;
"You know, Keith Richards doesn't have the 6th string on his guitar. He plays with just 5 strings. Would you recommend that every aspiring rock guitarist remove their 6th string, so that they can rock like Keith?"

Well, on the guitars that Keith does use only 5 strings on, he is tuned to open G. And, it totally works. So, yes, if that is what you are going for, I say go for it.

My first PSG was a Wright Custom; D8, cable pull, no knee levers. I had no lessons or info at all. I was happy that it was still in tune when I got it home so I could notate what notes the strings were tuned to so that I could retune it when it sipped out of tune. I dug in on my own and learned a few songs by ear, and created a PSG part for a few other songs from scratch. From about 2 weeks after I first bought it I played two songs a night on that steel, for about 6 months. I then went to see Poco perform and talked to Rusty Young for a quite a bit. I went home, sold my Wright, ordered a new Emmons, set up like Rustys, Jimmy Day pedal layout and full copedent with the KLVRs that Rusty suggested. When I received my Emmonds I had to relearn all those songs to be able to play them again with my band. I did not play them any better, and I know the Wrigth sounded better. I only played the chromatic strings and the associated knee levers, when someone asked me what they did. I used strings 3-8 and the A,B, and C pedals. I was better off with the Wright, that did not have the chromatic strings, knee levers, or bass strings that I did not play.

I recently decided I wanted to buy another PSG and learn to play. Since it had only been 35 years since I sold or played my Emmons, I thought doing a little research would not hurt. I did my homework. I checked out a few PSG's, and all of the threads said I should check out the Carter Starter. I went and played a Carter Starter 3 different times. I was not impressed at all. It was thin sounding, unstable, Flimsy, minimal mech were included on the undercariage. It had no pedal stops, and .... a FIXED WELDED copedent. Did anyone learn anything from the Sho-Bud Permanent or Maverick ? At least the Sho-Bud was built well, looked good, and sounded good, even if the copedent was "permanent". I did not play PSG that long, way, way, back in my teen years, maybe 18 months or so, but I played Day, and some of those motor memories are still there.

I would have gladly bought a Fender 400, or another Wright if I could have found and afforded one. They were my FIRST choices. The Carter Starter was my last choice. Actually, I had decided to buy a nice quality used PSG or no PSG. I could not see buying a Carter Starter, I would be too dissatisfied with it, and I would be forced to learn Emmons or Welding. I checked the Forum from time to time, and eBay 3 times a day for a few weeks until I did a "Buy it now" within 45 mins of the item I wanted being listed. I bought a Fender/Sho-Bud with 3+1. It is more than I need for now, maybe forever. I do wish I had a changer that let me raise and lower the same string, but I will work with what I have. It is a lot more than Jimmy Day and many others had. I am setting it up for what works for me. I am set up Day, I do not have the chromatic strings, I start with my 1st string being a G# and my only Knee Lever is set up to do the solo E to F# Mooney pull. If I had 4 pedals I may have put it on the 4th pedal. I have spent many hours reading interviews and comparing copedents as I am looking for what will work for ME. I often find myself intuitivelly pushing pedals that do not change the string(s) I am playing on, just to find that those changes do not exist in my copedent, or the standard E9 copedent even with the chromatic strings and all the knee levers.

The chromatic strings were, and still are awkward to me, and many others. They are a "kludge", a fix , a bandaid to try and add these notes to the existing accepted tuning at the time. They were put where they are so that they could be "backward compatible" with the existing well known copedent of the time. No one wanted to throw everyone off by adding a string, or pedal or two in between what was the norm.

Look, Once upon a time, everyone used hand signals to let another driver know they were turning. Then someone invented the Electric Turn Signals using the existing wiring to your Brake Lights. Then they were offered as an option in cars, and also as an aftermarket add-on. Then they became mandatory, it became the Law. Car designers have to add bulbs and wiring, and include Turn Signals on all cars for sale. Fine, they are a great help.

But,... what if,.... they decided to install the Turn Signal SWITCH ... OUTSIDE the drivers side window,.... just because everyone was used to putting their left arm out the window when they were making a turn. It could have happened, but lucky for us putting the Turn Signal Switch on the Steering Columb did not impeade using the Steering Wheel, Gear Shifter, or Gas or Brake pedals.

A Fender 400, 800, 1000, 2000, all all fine, IF you KNOW what you want to do, and what that will take.

If I am wrong, and you decide that the Fenders I listed above, or a Wright Custom, etc. is not worth it's Salt, then please, email me and I will gladly pay you the little some believe these are worth and I will give them a good home.

[This message was edited by Fred Bova on 29 October 2006 at 09:22 PM.]

quote:

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Lloyd Green has proven that the 4th string lower is unnecessary for a complete system, but few players are willing to give it up. I believe that this is a symptom of the reluctance to make full and proper use of the chromatic strings.

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quote:

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The chromatic strings... are a "kludge", a fix, a bandaid to try and add these notes to the existing accepted tuning at the time. They were put where they are so that they could be "backward compatible" with the existing well known copedent of the time.

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Of course people think that what they already have is the best possible thing that could ever be - that's part of the design, too. Progress is driven by an intricate weaving of malcontentment and acceptance, innovation and consolidation. It takes both the 1,000 people happily whanging away on the "standard" E9th tuning to find out how to make 'er rip, AND it takes the deranged madman with a screwdriver and a welding torch dicking around with things to make them "better." Hopefully "better"....

It's obvious that the E9th tuning, the repertoire, and the technique have co-evolved so incestuously that they can't be separated; it's equally obvious that there are several ways to arrange things to play b0b's diatonic chord series, which I agree is a good minimal starting point. I suspect that if you asked ten scientists to consider the needed notes, the size of the human hand, and cost and efficiency, they would come up with ten different tunings. I also suspect that two of them would be really close to the modern E9th and C6th tunings - that's sort of how evolution works, back pain, stuffy nose or not. I play a S-10 C6th with 5+4, and I can play b0b's chords OK enough.

There is when b0b steers every beginner to "his" idea of what's needed, regardelss of that player's experience or style. that's why I say if a guy asks b0b what to buy as a beginning country player, sure, answer the question. If a guy is wanting to play popular country and is considering a 400, sure, tell him it might not be right - but ALSO steer him to one of us. And if a player just asks if a 400 is appropriate for a beginner with no other info - forward that to one of us.

quote:

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It's obvious that the E9th tuning, the repertoire, and the technique have co-evolved so incestuously that they can't be separated;

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I disagree. This http://www.perlowinmusic.com/DebussyAfternoonofaFaun.mp3
was done on a standard E9 tuning, with no altertion.

The tuning can handle just about anything. It's potential has only begun to be explored. The typical Nashville style of playing is only the beginning if the tunings capabilities.

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Warning: I have a Telecaster and I'm not afraid to use it.
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My web site

I can only say, from a little over a year's experience with a Fender 400, that if I had learned on something else, I'd be missing an awful lot. Those of you who claim otherwise, will claim otherwise, and I'll go off to write with a peaceful "Fender 400induced smile" on my face.

I started with 8 strings and 4 pedals, (F, A, B, E-Eb) and I thought that was all I'd need. Ever. The particular model came ready for 6 pedals, though, and it seemed a shame to have those empty holes, so I put the others under it(G#-G, B-Bb), changed the copedent to suit my liking, (dropped the F#) and, with the help of an older brother, added a funky knee lever.(E-F#) (again, there were holes already, may as well fill them).

From a beginner's standpoint though: If you learn with less, you'll BE a better player. Finding out how to do more with less is something that SHOULD be valued instead of shyed away from, IMO. I'd swear this up and down both covers of any holy text you present me with.

Further, though, I know it was mentioned earlier that the "beginner's setup" needs particular "minimum" requirements...gotta go with "no" on that one as well. The Fender (and any other gear I buy) forces me into a particular "box"...it's up to me (and everyone) as PLAYERS to play our way out around and through said "box"

One example: Having(getting) to use two feet has made my hands better players--not being able to spend the night on my volume pedal, "clamping" down on the bum notes (something I think beginners can relate to for sure) means you can't hit as many. If I had an assload of knees under there, to facilitate 1 footing it, I WOULD spend more time with that other foot "resting".

I'm not sure if I added anything to the discussion, but I hope so. I pretty much can disagree with both "sides" presented here, in that, frankly, if you're devoted enough to an instrument, or a song, or a lick, you'll figure out a way to make it work for you. If that means you end up playing ukelele instead of pedal steel, because someone told you to start on the wrong model, then we get a new uke player instead. I'm ok with that.

....and I'm spent.

That sums it up for me.

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Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog

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Bob
upcoming gigs
My Website

But we haven't had our Isaac Newton, yet. Whatever genius devised the tuning for the 6-string (fourths with a single third) deserves a Nobel.

BoB & Jim both have made good points though!!!

???????

Boy, all those country rock recordings of Sneaky Pete and Al Perkins,as well as the early stuff that Chalker,Emmons,and Moon recorded did NOT sound limited at ALL to my ears, but what do I know????

The Fender steels are only limited because we grew accustomed to the latest and greatest in steel guitar innovation and technology,,, The are VERY durable, IN TUNE and beautiful sounding steels that have a sweet tone like NO other..

But Bob H may have put his finger on it. If I want to be a "steel player", I would need to conform to that modern definition. But I want to be a musician playing my music on the tool that works for me. And that's a Fender 1000 (or a Bigsby, or a bunch of similar configured instruments). The Fender just has the tone I want and the control layout I like and the ability to be changed rapidly that I enjoy.

Perhaps there's a parallel with 6 string.... I have mostly vintage guitars. None are suitable for rock, metal and many top 40 styles. No use for classical, flamenco, Django etc. But if a player was to turn up to any gig I play with a Parker Fly, or an ESP, or a Strat or Variax he'd have NO chance of sounding right. My '55 Gretsch Duo Jet through an Echoplex into a '59 Bassman would be the right choice. In the retro world I inhabit, players choose repro Gretsches, or Epiphones, or whatever other "limited" instrument for THAT sound for THAT music they hear in their souls.

For THIS beginner at least, the Fender speaks to me and gives me the sound and feel I want. Nothing else will do (OK, Bigsby's aside...)

Do you actually READ the posts from the guys who DO play the instruments? Do you realize how many of us fabricate/trade parts?

No - you only know that if it doesn't have enough gadgets, it's inferior.

Obviously, tone isn't a factor either - players DO buy instruments for their tone.

But b0b, you're just NOT going to allow yourself to understand this issue, and you refuse to solve the entire issue you raise in your initial post by allowing others to help you.

You DON'T get it, you REFUSE to attempt to understand it, you DON'T play the instrument, and you WON'T let anyone help you with an imagined situation that YOU think is a problem.

What in the HECK are you thinking? You've now had about 20 guys support the idea that the instrument IS appropriate for some players, volunteers to take the "advice" load off you, since you are unqualified...but you won't let go.