A Carter Starter isn't right for everyone.

A Fender isn't right for everyone.

Some folks like the 2007 Mustang with the heated seats and satellite radio.

Some folks like the 66 Mustang with it's nostalgic look and feel and the ability to tinker on it under the hood.

Where you go with it and if you enjoy the ride all depends on the driver.

This is just my 4 cents worth.

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2003 Zum D-10, Peavey Nashville 1000, Peavey Session 500, Session 400, 1954 Fender Custom T-8, Late 60's Fender 400 8x0, 1968 Fender Telecaster, PodXT

[This message was edited by Pat Irvin on 30 October 2006 at 03:01 PM.]

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Bobby Lee
-b0b- quasar@b0b.com
System Administrator
My Blog

Bull.

Again, you DON'T get it and are putting words in my mouth. It's a totally abstract example, now that I've thought about it a bit - I could no more make a recommendation based on THAT than I could on the guy's preference of pancake syrup flavors.

A "tune" doesn't tell anyone the guy's intent, what he ultimately wants to do, his experience, what he wants in an instrument...it's absolutely ludicrous to imply I would make a recommendation based on that.

You're REALLY out in left field b0b. I do not know what got you all wacked-out about this, but you are now making no sense at all. What you're posting has no basis in fact, no logic, and goes exactly AGAINST what I've said.

2- If the chromatic strings are unnecessary how come EVERY important player (aside from Sneaky Pete) has them?

3- If Sneaky's B6 tuning is so uuperior, how come no other major player else uses it?

Are/were Buddy Emmons, Lloyd Green, Paul Franklin, John Hughey, Jimmy Day, J.D. Mamess, Curly Chalker, Hal Rugg etc., all wrong?

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Warning: I have a Telecaster and I'm not afraid to use it.
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My web site

This thread has gone from bad to ridiculous. I only wish Marty Pollard was still a member and could post in this one.

And TIM, yeah Jim Sliff can be pretty abrasive but he has as much right to disagree with anyone here, including b0b, as anyone else, TIM, and I think it's b0b's decision who should be dismissed, not yours.

You might remember that it was b0b who started this discussion and the original post was quite clearly directed against a supposed recommendation by Jim Sliff, he's got a right to respond equally directly. It's Jim's choice how far he wants to go, and b0b's decision what he thinks is too much.

If I know b0b at all, he would not kick anyone out of here just because they are a little abrasive or disagree with him, that's how it should be, he is a fair man, obviously unlike yourself who surely would kick anyone out who doesn't agree with you. Lucky for us, this is b0b's forum and not yours, and I for one don't find Jim's abrasive attitude any worse than your snobbish/snotty boyscout attitude, so stop claiming you know what all the rest of the forumites think.

[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 30 October 2006 at 05:17 PM.]

But I do think that this is a conversation in which everyone can take part given that everything said is opinion, and we don't have to get to the truth--it's just a discussion.

B0b starts these things to get a discussion going. He posted a crazy copedant I was considering, and I learned a lot about things through the discussion, stuff I still think about.

So everybody quit making it personal,
and above all,
everybody quit telling everybody else that they're doing exactly what you're doing.

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Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog

My comments are not directed at the experience, knowledge base or valid contributions that Jim or anyone else makes to the SGF.

However, I feel that this information could be disseminated in a way that lends itself to a freindly community, which is part of the SGF Mission Statement.

"snobbish/snotty boyscout attitude.."

Whatever Phelps.. I happen to have respect for b0b and his efforts. He really has no business being personally attacked - by anyone.

Anyone can disagree with anyone and
everyone has an opinion... but there comes a point when the opinion is put to the wayside by personal attacks. That is not right.

Nobody deserves that.

Me thinks he want to join the Fender club but would have to ask Jim all those questions about set up and such ... and just can't handle the thought ... LOL!

Mike P. I wonder if Pete had been in Nashville how the pedal steel might have developed?

[This message was edited by Russ Tkac on 30 October 2006 at 06:20 PM.]

And he's right - we talk like this all the time! And we play some of the same stuff, coming at it from completely different perspectives, though.

However - I stand by two really critical points: 1) I never have made the recommendations b0b said I did, and I do kind of resen the implication. 2) b0b does not understand the Fender guitars, admits as much - yet will not allow people who DO to take the inquiries about the off his hands, as if he's afraid his reputation will be sullied if one is recommended. This is not an insult - but that is an ignorant position to take. Please b0b - let people deal with this who "get" it. Have COUNTED the posts yet? It seems there are an awful lot of people who very clearly disagree with you.

And Mike - First, "HOW COME NOBODY IS MAKING REPRODUCTIONS OF THEM" - is simply because Fender still owns the tooling, and while they are simple to service they are not simple, nor cheap, to build. FWIW Fender has kicked around the idea, and several others are also in the fray. You might see them yet. Another reason is that although they ARE tremendous imstruments, they DO appeal to a small part of a very small (overall) steel market, and cost is a huge factor.

Ed Bierly already answered the chromatic string question - go back and read it. Besides, it's irrelevant, because we are talking about an instrument that doesn't have them.. does that seem backwards? It's not - because certain styles don't use them. Uh, Mike - it's a 6th tuning. Find me the chromatics on a C6 neck. What it DOES have are E9-like changes on the 6th tuning - simply a compact universal, and very handy.

As far as why other "major" players don't use it, can you tell me why major players don't use Ralph Mooney's tuning? Or Red Rhodes? Or b0b's E13 (or whatever it is) Or Robert Randolph's? Or YOURS?

It's really kind of obvious - the teaching materials aren't there. You have to be willing to learn it on your own and step outside the box. Oh, and make sure you send Tommy Maddox a note telling him he's an unimportant player. And just what IS an important player? Someone who impresses Mike Perlowin? Sorry, mike - but you don't decide what's "valid".

"Are/were Buddy Emmons, Lloyd Green, Paul Franklin, John Hughey, Jimmy Day, J.D. Mamess, Curly Chalker, Hal Rugg etc., all wrong?"

Of course not. and what tuning does Buddy use on his jazz stuff? And Paul Franklin on his rock? Hmmm - looks like a 6th to me, and all we are talking about with B6 is a different version.

Still doesn't have any of those darned chromatics, so I guess it's not valid.

I'm not beating on Mike, really - I know where he's coming from. And he does admit he's a control freak. But this wasn't a discussion of B6 tunings (although it has been *a* subject). It's about Fender guitars being appropriate for beginners. And, I'll say again, with certain qualifications - yes. In MOST cases, no.

But b0b started the discussion and complained that people were being steered wrong - 1) there is no evidence of that - he somehow hallucinated some recommendation and dumped my name into it - and still hasn't really said "gee Jim - you're right, you never DID say that", 2) he has no "seat time" and hasn't much clue of what the things *really* do in various tunings (and remember - you CAN change copedents faster than you can change strings, making them a great platform for experimentation.

In the hands of the right beginner, they can be a great tool. b0b can't determine who those people are, because he has blinders on and as stated numerous times, doesn't have ANY experience with the guitars.

And Mike, any player who wants to play Debussy will not have ANY guitar recommended - they will be sent your email address...by b0b or anyone else with any sense.

Let's see if this post gets deleted too.

[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 30 October 2006 at 09:32 PM.]

And Tim, I don't know who you think was supposedly insulting who - but fact: b0b's inital post was based on his own fabrication.

If YOU think that's something that should not be disagreed with...you need to detach yourself from a leg yourself.

I swear, folks - there apparently an awful lot of people who have never ventured beyond this forum. The "don't say anything that contradicts the moderator" or "negative posts are the sign of a bad boy" stuff would get people wiped off other guitar boards in seconds. If someone is flat wrong in what they say, and can't have it pointed out, no purpose is being served at all.

quote:

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First, "HOW COME NOBODY IS MAKING REPRODUCTIONS OF THEM" - is simply because Fender still owns the tooling,

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Excuse me, but any of todays bulders can make an 8 string 4 pedal no knee lever guitar with 2 pickups and a volume and tone control. If there was a market for such an instrument, there would be one available.

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quote:

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Great minds discuss ideas.
Common minds discuss events.
Small minds discuss people.- Elenor Roosevelt

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Cute quote, Mike. It's a pity so many of us don't have a great mind, like you.

By the way, it's Eleanor, not "Elenor".

And the Fender pedal steels didn't come with 2 pickups unless it was a doubleneck. One pickup per neck.

[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 31 October 2006 at 03:16 AM.]

Just a couple of other comments:

1. Not all beginners on steel are beginner musicians. Many of us are very experienced multi-instrumentalists, and really can figure out what we want to achieve and evaluate the options based on our musical preferences.

2. Mike, without going into a dissertation on economics, I expect nobody's mass producing 8 string pedal steels because they're already full to capacity with waiting lists for the current instruments. And relatively speaking there are enough Fenders to go around. Why make a complete repro '55 Chevy when you can go out and by one already? I don't see anyone mass producing push/pull repros (yes there's Promat but that's not Carter)

Now, let's discuss the Fender 2000 vs modern steels.....

But the E9 tuning was not invented by one person, it is a collaborative effort perfected by years of experimenting by many of the best players in the world at the time: Buddy Emmons, Jimmy Crawford, Jimmy Day, Zane Beck, and countless others. They met and compared notes, and when one of them discovered somthing, he told all the others.

Eventually the tuning boiled down to what it is today.

It amazes me that anybody would come along and say "that's all wrong, you gotta play this other tuning."

Obviously there are other tunings and setups that work, and there are some people who feel more comfortable with some other setup.

But even so, the standard E9 tuning has it all. And I agree with b0b that a beginner is better off with an E9 guitar with 10 or 12 strings, 3 pedals and a minimum of 3 knee levers, preeferably 4 or 5.

I'm sure those old Fenders are very well made and have a great tone, and if somebody wants that sound and is willing to put up woth that instruments limitations, fine.

But learn to play the standard E9 first.

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quote:

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Great minds discuss ideas.
Common minds discuss events.
Small minds discuss people.- Elenor Roosevelt

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quote:

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But learn to play the standard E9 first.

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WHY???

Does someone who wants to play jazz need to learn to play country first? Does someone who wants to play classical need to learn heavy metal first?

I give up.

[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 31 October 2006 at 04:15 AM.]

Sigh. Mike, nobody said THAT either.

l-e-t m-e s-a-y i-t s-l-o-w-l-y.......

For *some* players, who *want* to do it, the 400 *might* be a good choice. Those would be players who have no interest in the tradition "tour" through the Winnie or Scotty books; who like doing things a bit differently; who are interested in the very specific tone of the instrument (a point I think is lost on Mike and b0b) and who don't mind a "do-it-yourself path".

Nobody said E9 is wrong - I SAID is was right for almost everyone. BUT THERE ARE EXCEPTIONS, and they aren't sheer beginners - they are perhaps beginners, but with a different intent than either Mike or b0b can seem to comprehend. They don't WANT to learn what you want to force them to. They have no REASON to be forced to do it. The "normal" steel is not the only "right" approach" - it might come as a shock, but there are people with different perceptions of learning music than how you seem to think.

Will you also declare that Sacred Steelers must start on E9, or they are "wrong" and never get anywhere?

Some people don't give a rat's behind what Buddy, Jimmy, Curly, Lloyd, et al did - it's not in their frame of reference, it never will be, and they don't care. And Mike & b0b should not judge those people unworthy to play the instrument simply because they are not enthralled with the history or players of styles they don't want anything to do with.

You're simply trying to shove a "one size fits all" ideal on the world. It's not right. And, boys, here's an amazing thought - you will NEVER win at this argument, as players will always come along and do things differently. They'll stumble on a thread like this and say "who do THOSE guys think they are, telling me what I HAVE to do"?

If they didn't, you wouldn't have many of the "features" you have today (you can argue "but they're going *backwards*, to an antique! - So? That's innovation if they are playing THEIR music on it).

As far as recommendations to beginners, we are talking a very small percentage of "beginners" as a whole, NONE of them beginners in music. (deep breath) for the zillionth time, MOST players SHOULD start on the so-called "standard" E9.

But not everyone.

And I simply don't think b0b...and Mike...will ever understand that. Nor do I think they WANT to.

Sidebar - and again, Mike, regarding "reproductions" - you used THAT word first, then switched to a generic description. those are two different things. But regaardless, you are talking a very small part of a very small market to begin with. It doesn't make economic sense, which is why Fender has talked about it but never pulled the trigger on the project. As has been stressed all along, we are talking about a small number of players. Another reason you should just leave them alone.

[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 31 October 2006 at 04:16 AM.]

quote:

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Does someone who wants to play classical need to learn heavy metal first?

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Say, anybody wanna roast a baby for Halloween?

[This message was edited by David Mason on 31 October 2006 at 07:50 AM.]

quote:

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I agree with Jerry - if that's the stuff you want to play, the guitar is perfect for it. Tune it to the low-8 of an E9, do the A, B, C pedals and use the 4th to lower the E's and you can play like crazy AND use almost all the basic lesson stuff. And we can sure help you with parts support, service help, etc. - with what you want to do I think it's be a great buy!

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Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog

why didn't you call out the three people that suggested the 400 before Jim did in this thread?

here is the link to the thread that started you on this:http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/013664.html

Jim DID suggest an E9th setup at first, your last cut and paste was misinforming people who didn't follow that thread, just put the link and let them decide for themselves

i'm not in this to argue, but you clearly called Jim out on this personally.
when almost everyone in this entire thread including the person asking for advice seem to agree with him

my 6 cents

i still would buy a fender 400 before i would a carter starter, if i was starting over

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2003 Zum D-10, Peavey Nashville 1000, Peavey Session 500, Session 400, 1954 Fender Custom T-8, Late 60's Fender 400 8x0, 1968 Fender Telecaster, PodXT

[This message was edited by Pat Irvin on 31 October 2006 at 08:43 AM.]

quote:

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"Americana" music (a fancy word for traditional country)

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But then Jim S. and others moved the goal posts and started talking about 6th tunings, or even a "compact universal," and retro playing styles. That's a completely different situation. It is true that a lot of new interest in lap and pedal steel is from rock and roots players interested in retro styles and retro instruments. The old Fenders certainly fit into that scenario. So, many of the arguments above on both sides have been shooting at different targets.

I think we all seem to agree that for E9 and modern country (from the late '50s to the present), 10-string E9 3&4 is the way to go, either in a student model, a used pro model, or a new model.

For retro, I think we probably all agree there is a huge range of used and new stuff out there that can work. A 6- or 8-string lap steel is not a bad place to start. A 6th tuning might be a good idea. Early 8-string pedal steels may be even better. A D8 with a few pedals and maybe even a lever or two give a retro player lots of flexibility for swing, rockabilly, early pedal country, and even country-rock. You can play all of that on a modern single or double-neck pedal steel (student or pro models); but most retro players want the look and the actual old instruments. The old Fenders might be a good choice for a retro player.

quote:

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Does someone who wants to play classical need to learn heavy metal first?

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Excuse me, but what I'm saying is that one should learn the E9 tuning. And in fact, I play both classical and blues rock (but not heavy metal) on that tuning.
But I'll repeat soething I wrote a ong tome ago. I will never perform Winnie Winston;s arrangement of Streets of Larado, but I was able to take what I had learned from the tune and use it to figure out the Jimi Hendrix song "Little Wing."

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quote:

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Great minds discuss ideas.
Common minds discuss events.
Small minds discuss people.- Elenor Roosevelt

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Great quote, Mike. Now, she was a REAL woman!

quote:

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b0b,
you personally called Jim out at the beginning of the this thread

why didn't you call out the three people that suggested the 400 before Jim did in this thread?

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Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog

quote:

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quote: Does someone who wants to play classical need to learn heavy metal first?

Excuse me, but what I'm saying is that one should learn the E9 tuning.

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Well excuse me, Lord Perlowin. Yes, I know that's what you're saying. And I and some others are still asking WHY? Just because you so decree?

I agree E9 is a useful tuning. One that you'd better know if you want to play country with Nashville stars or wannabees. But a lot of guys don't want to play that stuff and by the way all the great steelers played their C6, E13, etc. first even before the E9 was developed and they did alright. What is the problem with letting someone who isn't interested in E9 learn whatever tuning they want, and if and when they want to learn E9, they will?

quote:

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And in fact, I play both classical and blues rock (but not heavy metal) on that tuning.

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Many of us play more than one style of music on all kinds of tunings.

quote:

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But I'll repeat soething I wrote a ong tome ago.

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Oh, please do.

quote:

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I will never perform Winnie Winston;s arrangement of Streets of Larado, but I was able to take what I had learned from the tune and use it to figure out the Jimi Hendrix song "Little Wing."

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You could have just as well learned any other song from any other kind of music and applied that knowledge to "Little Wing" or anything else.

What makes you think learning Streets of Laredo and applying that knowledge to what you really want to play is better than learning what you really want to play in the first place?

quote:

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quote: Great minds discuss ideas.
Common minds discuss events.
Small minds discuss people.- Elenor Roosevelt

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Still misspelling Eleanor.

Here's one for you from me:

quote:

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Great minds accept viewpoints other than their own.

Common minds try to understand more than their own point of view but find it difficult.

Small minds stubbornly refuse to consider anything other than their own point of view.

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[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 31 October 2006 at 10:30 AM.]

I hope you realise that you just proved her point.

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quote:

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Great minds discuss ideas.
Common minds discuss events.
Small minds discuss people.- Eleanor Roosevelt

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[This message was edited by Mike Perlowin on 31 October 2006 at 10:58 AM.]

It would seem by your criteria, your last post would prove her point even better, as you have directly referred to ME.

I guess then that we're ALL "small minds", since b0b referred to his wife and kids earlier, almost all of us have referred to other steelers, friends or family at one time or another... you don't even understand the quote.

Perlowin, with all due respect to your musicianship, you are seriously full of it.

[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 31 October 2006 at 11:22 AM.]