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Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog

I can maybe understand starting out someone on a 400 with E9 if they can borrow one or get one cheap, but realize that they should move to something with a 3x2 setup at the minimum as soon as possible.

Also most people starting out are on a budget. I believe if you start with a 400 (which can be had for less money than a starter quite often), learn the AB and C pedals of it(pun intended). Maybe spend a little money, if you want, and add some knees to it when you are ready(which is pretty inexpensive and can be done fairly easy). Now you have a pretty cool retro steel that would be easy to sell(and probably not lose money on) once you felt the need to move on to a Professional Model.

When I got my first Zum I loaned my carter starter out to a few people and none of them liked playing it for the same reason I didn't. I'm not running the Carter down, I'm just saying to "some" of us it can detramental to learning. Now one of those folks test drove another steel that wasn't a Carter Starter and now is hooked on steel and has since purchased a Professional Steel. I'm positive that if I would have had a Fender to loan him instead of the Carter Starter, he would have jumped on the Steel Guitar Bandwagon a long time ago and would not have had the "bad taste in his mouth" from giving up because of the Starter.

I sure wish I could play my 20 strings, 8 pedals and 5 knees a 1/3rd as good on as Mooney, Day, and Chalker did on those old 8 string fenders.

my 2 cents

[This message was edited by Pat Irvin on 27 October 2006 at 01:30 PM.]

If only I had more strings
If only I had better strings
If only I had more pedals
If only I had more knee levers
If only I had a better amp
If only I had a better guitar
If only I had more necks
If only I had a better pickup
If only I had more pickups
If only I had a better volume pedal
If only I had a better speaker
If only I had a better bar
If only I had better picks
If only I had a better reverb

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah...

IF ONLY!

(If only any of the above would make you a better musician.)

But if you're going for a modern contemporary sound, get 10 strings, 3 x 4.

DZ

[This message was edited by Dave Zirbel on 27 October 2006 at 02:03 PM.]

This would be a valid point - except that's complete BS.

I do not recommend beginners grab a 400 to start on *unless* they plan on playing completely outside the "norm" and don't mind blazing their own trail. I have normally recommended a 10 string, E9 3+4 as the minimum for a country beginner.

So lets get the facts straight before you start a thread slamming me for something I didn't say...at least without qualifying the statements.

OTOH, you're WAY off base on Sneaky's guitar as well. Name the modifications, b0b. Oh - knee levers? What else? When did you last play a guitar set up that way? Never? Oh.....

The two knee levers are irrelevant - he didn't add those until the 70's - the early Burritos and a lot of his studio work was done without them.

The 9th pedal was never used, period.

The ONLY mods that would be significant are the addition of two barrel tuners and associated brackets to allow double raises on two strings.

The electronics (pickups, knobs, tone devices, etc.) have nothing to do with playability/mechanics.

So the "heavily modified guitar" you keep harping on has the same parts (a whole 2 of them!) many modern steels use, which are readily available and take approximately 20 minutes to install.

Ed's 400 knowledge, and his experience with B6, has taught many of us just WHAT it is - a superb Universal tuning. Compact, linear and easy to follow, with a wide sonic range. And Sneaky's 1 & 2 pedals are essentially your A&B pedals - the building block for 90% of what's played on E9 pedal steel. But want to go "C6"? Switch to pedals 5 & 6.

Honestly, if you haven't played it the light really doesn't go "on". That's been the experience of several people, who simply assume any 8-string tuning on an old guitar is limited and unplayable. Until they spend some time with it and find the nuances and the breadth of it.

The 4-pedal models are obviously limited...but we could take one, tune it to B6 and use the 1, 2, 4 and 7 pedals of Sneaky's copedent and play it all day long. Majors, minors, "pedal mashing". "Mooney" pedal, Clarence White tricks...I'd like to find one just to do the minimalist approach at times.

But I want to get this straight once and for all - I do not and did not recommend it for beginners without very specific qualifications. For 90% of them it's the wrong choice. But for those taking a different path, it's a great tool.

Mechanically there are also all kinds of misconceptions - "they play stiff"; there's no sustain; they sound tinny. If a 400/1000/8000/2000 has those problems it's simply not set up right. The sound is inherently fat like a Strat on the middle pickup and the tone control rolled off a bit - if it's thin, adjust the pickup height and listen to find the "sweet spot". Sustain is also affected by pickup height, string attachment, bridge adjustment and several other factors; but while they certainly don't sustain like some modern steels, they will get darned close when set up right. And they can very simply be "unstiffened" by using different springs on the changer, a simple job. You can have a 400 play as quick and smooth as everything else if you adjust and lube it correctly. It's not rocket science.

Two great *advantages* - 1) they have NO cabinet drop. None. 2) You can change copedents in minutes. One of the easiest things to do in the steel world. It's harder to *tune* most steels than change a 400 copedent.

The main point is, the 400 is a perfectly valid, usable and complete musical tool. It's not very suitable for "modern country music", but what some people just don't get is that most 400 players don't listen to, play or give a hoot about modern country music.

There ARE other paths to take, and they are not wrong...just different. Live with it.

We have a great group of cable-heads on this forum. We talk ona and off line; trade parts, trade stories, fix each other's guitars; and every one of us gets a laugh (and used to feel insulted - now we pity the poor guy who doesn't *get* it) when we are told we are playing inferior tools and we just don't measure up.

I'm setting up my GFI Ultra 3+4 in B6 with the same changes and then some.

I assume that validates me? Or am I using the wrong tuning to be a club member? Drat, I guess I'll just never get it right.

;-)

I don't know why you felt compelled to start this thread b0b - we're well aware of your dislike for these guitars. So I thank you for opening the discussion, since it allowed us the opportunity to explain how wrong the misconceptions are - and also for me to ask you not to put words in mouth and try to get forum members to believe I would intentionally steer players the wrong way. On that entire point you are simply flat wrong.

"But it is virtually impossible to develop a complete musical vocabulary within the confines of 8 strings, 4 pedals"

I'll add - on this point you are correct. And I've never said otherwise. Your whole post is misleading and offensive.

[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 27 October 2006 at 04:14 PM.]

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Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog

Why didn't that happen with the violin?

I listen, at steel shows, and to all kinds of recordings that use pedal steel.

What glares most (to me, anyway) both in my own playing, and that of most others, is not an equipment shortcoming, but more often...a poor technique, a tuning problem, an intonation problem while playing, a lack of imagination, bad timing, poor bar control, improper volume pedal technique, wrong chords, choppy lines, irregular dynamics, lack of variety, little sense of style, and so many other things that just deter from the "musicality" (for lack of a better term) of what we're doing.

Yeah, we've got a gazillion more chords and voicings, far better (more complex and reliable) steels and amps, and (presumably) a lot more players and steels than we've ever had!

So then (rhetorically, if you wish), why have we (collectively) as steelers made so few inroads? Why are we not accepted any better (by other musicians and the public) than we were 40 years ago? Are we making vastly better music now than we did in the '60s?

By all accounts, we certainly should be.

Oh well, something to think about, anyway.

pedal 1 raises E's to F(F knee lever)
pedal 2 raises B's to C#(A pedal)
pedal 3 raises G#'s to A(B pedal)
pedal 4 lowers E's to Eb(D knee lever=B6)
pedal 5 lowers D# to D(dominat 7th)
pedal 6 lowers G#'s to G(Tonic Minor chords)
pedal 7 lowers B's to Bb(b5 chords)
pedal 8 raises F# to G#

F#
D#
G#
E
B
G#
F#
E

i really like it cause i can get my AF and BD
combos like i do with my modern knees. No C pedal but there is a world of combos that work great for me.

I can just use 1st 4 pedals for pretty much any gig.

But tonite i'm taking my push-pull uni12.

funny thing is.......my 400 and this uni12 are probably 10 years or less apart....and neither is modern.......i have those kind too, but they are too easy to play and never break......speaking of antiquated.........my rick B6 plus a tubescreamer and a blackface reverb will tear your head clean off........but they probably weren't thinking that in 1937.

[This message was edited by Rand Anderson on 27 October 2006 at 06:58 PM.]

I grew up wanting to try Sneaky's B6 but I was a guitar player and didn't want to relearn all what I could already play on my E9. The B6 is so much easier for me to understand and the "corn pedals" on the 6th tuning as Ed calls them makes more sense.

You actually started off this thread accusing me of making recommendations I've never madem - IMO you have some wild-haired idea that I'm shoving a 400 up everyone's behind, saying "play it or else".

I haven't noticed that being corrected yet, sir. Fix it.

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But it is virtually impossible to develop a complete musical vocabulary within the confines of 8 strings, 4 pedals and no knee levers.

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If you learn without knee levers, or without enough strings, you always fall back into those comfortable ruts in your playing.

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They get sold and resold in the beginners market, over and over, because people can't learn on them.

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i’ve come to realize that the "chromatics" are not really necessary and are the source of a lot of cliche licks i hear.

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It just doesn't make sense to box yourself into a subset of music from the get-go.

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Every time someone comes close to getting really good at the instrument, we (I? They?) add a little more, make changes, and proclaim it's now "better".... Why didn't that happen with the violin?

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What glares most (to me, anyway) both in my own playing, and that of most others, is not an equipment shortcoming, but more often... a poor technique, a tuning problem, an intonation problem while playing, a lack of imagination, bad timing, poor bar control, improper volume pedal technique, wrong chords, choppy lines, irregular dynamics, lack of variety, little sense of style, and so many other things that just deter from the "musicality" (for lack of a better term) of what we're doing.

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Personally, I have to think it WOULD make a good beginner steel as it would force you to play the guitar more with the bar and strings and LESS with pedals and knees... IMHO that is the correct way to play steel... I am disgusted at my lack of string and bar knowledge... I have used lots of pedals.knees, chromatic strings as a crutch for 30 years,,, I think it might take longer to be a good steel player starting on a Fender, but I would imagine you could wind up a better player.... bob

[This message was edited by Bob Carlucci on 28 October 2006 at 07:23 AM.]

So what's my opinion on the "what to start with" question? I'd probably point someone towards a standard 3x4 if they were a hard-core country junkie. If not, I'd tell them to get whatever speaks to them.

Hopefully my brother Aaron (curently playing my old Fender with his own E9 setup) will weigh in on this.

Folks, enjoy those steels. They're still cheaper than therapy! N.

You don't HAVE TO use the top 2 strings if you don't want. But if you do want to, and they're not there, you too will be frustrated.

When it came time to buy one, I got a single 12 that originally came with 7 and 4, correctly thinking that I'd grow into the guitar, and that as I leanred more, the guitar would be able to accomodate me.

I'm still not using everything on my guitar. but I'm also still learning new things, and whatever idea I get, the 12 string U-12 is able to handle it

I say when it comes to things like knee levers, extra strings etc., it's better to have stuff that you don't need, than to need stuff that you don't have.

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Warning: I have a Telecaster and I'm not afraid to use it.
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My web site

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I agree with Jerry - if that's the stuff you want to play, the guitar is perfect for it. Tune it to the low-8 of an E9, do the A, B, C pedals and use the 4th to lower the E's and you can play like crazy AND use almost all the basic lesson stuff. And we can sure help you with parts support, service help, etc. - with what you want to do I think it's be a great buy!

Let me add - if you decide to add more pedals, that's a piece of cake. And even knee levers are not tough. These are indestructible, great sounding guitars that are a breeze to work on.

C'mon, buy it - we need another "overseas" club member!

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Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog

You certainly did, because you took it COMPLETELY out of context, and in the process tried to make me look like a fool.

You also seem to neglect, repeatedly, that many of us are not recommending or using E9 with these guitars, so your E9/knee lever comments are irrelevant again. I do not know why you seem to miss this criical point. But have you ever thought that with just the 4-pedal version (which most of us don't use) you can have an A,B,C setup - and use #4 for the lower? Oh, Lord - you have to take your foot OFF the volume pedal? Poor Ralph Mooney must play like crap.

The player in that thread was not the typical beginner; his musical direction was the stuff a 400 is perfectly suited for; in the context it would be a great guitar for him, and for whatHE wanted to do there is a whole lot of support from the other Fender guys on the forum.

"I say when it comes to things like knee levers, extra strings etc., it's better to have stuff that you don't need, than to need stuff that you don't have."

Mike and I have had this discussion before...it's evolved to a friendly one, which I enjoy. I also disagee with him. I think the more junk you add the more things you have that can go worng, throw the guitar out of tune. and more mechanics will absolutely affect tone. And when you get so much junk that you need "compensators", you've simmply exposed the bad engineering of an instrument OR you've put so musch crap on it you've defeated yourself.

Also, you have to atke into account the musical direction of the player. If the guy wants to play 60's/70's country rock, he'll NEVER need all that stuff, ever.

Those who play a 400 in one of the wo E9 versions - top-8 or bottom-8 - will find limitations, unless they play retro stuff exclusively. It's up to them whther those limitations have meaning or not, though. some could not care less, as the advantages - volume and tone controls, ease of service, playability (i.e. string spacing), and tone - outweigh the lack of chromatics/bottom strings (depending on which wayyou go).

OTOH, those who have spent some time with the crazy B6 Sneaky developed have found it to have almost NO limitations. You may lack chromatics, but those have become so cliched many players are backing of of using them from what I read....and there are things you can do on that copedent that are not on an E9 (or very difficult to duplicate), no matter how many gadgets you bolt on.

My 10 string version on my Ultra wont be a setupto overcome"diadvantages" - it will just be a different way of playing the same thing with a slightly expanded low end (which will probably crack concrete!). having the same things at a knee rather than doing the "pedal dance" will be a fun experiment, and if mine works out I bet a few other will give it a shot just for fun...who knows how far it will go? If a GOOD player gets hold of it, it might be real interesting!

[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 28 October 2006 at 10:25 AM.]

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...and was frustrated because I had musical ideas that my guitar would not let me play.

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And, it will probably always be that way, Mike. It was the same with me, too. There's always just one more inversion, one more chord, one more pedal, one more "gimmick" we think we really need. Instead of getting frustrated, though, about what we don't have, we should learn to do the most we can with what we already have. Ever seen a great steeler sit down at someone's "limited" gear and flat amaze you (and everyone else in attendance)? Let me tell you, it's both a humbling and inspiring experience!

My current U-12 setup (7 pedals, 6 knee levers and a wrist lever) yeilds any and everything I could ever possibly want. Whatever musical ideas I have, I can find them somewhere on my guitar. I do not, and probably never will need any kind of pedal or knee lever that I don't already have.

I understand that a lot of people feel that one more knee lever or a different color thumb pick will suddenly solve all their problems. I think that's only true when your guitar doesn't have the minimum essential changes. The music is all there on the guitar with the stadard changes, you just have to find it all.

But I also feel we need those standard changes. And yes, you can get around without them, but it's better to have them all. And a beginner who needs all the help he/she can get expecially needs them.

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Warning: I have a Telecaster and I'm not afraid to use it.
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My web site

And what ARE those?

E9 has a "standard" 3 pedals, and fairly standard 2 knees...the other knees seem to vary quite a bit. Of the several 3+4 E9 guitars I've had, none of the manufacturers had the same recommended knee lever copedent.

My point - if you're going to push that a guitar has to meet minimum "standards", first you have to estabish those - and no one seems to be able to do that.

E9 is sort of a Standard" tuning. But then Mike advocates a universal - and there it gets even more complicated as to "standards".

The daunting task to a beginner - say a "normal" one, unlike me - who hears country pedal steel and wants to play one is deciphering the answers to "What should I get?" If you call a pedal steel store or walk in to by a guitar and say you want to buy a "pedal steel", you could end up with anything. and to refin WHAT you want, you have to KNOW what you want - which is almost impossible as the industry stands today, as there are no standards, even for a simple 3+4 E9.

If the industry could halfway organize itself and create a "standard model" copedent, it would make it easier to buy, sell, and teach. Even beginning teaching materials are goofy, as they use THAT teacher's copedent, which may not be on YOUR guitar. It's a small industry - why it's never created a standardization committee among the makers is baffling, unless there's a lot of bad blood, or hardheaded guys who insist they will only do it their way....

"i am not a fan of listing equipment owned in a signature as i believe it distracts from this point"

True dat! It always seemed like people comparing sizes of body parts or something....

[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 28 October 2006 at 12:18 PM.]

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E9 has a "standard" 3 pedals, and fairly standard 2 knees...the other knees seem to vary quite a bit. Of the several 3+4 E9 guitars I've had, none of the manufacturers had the same recommended knee lever copedent.

My point - if you're going to push that a guitar has to meet minimum "standards", first you have to estabish those - and no one seems to be able to do that.

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After I am elected supreme ruler of the entire universe, my first edict will be that all E9 pedal steels have 3 pedals and 5 knee levers. E to Eb, E to F, B to Bb, F# to G (natural) and 2nd/9th string lower to C#,

Seriously, there is no objective correct knee lever placement. It's strictly a matter of personal preference. I have my E-F rais on my LKL and me E-Eb lower on my LKR. J.D. has his set up just the opposite. Joe Wright has his E raises and lowers on his right knee, and Paul Franklin has one on each knee.

Who's right? I am not fit to wipe the dirt off of any of those guy's shoes, but my setup is right for me.

As long as people have differnent preferences, there will be different setups. But the changes themselves, regardless of which lever they are on are standard changes, or at least should be.

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Warning: I have a Telecaster and I'm not afraid to use it.
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My web site

I don't get this discussion at all. If an 8 string 4 pedal instrument is limited, nobody told Speedy, Joaquin, Bud and many more. Some (horror!) managed with no pedals at all. And that's the style I aspire to.

Mechanically the Fender is so simple. I added two pedals in an hour. Easy. Dismantle, the changer, clean, lube - 30 mins with a coffee break in the middle. Replace a pickup, the 3 way switch and tone pit - 30 mins max.

I'd like to comment on the perceived lack of chord options too. For 6 string guitar I'd compare Freddy Green with Joe Pass. I think in a band context 3 or 4 string chords are enough (assuming you have a piano, steel, horns etc as well) for my chosen music styles. When I've depped 6 string with more modern acts, they LOVE the simplicity with depth of that style. Why do we need to play every note of a chord? Genuine question there. Choose your notes wisely.... For solo work fair enough - you may well need the options a modern E9 setup gives.

So, to other beginners, my VERY humble opinion. If you want to play Western Swing but want more options than a lap steel gives, a Fender 400/1000 is a very viable option. Look seriously at the Fender A6 setup, it's surprisingly complete for this stuff. If you want to play chart style modern country, you obviously need the same instrument as those players use. If you're half way in between and want to play early country, it's up to you!

Whatever you do, any steel is a great, challenging, complex and rewarding instrument. Enjoy!

You've been told what the makers of new steels want you to hear.

They are without a doubt one of the most durable lines ever made - which id why the ones you see for sale are not in mint condition - because they've been played.

1. there are no mechanical "issues" at all that I'm aware of.
2. String breakage (a problem sometimes found on the loder long-scale models, never on the short-scale ones) has been essentially eliminated through the use of proper setup (i.e. burr removal), proper lube(I find Teflon works best) or minor modifications - Fenders aftermarket roller bridge or rolling "shims". But ALL the breakage broblems seem to be inherent to E9 tuning, which many of us don' even use, so it's not an issue. However, I can say I played my 1000 with one neck in E9 for almost 6 months, every day, 100% stock, with no breakage at all. If you know how to set up an instrument it's not a problem.
3. Playability - this is simply a matter of choice, some folks like the positive feel of stock springs, others like a lighter touch. It's not much different than other guitars, except nowdays you're given instructions how to alter the "feel". Fender didn't do that. So many of us have simply experimented with springs and "de-stiffened" the lowers. Raises are a bit more involved, but adding helper springs is no more (in fact less) instrusive than "compensators" and other such junk that is needed by MODERN steels.
4. Most important - YOU DIDN'T READ THE WHOLE THREAD. Personally, I have NEVER recommended (nor would I) a 400 or 1000 to a beginner EXCEPT under cetian circumstances - i.e. he's not inerested in modern country, he's looking for a different path to take, he's independent, he prefers great tone and the controls that go with it over one locked-in sound, and he has some prior musical experience. THOSE "beginners" are brought into the loop and helped (as I was) along the way by the other Fender players on the forum.

So you missed the context - the whole thread was predicated on b0b's accusing me of doing something that NEVER happened.

The ONLY drawback and limitation is the single raise and lower, BUT the hallowed P/P Emmons has also that limitation and workarounds are an accepted thing with those guitars so why slate the necessity to do the same on a Fender ? and in the same breath accept the 'Mods" that are done of necessity on an Emmons ?

One point not addressed is the requirement to be careful and not 'MASH' the pedals, as seems to be the accepted terminology for a heavy handed foot !!
The Fender hasn't got pull rod stops on the "Bell Crank" so it needs a gentle touch or you could pull the soldered joints apart on the ends of the cables. (The ONLY fault that should be worked out and corrected)

Another point, why the animosity from 'Non Fender ' players... and how would they know ?

Over the years my Fender 1000 has brought me over $250,000 in record royalties and although my Emmons supported me from 1970 to 2001 with band work and all the sessions I could handle, I far prefer to play the Fender, and do so more and more.

I say that the Fender 400, 1000 (in the Mk2 Form) is an excellent steel guitar for most pedal styles, BUT the 800 or 2000 would be the preferred choice if using the E9th standard set up (As Jim said, If there is such a thing)

There is a proliference of woodshed and bedroom 'Experts' expounding the merits of the 12 string Universal or one brand of guitar or another, the 'Bread and Butter' pedals steels are not the ones sitting in someone's music room but the ones out on the road earning REAL money for their owners, the Fender is built like a 'Brick Built Sh*t House" and as such has a LOOO........OONG sell by date.
At a guess I'd say Fender, Emmons and Sho Bud are probably the ones that have the best return on outlay.
And in that order.

This comment, Chip, took your post right to the heart of b0b's entire misconstrued reason for the thread, which was that these guitars are being recommended by me to beginners. The "beginner" issue was dead long before your post.

I don't see how you can be interpreted any other way, and it makes it appears as if you had not read the entire thread. I called it BS because it absolutely appeared to be reinforcing b0b's original idea, which had been discarded as out-of-context many posts before.

As far as the E9 comments - the point there is that while E9 WAS a fairly common tuning for these guitars, they seem to be more apt to be used in other ways now - B6 (very common), Fender's published A6 (a really fun tuning, by the way), as a "Stringmaster with pedals"...the primary E9 users are doing it for certain retro sounds, and if you read my post closely again, the "problems" don't exist with a well set-up guitar. If it's NOT set up well, or is missing the essential "hog rings", then you can use the aftermarket parts. Either way, the problem is pretty much gone - at least it's no worse than on any other steel.

I don't know how much experience you've had with these guitars, but we've found a pretty consistent trend - naysayers generally are repeating stuff they've read, and have either never owned one or never played one for more than a couple of minutes, if at all.

It's pretty hard to competently diss a guitar's functionality that you have zero seat time with. Repeating "I've heard that" or "people tell me" doesn't really build credibility unless it reinforces personal experience.

[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 28 October 2006 at 09:06 PM.]

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If you play 'em, play 'em good!
If you build 'em, build 'em good!
http://www.bobbybowman.com

b0b, here's a thought for you. when you get those emails, refer them (or even if you get phone calls, just forward the phone number) to somebody who knows the guitar and can ask the right questions about whether the player asking is "equipped" for one, or whether they'd be better off on a traditional guitar. I'd be happy to deal with those for you, as I'm sure Russ Tcak would be, or Baz. ebb as well, but Ed hates to type (grin)!

I'm serious - 90% of the people asking would likely be steered to an E9 3+4 minimum setup, but some - like the guy who posted the question that apparently got you all riled up - are well suited, and we could give them the ins, outs and *resources* they need to know about.

That way, since you are really quite unfamiliar with the guitars and the setups/mods used on them, you would not waste your time - and the person asking would get a qualified response.

I think it makes perfect sense - hopefully you'll consider it.

Sidebar - Baz, your post was absolutely stunning and right on the mark. Having a Mark I 1000 and Mark II 400, (I've never used those terms, but they are perfect!) I agree completely. And I''ll add that while Sneaky's 400 is a Mark I, I by chance ended up with a Mark II instead - so mine is the same, but different, and much more modern in feel than even a modded Mark I.