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Author
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Topic: Do All Emmon's Push Pull have "that sound?"
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George Kimery
Member From: Limestone, TN, USA
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posted 08 June 2003 06:36 PM
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I started out in 1969 with a 1968 Emmons Push Pull. Didn't know what I had, so looking back, I foolishly sold it. Still remember that sound though. If I were to buy another Emmons Push Pull with an original pick-up, what are the chances that it would have "that sound" and sustain? Would 10 or 12 string matter? What about single neck vs. double neck? What about a single neck on a double frame? Does any of these factors play into the sound? I know.... before anybody says it, it's gotta be black!..... yeah, right if you say so. Do I just have to hear the guitar to know or can I just assume it will have "that Emmons PP sound"if I buy one without trying it out? |
Earnest Bovine
Member From: Los Angeles CA USA
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posted 08 June 2003 06:38 PM
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Mine didn't. |
Larry Bell
Member From: Englewood, Florida
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posted 08 June 2003 06:44 PM
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Like all guitars, there are some that are better than others. I have never personally played one that I wouldn't be happy to play gigs on, but I understand that some folks have. I've probably played at least 20 or 30 different push-pulls over the past 30 years and most were dynamite sounding guitars. Many were badly out of adjustment. I think there's more tone in that design than any other ever manufactured, but not all of them are equal.I play a push-pull 12-string and it's the best sounding 12-string I've ever played. Your mileage may vary. ------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps
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C Dixon
Member From: Duluth, GA USA
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posted 08 June 2003 07:51 PM
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Mine didn't either.]carl |
Rex Thomas
Member From: Thompson's Station, TN
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posted 08 June 2003 07:53 PM
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Nor did mine. Close, though. |
Tom Vollmer
Member From: Hamburg, Pennsylvania, USA
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posted 08 June 2003 07:57 PM
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I am on my third black push pull Emmons since 1965 and have not heard any other steel that sounds better.A push pull Emmons thru a Webb or Evans amp is unbeatable in my rating. |
Wayne Cox
Member From: Chatham, Louisiana, USA
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posted 08 June 2003 08:59 PM
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Like so many steel players,I too wanted "that sound". And, like many,I played several PP's that were for sale,in hopes of finding one with THE SOUND but none of them had it. For a while I simply convinced myself that it was just me;that I simply didn't have the right touch...then one day I sat down at one that had IT. Of course it wasn't for sale and the owner wouldn't even consider parting with it. Such has been my luck. But I can say that there have also been some modern All-Pull Emmons steels made which also have "that sound". A good friend,and fellow Forumite,RON PRESTON,has one. Ron was a former Emmons employee,and made sure that the most meticulous care possible was put into the building of his personal instrument. The extra work and care paid off for him in "Tone to the bone." I would call RON a lucky son-of-a-gun,but luck had little to do with it. Sometimes hard work can do an awful lot to compensate for luck. Most any steel guitar manufacturer will tell you,though, that no matter how hard they try to be consistent in the manufacturing process,some instruments simply sound better than others. There are simply too many uncontrolable variables,such as wood grain,even in a plywood body. I guess thats what makes an instrument such a personal thing;they are all different,just like us!
~~W.C.~~ |
Brett Cookingham
Member From: Sherman Oaks CA
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posted 08 June 2003 09:07 PM
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Why do I bother?[This message was edited by Brett Cookingham on 08 June 2003 at 10:29 PM.] |
Dave Horch
Member From: Frederick, Maryland, USA
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posted 08 June 2003 09:48 PM
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My experience at a somewhat local steel shop which has lots of Emmons P/P's is that you need to play it to make yourself happy, or not. Get your hands on the guitar.While I was there one day for a lesson, a guy came into the shop to buy a p/p, and played several ones that he thought he might like. He found one that he loved. He said, "This one's GOT IT all the way up the neck!!". He traveled a long distance to play the guitars, and he left with a "good one", in his opinion, and so he's happy. IMO/ check it out in person. Best, -Dave[This message was edited by Dave Horch on 08 June 2003 at 09:52 PM.] |
Bobby Lee
Sysop From: Cloverdale, North California, USA
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posted 08 June 2003 10:35 PM
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What is "that sound"??? |
Tony Prior
Member From: Charlotte NC
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posted 09 June 2003 03:48 AM
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nob0b, are you starting one of those write the song threads? "You gotta stop children' What's that sound... Everybody look whats goin' down...."
I think Stephen already wrote it..
but I could be wrong...
tp ( not Tony Palmer ) 
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Frank Parish
Member From: Nashville,Tn. USA
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posted 09 June 2003 05:13 AM
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"That sound" can only be found on the old Emmons p/p guitars to put it plainly. I went through the all pull thing thinking I wanted a newer more modern guitar and after about 5 different guitars and no telling how much money I'm back to playing the Emmons p/p. The all pull players who haven't played one to really get that sound in their head don't realize what they're missing. Kind of like never having glasses and needing them and when you do get them you suddenly see the difference. They all don't have that distinctive sound but most do that I've played. The thing about it is with the right mechanic you can make a p/p do just about everything any all pull guitar can do. It may not drop the 6th string down 2 1/2 tones but it pretty much covers the bases for anything out there. I learned my lesson the hard way and I won't be without one from now on. |
David Mason
Member From: Cambridge, MD, USA
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posted 09 June 2003 05:32 AM
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Bobby - "that sound" has to be a specific emphasis of certain tones and overtones that make a steel sound like what is commonly defined as "great tone" - what else could it be? The Buddy-God has said he thinks that the overall weight of a steel has a lot to do with tone, not a good point for those of us in the Save-Our-Spine Coalition. |
Ole Dantoft
Member From: Copenhagen, Denmark
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posted 09 June 2003 06:47 AM
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quote:
It may not drop the 6th string down 2 1/2 tones but it ....
Frank,
The great BLACK  p/p you sold me HAD that change on it when I got it and still has and it works flawlessly !------------------
Ole My homepage ! |
C Dixon
Member From: Duluth, GA USA
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posted 09 June 2003 07:03 AM
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"That sound" can be heard on Buddy Emmons black album and the two set album made at the ISGC in 1977. Pay particular attention to Blue Jade and Mansion on the Hill. Aslo listen to the first few bars of "Once Upon a Time in the West". Sure much of this sound is from Buddy, but a great deal is from those incredible P/P's. NO other sound in the world can touch it in my opinion. My P/P did NOT have it, UNTIL I changed PU's after I had sold it before shipping it. Broke my heart. So from 1969 til1 1988 it did not have it. The last day I owned it I found out what everyone was alking about. I wanted to back out of the deal. But a deal ia a deal. The next time I heard it was a student bought a single neck P/P. And the moment I hit the first note, there it was. The best way and the only way I know how to describe it is, "It is a bell like sound" and one perceives it could sustain forever, carl |
David Doggett
Member From: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA
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posted 09 June 2003 07:36 AM
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Carl, what was the pickup that gave yours that sound? And what was the pickup that didn't? I'm asking because I am fixing up a beautiful red Emmons p/p S12 and am about to get a new pickup for it. The old single coil one that came on it is just too noisy on the sustains. |
BobbeSeymour
Member From: Hendersonville TN USA
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posted 09 June 2003 07:55 AM
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There is no reason that ANY P-P Emmons can't have "That Sound". And it's not the pickup. Bobbe[This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 11 June 2003 at 06:17 PM.] |
Pat Burns
Member From: Branchville, N.J. USA
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posted 09 June 2003 08:20 AM
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...Tom Vollmer!!! I never thought I'd see the day...what happened, did an airplane fly over and drop a computer on your house!Welcome to the forum. I no longer own the S-10 p/p that you worked on for me...it needed work, but boy did it have That Sound...I just bought an 8 & 7 rosewood p/p from Buck Dilly, and it definately has That Sound, especially with the Vibrosonic Reberb with EVM that I also just got...it is a beautiful musical instrument... |
Peter
Member From: Cape Town, South Africa
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posted 09 June 2003 11:24 AM
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So, according to BS, ALL Emmons guitars have "that sound", but some of them have lost it. And BS knows how to put it back. Did I get that right?
Bobbe, how much do you charge to put it back?
And are there any guarantees?------------------
Peter den Hartogh-Fender Artist S10-Remington U12-Hilton Volume Pedal-Gibson BR4 lapsteel-Guya "Stringmaster" Copy-MusicMan112RP-Peavy Rage158- - My Animation College in South Africa |
C Dixon
Member From: Duluth, GA USA
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posted 09 June 2003 12:05 PM
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Dear Bobbe,I love you man, but I am telling you that my '69 P/P did not have the sound. On the last day I owned it I decided to put a set of PU's in that I had laying around for a long time. The originals were 14.5K. The ones I installed were 19K. Both single coil Emmons' PU's. I never dreamed that I could have the sound by simply replacing the PU's. So needless to say I could have kicked myself for not trying it years earlier. The difference was so dramatic, I could not believe it. I wanted soooo NOT to go thru with the sale. But my heart would not let me back out. The person who got that guitar had a dandy, believe me. God bless you all, carl[This message was edited by C Dixon on 09 June 2003 at 12:06 PM.] |
Johnny Cox
Member From: The great state of Texas
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posted 09 June 2003 12:49 PM
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Buddy Emmons told me several years ago that not ever push pull he had played had "That Sound". Most of "That Sound" that is so frequently spoke of is Buddy. I have had so many people tell me: I got a push pull with the sound. I went and listened and guess what, NOT. Granted, the sound of the black album was a wonderful sound but only Buddy Emmons can reproduce that sound. I have heard some great sounding PPs, I have also heard some real dogs. I personally owned a PP that was a late 60s. I sold it and bought my first Zumsteel. The Zum came closer to "That Sound" than my Emmons. With that knowedge,it appears to me that had the Emmons company known all the tweaks needed to get "That Sound" they would have done that at the factory as apposed to sharing those matters with a outside repair person to have the guitar corrected 30 to 35 years after it was built.
Just my opinion. Johnny |
Bruce W Heffner
Member From: Hamburg, Pa.
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posted 09 June 2003 12:54 PM
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I took a push pull in trade about a 1 1/2 years ago and promptly took it to Tommy Vollmer for a set up so that I could off the beast ASAP. When TV was done with the guitar, he suggested that I play it for a few minutes. The guitar is now in my personal inventory, along with 3 others that I have since aquired. They all sound different; however, they all sound great! As my long time friend and mentor TV states, there is nothing more awesome then a push pull through a Webb or an Evans. Lastly, all of the ones TV and I have had or worked on, had the sound, even the one TV and I are currently working on that had the E9 pick up flopping around with the wiring wrapped to the output jack and a set of rusty strings. ------------------ www.pedalsteel.net [This message was edited by Bruce W Heffner on 09 June 2003 at 12:57 PM.] [This message was edited by Bruce W Heffner on 09 June 2003 at 01:01 PM.] |
Bruce Derr
Member From: Lee, New Hampshire, USA
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posted 09 June 2003 01:03 PM
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I believe I heard Buddy say many years ago (late '70s) that he could hear the difference between a good-sounding Emmons guitar and a great-sounding Emmons guitar by picking the open strings with the guitar unplugged (no amp). |
Larry Bell
Member From: Englewood, Florida
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posted 09 June 2003 01:08 PM
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quote:
there is nothing more awesome then a push pull through a Webb or an Evans
Yeah, there is, Bruce: a push-pull through an old Standel -- or, even better, through a pair of old Standels in stereo. I know it makes MY socks go up and down. ------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps
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Rick Tyson
Member From: Ohio
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posted 09 June 2003 01:34 PM
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When I bought my Black Emmons from Steve Byam who played for Trace Adkins, it was sight & sound unseen until it came off the UPS truck in my driveway. It was used to record "Thinking Thing" from what I had herd so did it have that sound? Yes What a relief. My Carter has that sound too. I suspect I own one of the first Carter TBCs if not the first one Carter made, think Ill check with John some time. So both my Carter & Emmons have that sound,,is that luck or what.
I had an old timer tell me once a boxers strength is in his leggs just like a steels sound is in the leggs.
I dont know if I agree with him 100% but I do agree with him in a small way as I believe sound changes from hard wood floors to carpet playing surfaces somewhat.
But getting back to the topic, I believe there are many factors in getting that sound from a steel, strings, pick ups, changers, the right hand Etc and most of all what one hears as "that sound" |
Frank Parish
Member From: Nashville,Tn. USA
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posted 09 June 2003 02:07 PM
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I define "That Sound" is the tone of a great Emmons p/p guitar not any other brand. Although I've heard some other good sounding all-pull guitars, they didn't have that distinctive Emmons sound. They have their own distinctive sound. This sound that we talk about here is in the guitar not the hands. That's what makes it the distinctive Emmons sound. There's a lot you can do with your hands for sure but this sound is different to my ears than what you can get with your hands. It's a metallic (or metal like) sound that has incredible highs and the clearest of lows I've ever heard. I'm playing one now that I bought in 96 that had been sitting in a garage for years and I took it right out to the gig only wipiing the black filth off. The strings were pitted and breaking everywhere but that guitar had the tone with all of that filth! I wonder if anybody here could tell which guitar is which blindfolded letting someone else play it?[This message was edited by Frank Parish on 09 June 2003 at 02:18 PM.] |
BobbeSeymour
Member From: Hendersonville TN USA
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posted 09 June 2003 02:59 PM
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Frank Parish, I've never agreed with you more. But the Emmons guitars have "That quality" way up high on the neck where almost all other guitars get "zingy". Emmons still has quality way up high.
Anyway, yes Peter, I can get "That sound" back on any Emmons.
Here's the story:
I got an Emmons trade in once that sounded horrible, no matter what I did to it, Ron Lashly called me about something else so at the end of the conversation I told him about this "Horrible sounding P-P". He said "Don't touch it, I'll be there in two weeks". I mixed the guitar in with several other Emmons P-P steels, he walked in the front door of the store, didn't plug any guitars in, strumed all of them and said, "this one , right?" I replied, yes,you found it, now what? He told me what to do to it (after I told him he was nuts), and wham! He was correct! The guitar was incredible. I thanked him profusly and was a much smarter guy with these great guitars from then on. After this episode, I became a beliver in that any P-P steel guitar can be totally incredible with the correct adjustments, maintenance and care.
------> There is only one tone legend, so far and I don't see another one on the horizon yet. [This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 11 June 2003 at 06:19 PM.] |
BobbeSeymour
Member From: Hendersonville TN USA
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posted 09 June 2003 03:09 PM
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Carl Dixon, if you had 14.5 K pickups on ANY guitar, it had to be pretty bad, Why did it take you so long to figure that one out?(ha ha!) This is where Emmons guitars got their treble reputation in the early years. These pickups were just a fad of the times. All great(single coil) sounding guitars have heavier wound pick ups than this, except Bigsby, but Paul used a total different design. |
Jay Ganz
Member From: Out Behind The Barn
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posted 09 June 2003 03:21 PM
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[This message was edited by Jay Ganz on 09 June 2003 at 03:24 PM.] |
Bruce W Heffner
Member From: Hamburg, Pa.
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posted 09 June 2003 04:44 PM
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I must agree with Bobbe, after playing all pull guitars for 31 years, my ears finally heard what a push pull is all about. By the way Jay, I am drooling more than my German Shepherd Otto does at dinner over your great pictures!------------------
www.pedalsteel.net |
Jody Carver
Member From: The Knight Of Fender Tweed~ Dodger Blue Forever
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posted 09 June 2003 05:43 PM
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That story posted by Bobbe regarding Ron trying each guitar and looking for the "one" special that didnt have that so called "sound" was told to me by Ron,so that is The
Rest Of The Story.Bobbe,,you remember Fred Trogden ? sure you
do and he remembered you as well..Fred built
my 69 PP from scratch. Serial # 1399. and it
has "that sound" you betcha. 20.000 Ohms on both necks. It sounded better than my Bigsby. Bobbe speaketh the truth.  [This message was edited by Jody Carver on 09 June 2003 at 05:44 PM.] |
Donny Hinson
Member From: Balto., Md. U.S.A.
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posted 09 June 2003 06:33 PM
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Hmmmmmm? We sure got a lotta people saying that "nothing sounds as good as an old p/p". Then, of course, there was that statement by that guy (that happens to have his name on the front of every one) who said even he has a hard time telling by listening whether or not it's a p/p.So....I just naturally get to wonderin' (maybe somebody will "enlighten" me). You see, if any guitar was that far, head and shoulders, above the rest, then durn near every "pro" would be playin' one...wouldn't they? But from what I see at concerts, steel shows, and on TV, I don't think that's the case. Maybe one of you can tell me why?  |
David Mullis
Member From: Rock Hill, SC
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posted 09 June 2003 07:03 PM
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I've owned a handful of all pull guitars, but I keep going back to my 71 rosewood p/p. Even with 14.5 k ohm pickups, it sounded better than any all pull I've ever owned. It's away being completely restored and I can't wait to get it back. I was starting to go through withdrawals until my dobro arrived the other day. Hopefully it will keep me from going into DT's until the Emmons is done :-)
I know there are plenty of people out there who prefer a more modern guitar, and that's ok, but, I'll stick with my old Emmons. It's never turned on me. [This message was edited by David Mullis on 09 June 2003 at 07:05 PM.]
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Craig A Davidson
Member From: Wisconsin Rapids, Wisconsin USA
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posted 09 June 2003 07:32 PM
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Donny, At one time a lot of the big players did play one. Like, Emmons, Rugg, Myrick, Maness,Hughey,Wallace,Jernigan,Seymour, and others. Can't explain why they would change. They must have had a weak moment. ------------------
1985 Emmons push-pull,Evans SE200 |
Jerry Roller
Member From: Van Buren, Arkansas USA
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posted 09 June 2003 07:42 PM
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Jay, you are soooooooooooo bad!!
Jerry |
Gary Walker
Member From: Morro Bay, CA
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posted 09 June 2003 08:55 PM
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Bruce, Larry Petree of Bakersfield also told me that Jay Dee would come by his place and strum an unplugged P/P and could tell whether "that" was in there or not. |
Dave Horch
Member From: Frederick, Maryland, USA
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posted 09 June 2003 10:32 PM
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Donny wrote quote:
You see, if any guitar was that far, head and shoulders, above the rest, then durn near every "pro" would be playin' one...wouldn't they?
I tend to agree. I've played the p/p's (I assume everyone is talking about Emmons p/p's). They are VERY nice guitars, and I wish I had one. All it takes is money I guess. But for day to day playing, what with amps and FX and stuff, I decided to buy an all pull modern Mullen. That guitar had the positive and smooth pedal "feel" I wanted. One smooooth puppy! - SOLD - ------------------
Mullen (See! No "S") D-10
Photo page
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John Lacey
Member From: Black Diamond, Alberta, Canada
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posted 10 June 2003 06:14 AM
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"So....I just naturally get to wonderin' (maybe somebody will "enlighten" me). You see, if any guitar was that far, head and shoulders, above the rest, then durn near every "pro" would be playin' one...wouldn't they? But from what I see at concerts, steel shows, and on TV, I don't think that's the case."
The closest answer to that question was provided by Dave Horch"But for day to day playing, what with amps and FX and stuff, I decided to buy an all pull modern Mullen. That guitar had the positive and smooth pedal "feel" I wanted. One smooooth puppy!" The new and the shiny win out quite often with instrument buyers (and many other objects too). In my perfect imagined world I would own a P/P and an all-pull. The all-pull would be for gigs when tone wasn't so crucial and weight and tuning ability were. But since I'm a full-time player, I'll never be able to afford both. |
Joey Ace
Sysop From: Southern Ontario, Canada
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posted 10 June 2003 06:30 AM
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Thanks for those Great Pictures, Jay!!!
Now the obvious question is:
Is there a big difference it tone?
Which is most desireable? |
BobbeSeymour
Member From: Hendersonville TN USA
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posted 10 June 2003 08:11 AM
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If Emmons guitars P-P are so great, why isn't everyone playing one? This is like saying, "If Rolls Royce is so great, why isn't everyone driving one?" .[This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 10 June 2003 at 08:13 AM.] [This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 11 June 2003 at 06:21 PM.] |
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