How about:
10-9-8F-6B (B-D-F-A)
7-6B-5(1/2)A-4 (F#-A-C-E)
8F-6-5-2 (E#-G#-B-D#)

?

Dan

I use that voicing all the time to give a bluesy color to the V7 with the E lever, but I never even thought about it as a 1/2 dim7 or mb57, which of course it is (as you point out).

Cool!

There is a mi7b5 in the 'open' tuning.
With the 6th-string as a Root, the 7th-string is a b7th, the 9th-string is a b5th and the 9th-string is a b3rd.

If you lower the 2nd-string ( by a half-tone ) then every string except 4 and 8 are notes of the 'half-diminshed' chord.

Randys 'shortcut' is, of course, right on.

Another thought that may help clarify the 'half-diminished' mystique is:
Leave the Root out of a Ninth Chord and you are left with a half-dim chord.

For an example, let me transpose Randys example to a different key so we won't encounter as many flats/sharps to deal with:

For example if it calls for a B half diminished, (B minor 7- flat 5) I think D minor.

If we look at the third fret (with the 2nd-string lowered a half-tone, in case we choose to use that string) the notes we have are A B D F and G (and octaves of the same):
With G as a Root this would represent G9th.

If we omit the G (Root of G9th) notes (strings 4 & 8) we are left with the notes A B D and F (and octaves of the same).
With B (string 6 or 3) as a Root this represents Bmi7b5.

Also notice the connection to Randys tip, in that if we also omit the B notes we are left with D, F and A; a D minor, which is the 'minor chord that is a minor third above the root of the half-diminished' .

Think about how you often use a 2 minor as a 'sub' for a 5 dominant - The half/dim 'lays' right in there with them.

When someone says, "8th fret, A & B Pedals, and Lower 4 & 8" we tend to think "G Ninth".
However, if we look at different potential Root Notes we would find a D minor beginning on string 7; and find a B half/dim beginning on string 8.

This 'line' of thinking is an 'extension', if you will, of how, for example, the 'upper' three notes of a CM7 is an Emi, or how the 'upper' three notes of a Dmi7 is an F. Call it 'Overlapping Chords', perhaps.

~Russ

Drew

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Drew Howard - website - Fessenden guitars, 70's Fender Twin, etc.

D F Ab C = F Ab C D

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http://www.johnmcgann.com
Info for musicians, transcribers, technique tips and fun stuff. Joaquin Murphey transcription book, Rhythm Tuneup DVD and more...

[This message was edited by John McGann on 18 April 2006 at 10:59 AM.]

Gillespie is on record as saying his first exposure to the chord was through Thelonious Monk, who helped him write the bridge to "A Night in Tunisia". That's how Monk looked at the chord.

It makes sense to look at it that way from a scale mode point of view too, as both E half diminished and Gm7 are derived from the F major scale.
The other mode option is the 6th mode of the melodic minor scale. In this example, E half diminished is derived from the G melodic minor scale.
The only difference between the two is whether the 9th tone of the scale is natural or flattened.
In my opinion, the nicest voicing for a half diminished chord involves placing the 4th tone immediately next the the flattened fifth. They are only a semitone apart, so it gives lots of dissonance. From the bottom up:
Root
4th
b5
7th

I'll admit I haven't found a voicing for that on the e9th tuning, but I'll think about that today, Jim, and see if I can find one.
-John

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www.ottawajazz.com

[This message was edited by John Steele on 18 April 2006 at 11:31 AM.]

1-----
2--0--
3--0--
4--0--
5--0L-
6-----
7-----
8-----
9-----
10----

Haven't tried it out on the steel yet to see how it sounds. That's a piano player's voicing... sometimes they work well, sometimes they don't.
-John

Strings 4,5,6,9 with 9 and 6 lowered a half (if you have those pulls) and...

Strings 2,6,8,10 with 2 lowered half and 6, 8 raised half (B pedal F lever)

My intention was to find it on C6th though, and here's what I came up with for that:

Strings 3,5,6,8 with the #6 pedal

Actually I've always used the 3rd of a 9th chord method to get me by.

Duane...I also like to play string 1 on top of your first example. It's like lowering the high C a half on the C6 version (pedal 5, 9th string root)

"Night and Day", by Cole Porter. The opening chord is a Dm7b5. It's unusual, too, becuase it's a minor 2-5-1 that resolves to a major I instead of a minor I.

Dm7b5, G7, C major

But I can't think of any "country songs" that use it. Maybe someone else can.

[This message was edited by Jim Cohen on 18 April 2006 at 03:39 PM.]

Ahh, springtime, and all the chords are in bloom

A common chord that comes close would be G7/B, or G9/B etc.

In a scalar harmony approach, the VIImb5, VIIm7b5, VIIm7b5b9, VIIm7b5b11, or VIIm7b5b9b11b13 is the chord before the scale resolver (=I).

Put another way, it is the odd intervals of the IM scale starting on the seventh degree = C,E,G,B,D,F,A,C,E,G starting with B as the chord root.

[This message was edited by ed packard on 18 April 2006 at 05:02 PM.]

No. It functions more like a minor II chord. It's like a minor II chord that grew up on Long Island.

Chip, you hear alot of people talk about the
II-V-I change. It's really important. If it happens in the context where the I is major, it would look like this: (example in C)

Dm7....G7....C

Fine. Now, if the I chord is minor instead, then the II chord would more likely be a half-diminished chord. (also called m7b5) Like this:

Dm7b5....G7b9....Cm

I made the G chord a 7b9 for a reason. As with almost all II-V-I changes all you have to do is drop the 7th in the II chord a semi-tone, and it resolves automatically to the appropriate V chord. Important to know.

The very best example of a tune written to show off Major and Minor II-V-I changes is
Autumn Leaves.
Three extensive threads here:
The Head - http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum8/HTML/000104.html
Trading Fours - http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum8/HTML/000106.html
And accompanying notes - http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum8/HTML/000105.html

Duane talked about Days of Wine And Roses. If you look at that chart, it goes like this:
|F...|Eb7#11 |Am7b5|D7b9|
|Gm..| etc. etc.

Now, look at measures 3,4 and 5.
What it actually is, is a minor
II-V-I change where Gm is I

Even though we're in the key of F, you have to be able to isolate those passages which contain inferences to other keys and tonalities, especially when playing jazz standards and old pop tunes.

It's harder to find a jazz standard without a half diminished chord than to find one with one.

-John

[This message was edited by John Steele on 18 April 2006 at 04:02 PM.]

The E triad over G7 is a G7b9 13 (E being the 13, G#= b9 and B the shared "pivot" note that is the 3rd of G and 5th of E).

Make the E an Eb and the triad could be an Abm (Cb Eb Ab). Call the Cb a B, and you can spell it B D# G# (G#m)- you get a G7 b9 b13 (the only difference is the b13).

The b9 b13 would resolve smoothly as a V to I minor; for example, the b13 (Eb) of the G7 is the b3 of the home key, or I chord, Cm. The b9 13 combo can resolve to either I major or minor, but really "sets up" the sound of the I chord being major, since it contains the major 3rd of the C major (E).

The way to get mobility of the concept is to think of the interval relationship- i.e. for b9 13, think "major triad down a minor 3rd from root of dom 7" and for the b9 b13 "minor triad up a half step (from the root of the dom 7)".

There are many more (and not just on dom 7 chords), but those are two great ones.

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Another m7b5 miracle: Play your Dm7b5, and for the G7 altered sound, just raise the voicing a minor 3rd (Fm7b5).

F B Eb Ab- the 1st two notes are the b7 and 3 of G7, the Eb is b13 and the Ab is b9. Dang, there it is again!

You don't even need a bass player to play the root of G as your ear "fills in the blanks" IMHO.

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http://www.johnmcgann.com
Info for musicians, transcribers, technique tips and fun stuff. Joaquin Murphey transcription book, Rhythm Tuneup DVD and more...

[This message was edited by John McGann on 18 April 2006 at 04:59 PM.]

quote:

---

But I can't think of any "country songs" that use it. Maybe someone else can.

---

Jim -

One that was on the country playlists was Crystal Gail's "Don't It Make My Brown Eye Blue".

The 4th measure of the verse is a split measure with 7 halfdim / 3 dom7th, which functions in a '2m/5' into the 6 minor chord in the following measure.

Also, Chalker recorded
it on 'Nevada Breaks'.

~Russ

GOD, tho....I just dont't get some of it. But that's OK.........I guess it comes down to, why does 1 note make such a big deal???

quote:

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I guess it comes down to, why does 1 note make such a big deal???

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quote:

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why does 1 note make such a big deal???

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'Cause, in the right hands, every note is a stick of dynamite.

Lately I have added a RKR that raise only 8 string to E to F# (split tuned w LKR (E's-Eb)) to give a F note

This lets me play string 8 6 5 4 for the I chord.
add LKR & RKR for a m7b5 (VI9 no root)
Release LKR & use A+B+RKR for IIm7
Release RKR & A then use LKR & B for V7
Release all pedals/levers for the I chord.
All changes done at the same fret and picking string only for the first chord and let them ring for all the other chords.
Yes the F# is also available at the 7th string but raising the 8th a full tone and have the option to split tune it w E's-Eb makes for a lot of nice changes from one chord to another.

Bengt Erlandsen

For John Steele
The Root 4 b5 7th (assuming a b7note)
String 6 5 2b 1 (w 2nd string to D = m7b5)
String 6 5## 2b 1 (same as above w A pedal)
= Root 4th b5th b7th

[This message was edited by Bengt Erlandsen on 19 April 2006 at 02:05 AM.]

"m7b5 = strings 7 6 5 4 with Half A pedal + B.

diminished = strings 7 6 5 4 with Half A pedal + B & lower 4th string to Eb."

Half-pedal is tricky, though!!

quote:

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why does 1 note make such a big deal???

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Kinda like a phone number...

Without using pedal and levers try:
Strings 10, 9 open = B & D; strings 8 & 6 with bar on fret 1 = F & A; add string 5 open for another B…nice for those that like the hammer on and pull off tactics.

For those that will condescend to use slants on the PSG, try:
String 8 fret 7 for B; string 7 fret 8 for D; string 6 fret 9 for F; and string 5 fret 10 for A.

I guess what I meant to get at about 1 note making that much of a difference was that there are other ways to get it.

LIKE...if you get in a jamb [as opposed to a jam], you can always substitute. Either with
the FULL chord or at least the defining note.

Lets face it. Many of us do not play many 4-note or more chords a lot. Well I don't. And things move so quickly at times, is positively playing all the notes of a half-diminished that necessary? Or any chord for that matter, matter that much?

Boy, I hope this clarifies my knucleheadness
a bit more than the Stooges.

Thanks all.

[This message was edited by CHIP FOSSA on 21 April 2006 at 08:02 PM.]

quote:

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Many of us do not play many 4-note or more chords a lot. Well I don't. And things move so quickly at times, is positively playing all the notes of a half-diminished that necessary? Or any chord for that matter, matter that much?

---

I'm well aware of what your saying about having to have those notes somewhere in the band to define that chord [G7]. I instinctively know this, but seeing it broken down in writing and explained a little bit is great. I never thought about the 'B' note being there to define major vs minor. But that's it.

Thanks again, Dr. Jeffreys.