Also, if you play slide guitar, the usual slide "box" patterns can be found in many places on the steel. You can treat the pedal/lever mashing as changing the fixed tuning and work within each set of box patterns.

I sometimes use the Shubb-Pearce dobro-style bar for this kind of stuff, which allows me to lift the bar. Perhaps it's a good idea to not do this at first - to force development of right-hand "blocking" skills - but many SS and bluesy players like Chuck and RR use that type of bar and also block by lifting the bar. One can glean a lot of information just watching Chuck on that video if you know the basic things.

I think there is quite a bit of useful info out there, but not if one takes a passive approach like so much elementary guitar instructional material takes. I think it's necessary to take the bull by the horns to learn an instrument like this, especially if you want to do anything but the standard stuff. Believe me, I haven't been at it that long, and I have to really work at it. I wish I had a year or two to do nothing else, but, alas, I also need to make a living.

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I made some discoveries about fretboard positions with partial chords that were right in front of me, but I didn't see them before

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The late, great Winnie Winston and our Forum's Larry Bell offer some steel oriented opinions here, too.

Of course there is a very good argument for tab on pedal steel, where the same pitch can occur on four different frets on the same string, depending on teh raises and lowers- and that SAME pitch can be found on most of the other strings!

Tab is the mechanical positioning, and knowing that is 100% useful. It's just that when you learn what the notes are, and what the notes in the chords used are, and how they relate, and can HEAR it all, you have much more ammo in your belt. IMHO YMMV etc.

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http://www.johnmcgann.com
Info for musicians, transcribers, technique tips and fun stuff. Joaquin Murphey transcription book, Rhythm Tuneup DVD and more...

[This message was edited by John McGann on 07 November 2005 at 07:04 AM.]

Looking over the reponses, there seem to be representatives of several camps here, ie;

• The currently available steel texts and courses, although containing very dated or "old-timey" songs, are still very useful for understanding the instrument in the pursuit of any style.

• The same texts and courses, by the nature of the tune choices, are hopelessly outdated and turn off the very students they intend to serve.

• One should learn standard notation and use that as a study medium, with more access to musical forms not strictly country.

• One should learn "by ear" and by working things out on the guitar itself.
  

Some very different mindsets, obviously not all well served by the same methodology.

One of the things that bears so strongly on the "tune" end, as Jim C mentioned, is the cost of mechanical licensing for any "new" copywritten material, I really think many here are just plain unaware of how expensive that is in the relatively small run of material we're talking about. And then the choice of just which new material would be acceptable- suggestions of Chuck Berry and Rolling Stones tunes would probably be judged just as archaic as "Red River Valley" by many young newbies.

These are very serious questions, as the mechanical aspects of our instrument make it possibly even more important to have stimulating instructional material that deals with the functioning of the pedal steel, in the world of "modern" music. Whatever that is...

In my case, I had heard most or all of those old chestnuts at campfire singalongs while a kid, or on old movies, or in school... I guess that doesn't happen any more. But even the songs I didn't recognize, and the ones I didn't "like", from the Winston and Scotty books show pedal and knee movement, scale useage, harmonies, tuning and phrasing ideas. It's hard for me to grasp that one can be so turned off by the tunes themselves as to ignore all of the other content... it does take some digging, and perhaps part of the appeal for some is in "learning how to teach one's self".

That being said, there do seem to be some "tab literalists" among us, who only wish to learn songs they would perform in public. I often notice requests in the Tab Forum for very simple tunes which should be reasonably easy to figure out, and wonder if the requests are coming from those new to the instrument, or those who have trained themselves to "need" tab arrangements to perform.

It's obvious that there's a real lack of material to appeal to the rocker/bluesman/modernist/E9 jazzer/... It may be pushing it a bit to say those are an easy leap from "standard old-timey" instruction. I will say, that for those who desire to play alt-country, folk, "no depression", or what I call singer-songwriter music, most everything you need is already in the Winston, Scotty and Newman courses.

In terms of integrating with the classical world, jingle work, and some other layers of professional studio and theatre work, tab might be an anachronism, but as with the large percentage of 6 sting guitarists, reading is not a necessary requirement for professional stature. I think the issue here is more about immediate access (and gratification) to stimulating music for students of any ability. (I'm certainly appreciative of Tommy White's fine tab of his own and John Hughey's albums, which frankly give some true insight into real evolved genius that standard notation just wouldn't accomplish).

There are obviously folks who are desperate for quality study materials that will stimulate and inspire them. I'm currently working on a book trying to integrate theory in an accesible manner with the layout of the E9 tuning, and also trying to make it useful to both novice and experienced players who want to know the instrument better. For all of the reasons here it's a monumental task- how to make theory interesting, and not seem like piles of numbers to the beginner, while exploring the wonderful depths possible for the more experienced... the very nature of the "tune" debate we're seeing here seems to preclude using any "song" examples, for fear of alienating some faction or other of the intended market.

All comments and suggestions solicited and apprectiated. Please tag me back via Email with anything helpful!

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Do kids not even really know She'll be comin round the mountain...

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Something else to think about. What is contemporary today will still be dated tomorrow. Assuming that one could use some of the material by such artists as Hendrix or the Allman brothers or Michael Jackson for instructional purposes, today’s teens and 20somthings still couldn’t relate.

I bet EVERYBODY you ask, regardless of age, knows Twinkle Twinkle Little Star and Yankee Doodle Dandy. And even though none of us would want to play those tunes, the fact that everybody knows them makes them suitable teaching material.

Jim S. - With all due respect, everbody's perspective is a bit different. I think relevant is perhaps .... relative. I was only familiar with a few of those tunes, yet found them to still be relevant for me because they still serve their purpose to demonstrate how a certain pull relates to a given chord change etc.

Efforts by folks like Alan Lomax , Harry Smith and others have helped to document and sustain the memory of some of those old songs. Once upon a time, Bob Dylan heard some of that old stuff and then gave us a bunch of newly relevant tunes to listen to. Now there are many who would consider him to have lost relevance.

For the sake of the future, I hope that history will not lose it's relevance.

I think Scotty's books are very good to get a new steel player going in the right direction. The melodies are simple for the most part, and if you don't know the tunes, then listen to the CD. And if a guy can't handle learning "Amazing Grace", well then he should go back to playing his Xbox.

I grew up on the "one" side. Playing Beatles, Hendrix, Led Zep, Mahavishnu, Zappa, Van Halen, Satriani, Steve Vai etc. etc. (on guitar that is). I always turned a deaf ear to Country as just "corny". Less than 10 years ago I started to open up a bit to it. It's mostly what I listen to now. New Country, Old Country it doesn't matter. I like the Rock influences in the new Country, it's what first opened my ears to it. Along the way, I started liking all of it, old/"dusty" and new.

2 years ago I decided I was going to take up PSG. I loved the Winnie Winston book and most of the other available material. Jeffran material is also great. Fortunately, I started taking lessons with Doug Beaumier who's teaching style and material I also found fantastic. Also, Doug is very forward thinking in his approach to playing whatever style you want. I'm now practicing everything from Country to Rock, Blues and some Jazz. I still "stink" on PSG, but it's all a blast. I'm also playing PSG in what is basically an original Rock band. At least from what I've heard so far, everyone in the band feels that what I bring is cool with them. What I bring are a bunch of whiny PSG country sounds mixed with scales and licks partly based on what I've learned on PSG and partly based on what I've been playing on guitar for 40 years. I have a long way to go!

What I'm trying desparately to tie into this thread and say, is I definitely feel that you can use whatever material you want to "get started" on PSG (of the generally accepted tried and true good things available). Then, with a little bit of an open mind about it, see that it does apply to whatever you want to do with it.

This is not to say that a course that focused on a Rock or Blues style for PSG wouldn't possibly be a good seller and an eye catcher to a mostly younger group of potential players who (like I originally felt) just don't like Country. In that way, I agree with Jim S. But, I still think that to throw something like Winnie's book into a basically "useless" category, is basically an act of treason.

Bob P.

[This message was edited by Robert Porri on 07 November 2005 at 02:22 PM.]

Of course there won't be any winners or losers in this discussion because in music there ARE no winners or losers; music can be whatever anyone listening to it or playing it wants it to be. That's why we all love it for different reasons.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

As far as Winnie Winston's book goes I think every steel player should own a copy. The history,trouble shooting and tunings pages alone are golden.
BTW: Does anybody know who that steel player taking his steel out of the case in the plaid suit is ?

I dare say that the early rock steel pioneers like Rusty Young and Buddy Cage and Jerry Garcia also bridged that gap.

The problem as I see it is that some people on both sides sometimes have a tendency to regard those on the other side with contempt. we are seeing a lot of this in the political arena.

The fact is that there is very worthwhile music on both sides, and those who see that are richer for it.

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BTW: Does anybody know who that steel player taking his steel out of the case in the plaid suit is ?

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True. This forum is clearly skewed towards country music.

But the pedal steel world doesn't revolve around this forum. you run off Garcia and Randolph fans and you limit the scope of the whole place. And dissing me because I don't like country music and don't want to play it is just as bad.

Bobby - as someone else stated, of course the rock versions of course sat on your shelf - you run a forum where those influences are simply not accepted by a lot of participants, making many, many people uncomfortable. that's not your fault...but it's a fact. There's a strong "us" and "them" on this forum, which is a shame. I am, of course, one of "them". But I'm also not one to run away and hide, I have a strong desire to learn the instrument, want to contribute in any way I can and will work to break down those walls by pointing out the silliness when I see it.

And Mike - you can't believe kids don't know those songs - you're living in a dream world.

I realized also my classic rock" examplees were also dated - but interestingly my kids know Beatles, Stones and Beach Boys stuff, and so do their friends.

But not The Wreck of the Ol' 97, Goodnight Ladies or She'll be Comin Round the Mountain.

"It's obvious that there's a real lack of material to appeal to the rocker/bluesman/modernist/E9 jazzer/... It may be pushing it a bit to say those are an easy leap from "standard old-timey" instruction."

That's a major point that I'm trying to make, that the country faction refuses to comprehend. you think all the old-time tunes teach all the basics one needs to play the instrument, and that's WRONG. It does to play YOUR music, but not mine. I'm not committing heresy when I say I disliked the Winston book, or that the CD in the Scott book is poorly produced either. I'm just offering another perspective.

And ****I*** don't even know the words to Yankee Doodlee Dandy!

As long as the educational materials stay in the old-time mode, the steel will be looked at as a "hick" instrument.

And remember - I'm primarily addressing the *commercial* materials - stuff the general public can find in a music store. Little Johnny who sees a steel (probably a Carter Starter, which is the only steel in ANY music stores around here) might think "hey, that looks cool"....so he'll go look for a book. He'll find the Scottt book, the winston book, a Mel Bay E9 Chord Chart, and over in the DVD section the Bruce Bouton video.

And he'll walk out with a new Strat and and a Fender DSP amp, along with one of the DOZENS of modern instruction books and/or videos.

There are more harmonica, mandolin, and dulcimer books available than steel stuff...at least at the music store.

Anyway - the walls have to bee broken down before this will ever get anywhere. the "us " and "them" stuff hhas been worked to death. the next time someone mentions Jerry Garcia, if you think he's over-credited, try leaving it alone. When a new player asks why Robert Randolph is never mentioned, why not ask for some details about his music instead of slamming the questioner...and Randolph for not playing "real" steel.

I had a situation a few days ago where a poster suggested I go back to the guitar world (not knowing about my hand problems) because my views didn't fit in. I came unglued on the poor guy in an email, for which I later apologized. But the comments were still indicative of the feelings of many players here - "if it ain't country, it ain't S***".

That feeling needs to die a quick and painless death.

Open your eyes and ears, folks. I am - I'm sitting here with Ken Williams intros, fills and endings course, which is 100% country, because there isn't much else out there (nicely done by the way, clearly presented and really well recorded). I'll work through what I can with my odd guitars because sure - it helps learn how the instrument works. But it's still not really applicable to what I want to play.

I'm waiting for someone to tab out "Stairway to Heaven". Now that would be interesting. Or T-Bone Shuffle. Or Roundabout. Or Brown Sugar. Or Johnny B. Goode....

Anyone? Bueller?

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you think all the old-time tunes teach all the basics one needs to play the instrument, and that's WRONG.

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Read that again Mike. Then tell me you didn't have to use many other sources of material to reach the skill level needed to play what you play.

You don't go directly from Good Night Ladies to West Side Story. Quit being misleading.

And contrary to what you may think, I went directly from playing Silver Wings and Good Hearted Woman to playing Debussy, I used many of the pedal/chord/scale positions, as well as the right hand techniques, I learned from playing the country songs to play the classical pieces.

There was even a period of overlap when I'd practice a classical piece during the day, then go do a country gig at night.

I've said before, country music isn't really my thing. Like you. I come from the other side of the culture gap. But by learning the tunes and playing them in bar bands (and learning to appreciate and respect respect the culture in the process, even though it's not my culture) I learned how the instrument works, what it does and doesn't do, and how to make it do what I want it to.

I'll say it again. I leaned how to play the steel guitar by playing country music. Playing all those songs you find so distasteful and outdated in all those bar bands gave me the knowledge of the instrument, and the technique I now use to play the music of my choice.

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Got Twang ?

Mark

[This message was edited by Mark Fasbender on 08 November 2005 at 02:45 AM.]

thats not what Jim is saying....

Too many "I's" taking shape now...

each of us has a fondness for certain things..and thats what we gravitate towards. music is no exception.

The Steel Guitar , as we discuss here on this Forum , is an Instrument primarily played by Country music lovers. THAT IS NOT A PROBLEM.

The Music comes first.

Joe Wright produces a rock course, no takers. Joe no longer produces rock courses. But does continue in the E9th Country vain. Smart guy.

Herb S. produces a few E9th programs which are main stream Swing and Country..plenty of takers it appears.

Can Joe and Herb go crazy in other genres ? you bet...

An author who writes a book about the quality of top soil in his back yard probably may not even sell one to his Mom, but he may be an expert on top soil and have a passion for the subject... But we don't give a hoot.

An author who writes a book of short funny real life stories about children will sell a million..probably the first week. The stories are not even about his own kids.

Although on a limited basis I produce some E9th material and sell it over on EBAY. The current program is a basic Speed Picking course. EVERYONE wants to SPEED PICK to Country tunes. EVERYONE .I have sold many and still get a few requests each week. Point here is that the program is NOT about my playing but rather an approach that can be understood and applied by a student.

This program was not a whim, it was calculated. The market is there.

Writers, teachers, etc..at least the ones who are going to survive past the first round must also have some common sense or perhaps business sense. Producing music programs is not just a hobby or a favorite past time, it's a business. Those that understand that you must first crawl, then walk and then maybe run will be successful. The important subject matter is the crawl and walk part. Not the running.

SO why is it we have so many E9th Country programs again ?

The players that come from a different background, and I am one of them, will evolve. They WILL seek there roots regardless of the tabbed music.

Everyone plays Baseball, but there are only 500 in the world capable of playing Baseball at the top level for a living. So should the rest of us not play Baseball ?

There are a limited amount of Steelers playing for a living at the top level. I'm not one of them. But I still play Steel everyday and on the weekends.

Mike P has a great background in styles and genres, but thats Mike. Whats Gold to Mike may be chipped gravel to another.

It's not a question of right or wrong or which style and why..

Teachers who write and produce material will not be teachers long if they have no students, or takers...or if they aim there programs to the smallest portion of an already limited market. Jeff Newman figured it out. Those that understood Jeffs business model followed in his tracks.(no pun)

I love playing basic Chuck Berry Rock and the Blues but you won't find me producing any programs for the E9th Steel in those genres.

We are playing an Instrument and hanging out primarily with Country Music lovers.

It's not right or wrong..it's what it is...

I dare say, 50% of the players may never get past the first few tab courses they purchase, but as long as they are happy and are sittin' at home pluckin' out slides and glisses..then
whats the problem?

Maybe they don't want to play Classical, Rock, Blues , Jazz etc .

It's not a lack of Instructional material it's a minimal segment of students who want to play in other genres.

How many 6 string guitar players are out there ? How many play basic R+R as opposed to jazz or classical ? It's the same over there in that world.

And don't make this thread personal...it's about the music..

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 08 November 2005 at 03:45 AM.]

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I dare say, 50% of the players may never get past the first few tab courses they purchase, but as long as they are happy and are sittin' at home pluckin' out slides and glisses.. then what’s the problem?

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Rich, famous, versatile, jazz and rock bassist Jeff Berlin:

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They are doomed if they keep using tab because tab doesn’t exist outside of being used by some music magazines and websites. A hundred thousand kids are doing nothing for their playing by reading tab and they don’t even know it… Readers, you are being conned with tab and you don’t even know it.

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banjo player/educator Pete Wernick:

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So how do I deal with individual tab-bound students? I give them the unpleasant news that I think they've been taught wrong, and then say I'll be showing them how to speak the language. Luckily, it will use pieces of what they memorized, but it will also involve starting to develop a fast learning curve in learning chord progressions, and at some point "hearing" chord changes. This news bewilders those poor folks who've invested hundreds/thousands of dollars on lessons and tab books.

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Why could these successful, experienced teachers possibly be saying these awful things? Because it can personally enrich them? No, because they have seen the effect that tab has on their very own students, and the fact that they then have to re-teach them how to learn almost from the beginning.

Look at it this way - there are three ways to learn: tab, ear training and reading. If you spend one hour a day for the next five years learning tab*, that is the exact same time that you could have been learning the other two skills (and rather well, actually). If you then go to any reputable teacher, he is going to have to throw out all your wasted time and effort and start you over at the beginning: ear training and reading. If for some (dream-fulfilling, godforsaken, etc) reason you then try go out into the “real” world, which of the three skills are going to turn out to have any use at all? Ear training and reading. It’s your time and money, folks, spend it wisely, or not.

*(Not the least bit inconceivable; if you had told me at age 13 that I’d still be sitting around my living room noodling away 35 years later, I would’ve thrown you out. I should be rich! I should be famous! I should be dead! Etc.)

[This message was edited by David Mason on 08 November 2005 at 03:58 AM.]

Go down there, turn left, then after a while turn right..etc..

you get the point.

But do keep in mind not every player of any Instrument is going to strive and have the dedication to get past lesson one. Some may never get past lesson one no matter how hard they try. Others will fly to lesson 10 before they finish lesson one.

The players that David mentions above in my mind are also limited in there own scope.

A passionate teacher can get a very slow to learn student past obstacles , using every tool available.

A teacher that just assumes that the way THEY teach is the right or only way is not my idea of a good teacher.

TAB is an excellent tool..but at some point to grow, the musician MUST understand what the TAB is telling them..

but that does not mean there are not TAB players who are content for self satisfaction
of just sittin behind there Instrument playing along to some tracks.

Not many of us are going to be Loyd, Buddy or Paul..

Notation tell the player what not to play. In the case of other instruments, this is enough information to allow a student to be able to play the note. But on the steel, simply knowing the note is not enough.

Let's say the note is E. Do you play it on an open E string? On the 5 fret of the B string with no pedals? Or the 3rd string with the A pedal down? Or the first fret of the E string while engaging the E-Eb lever?

Tab tells you what to do physically, but it's strictly a paint-by-the-numbers approach that does nothing to increase the student's knowledge and understanding.

I think tab is a necessary tool for a beginner, just to help him or her learn how to manipulate the pedals and bar. But I also think that once the student has master those basic skills, he or she should get away from relying on it and start to develope their ears, and study basic theory, including the art/science of reading music, and how it app0lies to the steel.

I pretty much see eye to eye with Leila on this. We're both probably too old to appreciate Twinkle Twinkle. Give the kids some meat.

I never said country is s&*^. I saiid I don't care for it and do not want to spend years playing it. There are others in the same boat, and we'd like to see some 1) updating of what's available and 2) more variety, including more instruction in other styles than country.

I've spent 30 yars in marketing so I'm well aware of the "sell to the market" approach. But what I think is being missed is that there is a growing market of non-country players, and itt could be even larger IF there were materials for them. But as long as the only methods are country-based, many potential players are simply driven off before thhey ever start, or quit early in the game.

I alsoi am aware of the "slave to tab" syndrom, which is why I taught using a combination of tab and ear training. I didn't teach by notation because I don't read it, and my theory knowledge is also zilch. But tab DOES have its place, especially with instruments such as steel and guitar with multiple note placements. The quote by Wernick is interesting considering his book and all his other tab output. I'd love to see the context of that one.

You need to start from the beginning. I would recommend. Joe Wright's big book, "My approach to the Steel Guitar". It covers all the basics without concentrating of just country music. Also, Jeff Newman's "Just play the Melody", "Play what you Hear" "Minor Chord Connection" and his blocking courses, his "Steel Guitar Techniques" are courses that apply to all music, played on the PSG. I think the almost every course offers something of value, but you have to recognize it when you see it.

Winnie Winston's book DOES cover the basics. If you can't see this, you will have nothing but problems in the future.

As the say, "everybody's got one" here's my opinion. Learn to play the E9th tuning, or if you want to keep the Fender, set it up as D9th. You can play ANY music on the E9th. Learn the basics first. Look carefully at the courses that are available. There are lots of them that apply to all music, not just country. HAVE PATIENCE! IT TAKES TIME!
IT IS NOT EASY!

I'll never be a great player, but I do enjoy playing and learning. Good luck.

It's obvious by your attitude that you feel picked on, which is unfortunate and unnecessary. Jim, I hate to say it but you just may have brought some of that on yourself. When you post things like "most of you guys are showing your age", talk about the steel being regarded as a "hick" instrument, and just generally writing things that incinuate that players in "the country faction" are a bunch of old, outdated, unsophisticated rednecks... Let's put it this way: You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. I haven't seen anybody promote this us/them idea like you have, Jim. I see a lot of people trying to be helpful and I see a bunch of complaints about culture and relevance from your end, and it doesn't seem well received. That may be part of the reason for your feeling alienated.

For one thing, when you say that this old country music is outdated or irrelevant, what exacly do you mean? Does it not sound as good now as it did 20-50 years ago? Or do you mean that it's no longer commercially viable... As in, a song like "Crazy Arms" won't go platinum in this day and age? Hmm... You know that's probably true, but the fact is that most people who buy steel instruction just might not be as concerned as you about learning the instrument with what's commercially hot, and are more tolerant of what will teach them to just play the thing, even if it is corny. You mentioned that you feel playing old country as part of the instruction won't help you to learn your kind of music, as opposed to the other guys, but remember that you are still using the same 12 notes and the potential for everything else that goes with it. It may not be your music, but it will teach you to play pedal steel guitar. I'm really sorry that getting from point A to point B may involve doing some things not your style, but let's face it: besides the theory of supply and demand which many here have outlined, a lot of the artists you said wouldn't be out of line to use just simply don't have a whole lot of steel involved compared to country - I'm not aware of any steel in the music of Nirvana or Foo Fighters at all - let me know what I missed. If it's new ground breaking material and techniques for non-country stuff your trying to get at, well, that's a little bit beyond instruction isn't it?

So don't worry about steel guitar being stuck in this so-called "country rut". Most steel players (as far as I can tell) aren't concerned with what some innovative music industry person is; we're not trying to promote the steel as the new hot thing to the kids in the music dealer as the replacement for the Stratocaster; the steel is it's own thing - it just does what it does and at this point in history, that's primarily country music. For one, I don't see a huge demographic of people wanting to learn steel and getting scared off by Bruce Bouton and Jeff Newman as you say - just where is this huge untapped market? But hey, what do I know, right? I mean if you want to lead a movement to spread it out to all kinds of music genres, I wish you all the best. But if that is what you want to see happen, then the burden is on you and those who are likeminded to promote it that way; don't get mad at everyone else who hasn't done it for you, or doesn't have any interest in doing so.

Why don't you have someone write a course covering what you want and market that?
$$

[This message was edited by Duane Reese on 08 November 2005 at 07:20 AM.]

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That's a major point that I'm trying to make, that the country faction refuses to comprehend. you think all the old-time tunes teach all the basics one needs to play the instrument, and that's WRONG. It does to play YOUR music, but not mine. I'm not committing heresy when I say I disliked the Winston book, or that the CD in the Scott book is poorly produced either. I'm just offering another perspective.

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Jim, I must comment that you don't know what you are talking about. Any country player that can play on a professional level can easily handle playing rock on the steel. The basics are the basics no matter what you use to learn them. Once you get it together you can play whatever you want. There are only 12 notes and once you know how to find them on the neck you play the ones you want to make the music you want. There is no country vs rock steel battle going on in the real world of people that actually play the instrument. Some guys like to buy country tab because they get to experience the music they love on a more intimate level. That doesn't mean that they
think they know what other people should do. There is no battle.
If you feel bad because you don't have the time to digest the information in Winnie's book to improve you playing you might want to pick up the Chuck Campbell DVD.

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You don't go directly from Good Night Ladies to West Side Story. Quit being misleading.

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For your information, my playing on of 8 of the songs on WSS is based almost entirely on the use of country licks. In fact the recurring signature lick of the music, which closes the songs “Somewhere” and “Tonight Tonight” and the entire suite is the quintessential E9 hold-the-B-pedal-down-and-mash-the-A-pedal lick, (played over a dissonent bass note in 2 casses.) One of the things that impressed me when I was working on the CD was how much of the music worked perfectly on the steel. So much that it‘s almost as if it was written specifically for the instrument.

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….but you certainly like to keep things within "the club…. Maybe you're concerned it'd cut into sales of your theory book ….

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So, first I’m a sell out because I honed my chops playing in country bands, and then I’m a liar because I say that those old songs have value as instructional material, and now I’m so greedy and shallow that I’d sacrifice my principles in order to make a few more dollars.

Aren’t you guys all embarrassed to have me as a member of this forum?

I agree that we as a community should embrace people like Robert Randolph and Susan Alcorn and Chas Smith and Demola Adepoju (from King Sunny Ade’s band), but that has nothing to do with the educational value of traditional country music.

Jim you don’t know ANYTHING about me, how I feel a variety of subjects, whether I have the guts to tell people here when I disagree with them (as I frequently do, especially about politics,) whether I actually make any money from the sale of my book (I did, 5 years ago, but not very much anymore) or CDs (for which I have not even recovered the costs of producing them, and never will, and knew that would happen before I ever started working on them.) Yet you make assumptions about my character based solely on the fact that I think there is great value in today’s existing instruction material, and the principles contained in these courses can be applied to other kinds of music.

Do me a favor. In 4 or 5 months when I host my annual L. A. steel jam, where players from all over get together for an afternoon of picking and socializing, stay home. You are NOT invited.

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Bobby - as someone else stated, of course the rock versions of course sat on your shelf - you run a forum where those influences are simply not accepted by a lot of participants, making many, many people uncomfortable. that's not your fault...but it's a fact.

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I'm learning a new instrument now - the marimba. The books I buy have scales, technique building pieces, how to hold the mallots, stuff like that. They don't teach me any Jimmy Buffet songs. It's up to me to apply my newfound knowledge to the songs that are useful on the bandstand.

I wouldn't want to listen to a band that learned their parts from "how to play " books. Would you?

If you think about it, the most popular methods settle for getting only the most basic concepts through to the student. (and this is not exclusive to Steel guitar instruction). How many times have you read or heard: "You don't really NEED to know theory, as long as you know this..."

I agree that most introductory music instruction is focused on young adults, so a disciplined commitment is usually not expected. But I find it unrealistic to have 60% of a course spent on the various uses of the major scale, and then just say: If you know this, you'll be able to play 90% of the music out there.

This train of thought presupposes the student to expect "an easy way out" when composing, improvising, etc... There's no way out of it. To really learn, there are no short cuts. And this means you have to make a personal commitment to learning. Something that no instruction course will hold you to.

1. I didn't say country music was outdated. I said the old tunes used in the two instructional manuals are. and those tunes aren't all country. Please get that fact straight.

2. I never said country was s*&^. I said I don't prefer playing and/or listening to it. Merely a personal preference. That leads to

3. I have expressed a desire to see updated, modern materials that cover a variety of styles available COMMERCIALLY. A potential player in a music store will never see a Joe Wright course, a Newman course, or any of that stuff. The stores don't carry them. I'm talking specirfically about shelf-stock items, not small-distribution mail order stuff.

4. Mike, I specifically said you didn't go from "Good Night Ladies" or "Grandfather's Clock"(as you inferred at one point) to "West Side Story" - NOT that years of playing country couldn't get you there if you want to take that route and have that kind of time on your hands. I really don't feel you are reading what I'm saying...or reading what *you're* saying. I'm sorry you feel I'm not worthy to attend "your" jam, but I think your feelings are based on reacting to things I'm NOT saying. Please take the time to reconsider your reactions.

I'm not trying to change the world, just find some appropriate teaching materials. It's very hard to spend hundreds of dollars on things far outside your style to "experiment" with. I've been finally given some viable suggestions - great, I thank Bill Moore for his help.

Duane, the first part of your first sentence is all I'm looking for. But if you read some of the early emails I received from otherwise respected members of this forum you'd understand feeling picked on, a large portion of them being of the "go away, we don't want you rock people here". As far as there not being steel in music you mentioned, that's the point - there could be. Unfortunately, I can't play guitar right now or I probably wouldn't be (apparently) bothering you with this, so I'd like to play steel and work it into rock and blues music. It HAS been done, but there's not much in the way of instruction for a new player to go on. Does that not make sense to you?

Sad. Now Mike doesn't want me at what he claims as "his" jam because *he's* offended?

Imagine a guy who loves and wants to play "classic" country steel styles, and he's working on a song that moves from G to C.

Across town there's another fellow who loathes country, working up some licks to play over the G7 to C7 in "Stormy Monday" for his weekend jam band.

A gal in the next town has just inherited an old Fender 1000 and is trying to figure out how to get from G to C, using her old flute music from high school band...

As begineers, each of them looked at the open E9 tuning and figured out they could slide the bar from fret 3 up to fret 8... but where to go from there?

Well, the old moldy tunes in Winnie and Scotty's books illustrate numerous ways to go from "a I to a IV chord" using various pedal and knee combinations, 7th, augmented, and dimished chords, different string groups and melodies... any and all of which would be suitable and usable for any of the three player's stylistic ambitions.

Regardless of the "song", any decent instructional material offers many roadmaps for negotiating musical territory, and except in rare instances, it all applies to any genre.

Like many, I used those (often cheesy) old "songs" to learn various ways to negotiate the musical changes common to most genres. Today I play with rock, reggae, blues, and even metal and hip-hop bands, as well as country, and I use the material I gleaned from existing material to build from. I see no difference in the "raw material" I start with for any of those genres- I didn't need a "Rolling Stones" course to get a handle on rock. (Although it would have been nice to have one- a course that had tabbed out actual steel parts from any Stones records would have been pretty rudimentary!)

No, you don't go "directly" from "Wreck of the Old '97" to "West Side Story", but neither would you go "directly" from "Brown Sugar" to "Stairway to Heaven". Any book using any song faces the same problems- relevance to the larger mass of prospective students. It takes having the vision to see that music is a mostly universal language and that one can learn much from any good material that applies to one's preffered genres.

A book of Robert Randolph tunes would attract a lot of younger newbies for sure. Unfortunately to be accurate they'd be learning in his somewhat obscure tuning (leaving songs like "Teach Your Children" difficult or impossible to play), and frankly, the difficulty of Robert's style would probably scare off as many as if he were playing "How Great Tho Art". Which, come to think of it he does play...

I listen closely to my younger students and would love to be able to write a book that illustrated theory and technique using their preferred "songs"... Most of them like different stuff- I see no real commonality in song choices and tastes. A few years ago tab of Guns 'N Roses' "Sweet Child Of Mine" would have sold a bunch of steel books- but not today.

The cost of mechanical licensing for the few books sold makes it a no starter.

Looking at most of the Steel styles outside the "country mainstream", I hear very little in technique and approach (RR and the Sacred steelers being an exception), that isn't derived from, or totally consistent with, the old dried up instructional materials we've been talking about. The songs may not be relevant, but the material certainly is.

One thing I want to point out again is that I have been specifically referring to a couple of books that are commercially available. They, in my opinion, are very "long in the tooth". Everything from the songs, to the photos (the guy in the tie on Winston's book to the cowboy hat and whatever that tie is on Scott's) to the recording quality.

For the beginning student, that's ALL that's available, at least in this neck of the woods. I've been in 20 music stores looking for steel books, and found those two and the Mel Bay Chord Chart, plus Bruce Bouton's video...which is also obviously country-oriented, and has a photo on the cover of a mullet-haircut (I assume it's Bruce wearing it) that went out of style 15 years ago (sidebar - great T-shirts at NAMM in the Ernie Ball booth - "Beware the Mullett").

Are these same things going to be all that's available in 10 years? 20?

Look, my kids really haven't heard the songs I mentioned. They are NOT "familiar tunes". Athe risk of alienating somebody again - maybe they are in Iowa or Nashville, but not here.

In counterpoint, more than one person has said specifically to stay completely away from E9 tuning for blues and rock. that while it *can* be done, it's the hard way and always sounds wrong. C6 is better (or my B6), but not E9. Others have agreed that E9 will work, but "you can't get there from here"...meaning the instructional materials point you in the wrong direction except for basic "how the instrument works" knowledge. If you don't play a country style, in other words - you're on your own.

That's what I feel. When I was teaching guitar, I asked students what they wanted to learn. Invariably, it was something by System of a Down or somebody popular at the time. And the songs always had a "hook". So I would teach them the hook...but sneak in some foundational stuff in the way of finger excercises and chords as well. If I told them "sorry, I won't teach that - but "Grandfather's Clock" has a lot of the same notes in it" I would have had no students.