Instead, I totally glossed over all of the available materials, incorrectly thinking that they just were not at all relevant. After all, I was playing in rock and country rock bands, so what possible good would this old, stale country stuff be to me? Instead, I concentrated on peeling David Call, Rusty Young, Buddy Cage, David Lindly licks off of records. Definitely the wrong move! If it wasn't for the Boot Camp week at JeffFran in the late '70's, I would have gotten nowhere fast with the instrument.

Now, returning to the instrument after a 20+ year layoff, I find that I'm looking at all of the country and swing training materials in the way b0b describes. There's no magic formula or solution, however, I find this material an invaluable insight into the genius of the great players. For me playing any of this, the genre of the song, now takes a back seat to actually learning -why- it was played like that.

Also, I can't recommend highly enough Mike Perlowin's great book on practical theory. Combine that with the PSG supplement that he is so kind enough to supply, and it's the best foundation a steel player could ever want!

Cool post b0b!

As a guy who tries to "think notes" while learning, I sure would like to see more PSG instruction using standard notation with the tab, as in the Manual of Style and a few other books.

Music is music, and I think learning ANYTHING on the instrument can only help your overall knowledge of the instrument. Please forgive my flair for the obvious

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http://www.johnmcgann.com
Info for musicians, transcribers, technique tips and fun stuff. Joaquin Murphey transcription book, Rhythm Tuneup DVD and more...

I must preface this by saying that I love traditional country and being a third generation professional steel player I have very deep country roots. I must also preface this by stating that I am looking at this topic from the perspective of a new player, not a player that has been playing 10 years and wants to continue his or her theory studies.

Fundamentally I agree with your post, however I have found that when a person gets turned onto steel guitar by Robert Randolph or Paul Franklin on the dire straits stuff, etc. etc. he does not want to learn the old stuff, and in fact quickly loses interest if I try to show him any traditional country licks. Same goes for my guitar students. They want to play music that they hear on the radio that THEY like. What gets them going and practicing alot is being able to show there buddy this cool new song that they just learned, not on top of old smokey to use your example. I believe, and know from personal experience, that people quickly lose interest music because they are forced to learn how to read music and forced to play nursery rhymes before learning anything that they are interested in and can sink their teach into.

To help tie this to your post, sure the traditional music's "theory" relates cross-genre, but should there not be teaching materials out there that is geared more towards these rock/fusion world players? Something that will keep their interest while learning? Why should they be forced to dig through music that is not appealing to them in order to learn how to play the steel guitar?

Like the music or not, the steel guitar is being used in all styles of music today. I would venture to say that more people are exposed to the steel guitar today than ever before in the history of the instrument. This is great. There are also some really affordable and great playing student model guitars on the market today, so why not "hip up" some of the instructional material to go along with the trends?

I remember clearly that the Red River Valley tab taught me how to go seemlessly into and out of the B6 position. It also taught me some hidden passing chords that I had not previously identified with the song itself.

A lot of though went into the tabs in that book. I still refer to it. It sure helped me with learning the fretboard, and how to think like a steel player.

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Mike Barone
Sho-Bud Pro-1 5&4 with RHL | Nashville 112
Assorted Guitars & Keyboards

[This message was edited by Michael Barone on 06 November 2005 at 11:35 AM.]

Not arguing, just curious. This is a cool thread.

Jeremy

[This message was edited by Jeremy Moyers on 06 November 2005 at 12:26 PM.]

Make no mistake, I LOVE country, and also have very deep roots in it. But, Jeremy's right. Our courses would attract many more students were they able to study using the songs they most enjoy hearing.

Though I agree that the steel has been shown to be an incredibly versatile instrument, the growth must continue, and evolve, if the steel is ever to take it's rightful place as an important and "legitimate" musical instrument.

Let's open more "steel guitar doors" for our kids to enter as they explore the musical universe.

Remember how the Beatles began the popularization of the 6 string electric guitar?

Just my opinions.

Larry...but the interest is germain to the material under study.

[This message was edited by Mike Wheeler on 06 November 2005 at 12:47 PM.]

Music that is more harmonically and melodically simple gives you a good grounding ("Oh, Hank's yodel is a major 6th!"). You CAN use any musical vehicle to explain theory (or vice versa), but it is a lot easier to start with triads, I IV V progressions etc. I know the Van Halen stuff is also down to earth a lot of the time; there is a ton of great stuff to learn from that music about triads, riffs, etc. but there is a lot of tricky stuff too, in terms of explaining the basics of diatonic harmony, with pedal point etc. - just my .02

A lot of ex-shredders come to Berklee to learn more about music overall- WHY what they played works. Armed with that knowledge, they can shred more effectively

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http://www.johnmcgann.com
Info for musicians, transcribers, technique tips and fun stuff. Joaquin Murphey transcription book, Rhythm Tuneup DVD and more...

cool tread guys!

And Jeremy, (yes, I'll admit this here!) RR was the guy that got me back into playing again. I do agree that we need some more like him to keep our great instrument alive.

John: Good points as well. In the few months I have been "back in the saddle" with the PSG, I've learned more about the instrument than I did in 6 years of playing years ago. I think our instrument needs more guys like you and Mike Perlowin! --Cool website you have there btw!--

regards to all,
-Larry

[This message was edited by Larry Weaver on 06 November 2005 at 01:18 PM.]

I guess my thrust is that I'd like to see instructional material updated more frequently...maybe "updated" is the wrong word...how 'bout modernized? Young people are attracted to modern music. And although we have many teriffic courses avaiable that are worth their weight in gold, wouldn't modern versions be more palatable to the youngsters.

So that's one lick from one song in a book packed with licks. The Anthology of the Pedal Steel is enough instruction for some people's lifetime.

quote:

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But why do the basics have to be taught using traditional country music? Can they not be taught using another style. In your case, could you not have learned theory by learning Van Halen instead of classical? Would you have been inspired to practice more by playing what you would like to play instead of what you were forced to play?

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I thought the topic was aimed more at starting players who should learn the basics of music theory at the same time they learn the pedals and knees. That was my focus. I think beginners will go a lot further if basic theory in given to them in the most exciting context possible.

Once off the ground, so to speak, application of the theory can, of course, take on a more personal direction...be it country, jazz, rock or what have you. But everyone should get the basics down right out of the gate.

I teach (not music these days) for a living, and look at it like this, whether it's teaching music or math. One needs to supply a "hook" to get most people excited about learning anything. Research on learning shows this type of "hook" is important, and not everybody can supply it themselves. I absolutely agree that the very self-motivated person can start out learning "Red River Valley" and spend hours every day practicing scales of various types and their application to songs. My attitude is that if one is really committed to learning, one should be willing to use the resources that are available. I'm not against "cool" resources, but if that type isn't available, I'm going to try to find what I need in whatever is available.

But my experience is that, these days, most people won't enjoy that enough to really want to practice/study much. If one can find something the student thinks is "cool" to play which also has embedded within it things that require understanding of deeper musical principles, this is the best way to get students to go after that deeper understanding. I'm always amazed how hard people will work at something otherwise completely stultifying, if they can see the tangible result. I remember, as a kid, spending hours every day, for years, throwing a ball up against the back of the house just because I loved baseball so much.

quote:

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Music is music, and I think learning ANYTHING on the instrument can only help your overall knowledge of the instrument.

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Agreed with fully! Case in point: I recently found myself running a BIAB track of (of all things) Gloria Gaynor's disco hit "I Will Survive." Trying to play it sounds like hell, of course, but I know there is something--technique, progression, etc.--that I will get from it. Don't know what yet, but so what!

I received "Silent Night" tabbed in two-string grips last December and now I'm picking that up again to learn how to add more stings, pedals, and levers to those baby chords to give the song a more pleasing and fuller sound. Hopefully, I'll learn some theory doing that. It'd be nice if an instructional book would do this for me, step-by-step.

I couldn't agree more that a student needs to begin with something he loves. So give him 'Stairway to Heaven' and one scale to learn and it'll make doing the scale easier. Its not a hard concept. Vegetables just taste better with steak.

I love this Steel Guitar. I wish this was all I had to do.

quote:

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SO why is all the E9th material predominantly traditional country!!

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Uhh...because that's where the biggest market segment is? (Just guessing.) In a similar vein, I don't hear J-Lo or Britney doing many Hank Sr. songs.

Mike P. makes a great point: that most adults will not mind putting up with whatever the dorky song is long enough to learn the underlying principles, and then start applying it to songs you prefer. Dave Mudgett also makes a great point, that younger folks are often too impatient for this process and want to be learning the ropes on something cooler than "Red River Valley". That's a problem. I wonder whether, if someone did offer a new instruction book with more recent, cooler tunes in it, and had to pay the royalties, that they would sell enough copies to make it worthwhile having done it. Maybe so. Actually, I hope so.

And I have to point out the painfully obvious - most of you guys are showing your age.

I'm 53, and I don't want to play hackneyed old tunes that I feel are irrelevant to where I wish to go with the instrument. Sure - I understand that learning ANY music will help with progress on the instrument, but a book of polkas, German beer drinking songs, Sibelius excerpts and Rap would have just as much relevance. We SERIOUSLY need modernized instruction materials, lest players lose interest.

I got Scotty's book, I'm 40 pages into it and I'm hunting desperately for other stuff. *This* is a "bible" of steel?? Not to mention the pathetic recording quality on the CD - please, folks, if you're going to sell a book/CD for $37 make sure you get some takes where the rhythm guitar player taps his foot or something to keep time. It's embarrassing.

Back to the "age" bit - many of you have mentioned it's valuable to use "familiar" tunes.

Guess what? Unless you're my age, you don't KNOW those tunes. I asked the following people - a mid-30's neighbor couple, my 23 year old son and two of his friends, my 15 year old daughter and one of her friends, and my 11 year old son. NONE of them had ever heard of "Red River Valley, "Goodnight Ladies", Wreck of the ol' 97", Grandfather's clock or anything but Greensleeves, Amazing Grace, "Saints", and my son knew "Rising Sun" only from me laying the old Animals version. Sorry, "Coming round the Mountain" and "Old Smokey" were on the "huh??" list.

Proofs in the pudding folks. The current commercial (I can't speak for Joe Wright's stuff or anything that's not found in music or book stores) releases - both of them - are dusty old tomes that had their day and should be put out to pasture.

The post that said "if you want rock or blues materials, write them" puts the cart before the horse - It's those of use who play those styles and are BEGINNERS who want it - so we can't write it.

You can find a guitar book in every style under the sun. There are mandolin books covering country, bluegrass, swing, jazz and folk. Same with Bass. And drums.

But steel is stuck in 1) a country rut, and 2) teaches it using materials that are horribly out of date.

Again - you can preach to me until you are blue in the face that learning country styles will teach you...eventually...the rock or blues styles you want to play. I will argue forcing a player to play music he/she dislikes will cauuse lost interest in the instrument and eventual implosion. I'm a good example - I gave up once, 10 years ago, victim of the Winston book. I detested the material, it bored me, and I lost all interest.

Now, I'm someone who can at least stomach a little country here and there, especially the Burritos and Poco country/rock stuff. But there are people who are interested in steel who HATE country music.

What can THEY do to learn?

Also realize that many of us...especially older players with families...don't have time for lessons. We have to grab tab and CD's and try to work in practice when we can.

I KNOW there must be competent player/teachers out there who can develop and publish updated materials. IMO they would tap a huge new market. With the Carter Starter out there, it's no longer a $3,000 investment to get started on steel.

All updated material would do is grow the market and the instrument's exposure. And that hopefully is a good thing.

I know there are some who strongly feel that steel is country and any other application (or playing of the instrument by rock musicians) is heresy, i.e. the Garcia and Randolph debates, which are the most ridiculous things I've ever read.

Oh - and whoever writes the new stuff, make it available by Paypal.

;-)

[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 06 November 2005 at 07:18 PM.]

Now let's look at the steel guitar world. Unless you're ready to drop some serious dough, why should anybody make special motivational lessons for you? I think this is basically Jim Cohen's point. It's a small market - I expect it's tough to amortize the cost of making serious instructional materials over "dozens" of students. They need hundreds or thousands, I would think.

There are some who teach in an updated style. But unless we support them by buying their lessons new and putting money into their pockets, why should they do it? I think this was part of Mike Perlowin's earlier post.

So, we can complain until we're blue in the face about old lessons with old, outdated tunes, but unless there's a real economic incentive for a lot of people to make new pedagogy, why should we expect big changes?

No, a book starting someone out with Van Halen's "Eruption" is silly, but it wouldn't be out of line to use Chuck Berry. Beatles, Stones, Clapton, Beach Boys, Neil Young, Nirvana, Foo Fighters, Yes, Eagles, some classic blues riffs....yes, I'm aware of publishing rights, but it's not that tough a hurdle. You just use the stuff you're able to publish.

I'm also not up on steel enough yet to write this kind of thing, and anyway, I have a math book to write before I could do anything else. But I mix a lot of rock and blues into my steel playing every gig. I'm guessing that Joe Wright and Paul Franklin have instructional materials with a good handle on this. I probably should pony up and get some of these.

What I did when I was first feeling like the standard tab stuff was a drag was to dig into the Jamey Abersold stuff and figure out where the notes are on the neck. That way I could access all sorts of learning material. Also the Joe Wright excel spreadsheet program for mapping scales has been a major help for me.

The more I teach the less I like tab. Its good for some stuff I guess but I'm feeling more and more that there is something basicly crippling about it. The students that use there ears and minds and then get there hands together to do what there ears tell them make such better progress.

Bob

I took up pedal steel to play country music, and I believe it's best suited to that genre. I have no interest in trying to do anything radical with an instrument that has such a warm, cozy home in country. when I want to rock out, I pick up the electric 6-string.

I'm a beginner at steel guitar, I think the old tunes in those old books work just fine for examples of the basic principles. It's probably a lot more than guys like Mooney, Brumley and Sneaky Pete.... or any one else from a generation or two ago had to start with.

Sometimes it's easy to overlook the value of 'dated' things....until they become rare valuable, vintage antiques .... or just disappear altogether and become lost to the world.

Different people have different needs. I'm not looking to play like anyone else in particular, just to increase my knowlege of the insrtument and music in general....so i'm easy to please on that account.

A good teacher helps alot, I agree with Cliff that John McClung is excellent.

I think the uilleann pipes might be tougher to learn than the pedal steel .... mainly because they don't have any resource nearly so cool as this forum for information about the instrument.

[This message was edited by Brendan Dunn on 07 November 2005 at 04:22 AM.]

Most people would have as much or more fun with those scanned jazz & standard fakebooks, forumite Mike Ihde sells a CD with 12 books on it, you can find him in "Links" -> "Steel Vendors and Instructional Material." Also, somebody (?) posted them online here not long ago too.

No tab system is perfect that I've seen, but it has a purpose: it tells the player exactly where the notes he's seeking in a recorded arrangement are located, quickly.

For the piano, saxophone, and most wind instruments I know of, there's only one place to find a particular note. So a note shown in standard notation has only one place on the instrument where it can be found. Easy.

The steel is a different bird. There can be six, seven, eight, nine, etc. different places where a particular note can be found. Each place has different opportunities for the following notes, and each place has different ease of execution places based on the notes that came before it. Tab eliminates the time and confusion spent in searches.

Tab is designed for "ear" musicians to get up and running on songs without the necessary discipline of reading standard notation, which does offer more information about timing, inflection, etc. Tab is meant to accompany and elucidate a recorded example, not to be the sole source of instruction as is standard notation.

I can read standard notation and do so when I want to work up an arrangement for a tune I've never played before. But I learned to read notation on my own time, and I'm not a hot-shot orchestral-type reader. My students want to play steel guitar in country bands, not in orchestras, and they want to do it in a matter of months, not years.

IMHO, tab doesn't replace standard notation. It's a different thing, though it does duplicate some of the functions of notation. Tab, when accompanied by standard notation, is very functional; it only loses some of its functionality when it stands alone. Like I said, it's meant to be used with another source, either written or recorded.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

The fakebooks mentioned - are those steel fakebooks in tab or notation fakebooks? I can't read music and am another slave to tab and ear.....

Brendan - again, those "old tunes" are (I assume) meant to be familiar to the player, but are not anymore and have lost their relevancy.

Additionally, read my earlier post about inclusion of rock/blues basics - that would go a long way in filling a huge hole AND be familiar at the same time.

[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 08 November 2005 at 03:29 PM.]