quote:

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I have expressed a desire to see updated, modern materials that cover a variety of styles available COMMERCIALLY. A potential player in a music store will never see a Joe Wright course, a Newman course, or any of that stuff. The stores don't carry them. I'm talking specirfically about shelf-stock items, not small-distribution mail order stuff.

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The very materials mentioned are part of the REASON there are only 2 or 3 steel players in a given town. There's no interest being built.

BTW, in your first post there was a quote:
"the secrets locked in a couple of Buddy's Ray Price rides."

quote:

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I'd like to play steel and work it into rock and blues music. It HAS been done, but there's not much in the way of instruction for a new player to go on. Does that not make sense to you?

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What doesn't make sense to me is why you seem to think that steel instructors are responsible for providing a product that there is little or no demand for. Yes of course there could be steel in pretty much anything, but there just hasn't been because it's not popular enough. Would you go on a tirade against bassoon instruction providers for not having a full catalog of rock, pop and blues lessons?

When you were teaching guitar, and you had kids asking you to teach them alternative rock songs, my guess is that the percentage of students wanting to learn that style is a little bit higher than the percentage of people who are asking steel instructors to provide what you are. What if a kid came to you and wanted guitar instruction for say, the accordian parts in polka... What would you tell him? Think about that long and hard...

I am sorry that you are having problems with your hand and can't currently play hand-held guitar, and I'm not saying that what you are trying to do on steel can't ever be done, but since no one else really is trying to do it, it's not going to be easy. The steel guitar is not set up to do exactly what a conventional guitar does - if it were, what would be the point? Most people have probably assumed that if you want to play what a guitar plays you'll just play the guitar, and if yo want to play what a steel plays you'll just play the steel; but you have a different situation on you hands. Unless you want to try to invent your own way and style of making it happen, they about the only thing you can probably do is contract someone to give you specialized instruction for what you are trying to do. I'm sure you can find a way to get what you are looking for - if there's a will there's a way.

All I'm saying is that you shouldn't get mad at everyone for not having something that is obscure and needs to be taylored for you if you really want it. I don't want to see you ran out of town, and I think it's bad for people to write you e-mails telling you to buzz off, but you just can't go lashing out at everybody for something that is not their fault. There just aren't enough people who want what you want to make provisions readily avalible - it's called supply and demand.

So look, you can go on about this until the cows come home, but the fact is this: you know what you want, you know how easy it isn't going to be to get, and you know what to do about. I don't know what more anybody can say here to make you happy. Just cowboy-up and do what you've got to do...

And the Pedal Steel happens to be a "guitar" not a "bassoon". It's a slide guitar with added gadgetry. But it's still a guitar, and I'd wager more pedal steel players also play guitar than bassoon. In fact, I'll bet most *started* on conventional guitar.

"What if a kid came to you and wanted guitar instruction for say, the accordian parts in polka"

Did several things very similar. Horn parts, as a matter of fact.

Duane, YOU seem to think I'm mad, which I'm not. just frustrated at what I see as a reluctance on the part of the "old guard" to recognize that there is an untapped market, and probably a new market out there. nobody is willing to make the plunge - OK, I don't blame them for not producing fully rock or blues oriented instruction materials - that wouldn't make financial sense.

But it DOES make sense to update the old stuff to include newer materials and other styles. I don't know how one could argue against that unless one feels the steel is strictly a country instrument, the old tunes are well known by those who have learned in the past, so it's all still valid and current.

Yikes. That's a scary thought.

You also keep assuming I want stuff tailor-made for me. I don't know where you get that either. Again - let's look towards updating things and widening the horizons a bit.

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Got Twang ?

Mark

[This message was edited by Mark Fasbender on 08 November 2005 at 06:13 PM.]

IMHO, playing pedal steel is just like playing baseball. You learn by doing it, not by reading a book about it.

[This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 08 November 2005 at 06:48 PM.]

Bobby, that is NOT what I said!!!!

Please re-read the posts - I don't want to write it all out again. You're not even close.

"And you want someone to lose money for a decade or two building that market to prove your point."

No, ADD to the existing materials - and update the ancient ones. I really think you skimmed the replies rather than my posts, Bobby.

Try reading this from my last one:

"Duane, YOU seem to think I'm mad, which I'm not. just frustrated at what I see as a reluctance on the part of the "old guard" to recognize that there is an untapped market, and probably a new market out there. nobody is willing to make the plunge - OK, I don't blame them for not producing fully rock or blues oriented instruction materials - that wouldn't make financial sense.

But it DOES make sense to update the old stuff to include newer materials and other styles. I don't know how one could argue against that unless one feels the steel is strictly a country instrument, the old tunes are well known by those who have learned in the past, so it's all still valid and current."

Is that clear?

[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 08 November 2005 at 08:36 PM.]

And again (for Bobby, who still thinks I want everyone to lose money producing stuff only I would buy) merely adding newer styles to old methods would be an improvement. The 20-year old books need some updating. Well, in my opinion, anyway.

And sorry, but adding a pedal doesn't make it rock, or blues (and II have enough of that stuff to fill a garage).

The Joe Wright material has been recommended - great, thanks. That's a place to start. I do have to admit to never having heard of Joe Wright before joining this forum, and I still have never heard him. (Sigh - the Paypal issue raises it's head again.)

But again, Joe's material is not available to the kid in the music store who sees the new Carter sitting there (they seem to be spreading, even in L.A. where I never saw steels in stores for years) and thinks it's cool, different..and wants a book. He's stuck with a guy in cowboy hat playing Goodnight Ladies....

Some of you have been thoughtful enough to notice that my points aren't about me..to some degree yes, but more about what I've noticed and the lack of materials for anyone outside the "country core". I thank those who have taken time to read and consider those thoughts.

I would hope the people who missed that simply didn't have time to read a lengthy thread and skimmed through, unfortunately misinterpreting the vital core of the whole thing.

I have tremendous respect for everyone here, as this is an instrument that takes an unusual amount of dedication to learn. It's wrestling a 16-legged greased octopus that's a Mensa member. I even respect those who told me to leave, cussed me out, called me a hippie (I thought that was hilarious considering...never mind, I don't discuss politics ever) and made several references to the marital status of my parents. They all love the steel. That deserves some respect.

I would think my opinions and ideas do as well. Even if you don't agree.

[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 08 November 2005 at 08:53 PM.]

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Got Twang ?

Mark

Excuse me?

I haven't dismissed any suggestions or slapped anyone...well, I may have slapped one person, but I was personally attacked, and that's different.

Bobby made some good suggestions with the Joe Wright Material I wasn't familiar with...but also apparently didn't read what I actually posted and assumed I wanted to be spoon-fed my own personal materials, which I never implied. Pointing out that error isn't insulting anyone - it's just fact, and I tempered it by noting he may not have had time to read the entire thread.

I don't know how many times this has to be repeated, but I'll cut-and paste part of it again:

"1. I didn't say country music was outdated. I said the old tunes used in the two instructional manuals are. and those tunes aren't all country. Please get that fact straight.

2. I never said country was s*&^. I said I don't prefer playing and/or listening to it. Merely a personal preference. That leads to

3. I have expressed a desire to see updated, modern materials that cover a variety of styles available COMMERCIALLY. A potential player in a music store will never see a Joe Wright course, a Newman course, or any of that stuff. The stores don't carry them. I'm talking specifically about shelf-stock items, not small-distribution mail order stuff.

4. Mike, I specifically said you didn't go from "Good Night Ladies" or "Grandfather's Clock"(as you inferred at one point) to "West Side Story" - NOT that years of playing country couldn't get you there if you want to take that route and have that kind of time on your hands. I really don't feel you are reading what I'm saying...or reading what *you're* saying. I'm sorry you feel I'm not worthy to attend "your" jam, but I think your feelings are based on reacting to things I'm NOT saying. Please take the time to reconsider your reactions.

I'm not trying to change the world, just find some appropriate teaching materials. It's very hard to spend hundreds of dollars on things far outside your style to "experiment" with. I've been finally given some viable suggestions - great, I thank Bill Moore for his help."

Summary - In my opinion the COMMERCIAL books are outdated. It would be a great idea if they were updated to include new material and other styles of music. The steel world could possibly be expanded that way, which is a good thing.

Yes, I am looking for guidance on materials to approach the instrument from OUTSIDE the country vein. The has been two sets of replies - one that I'm nuts, and the country stuff is just as good as anything I could ever find, even if I don't want to play it. The second group, half of which came by email to avoid the writers' being flamed as I have, suggested I was right and that there just isn't much available, which is a shame. And one directly helpful suggestion came from Bobby, who in the same breath accused me of attacking windmills as he pointed me to rock instruction materials. huh?

Mark, I do appreciate your suggestion as to tone - but adding a fuzz to Grandfather's Clock doesn't make it rock. It simply adds a distorted sound to an old song. I hope you know what I mean, and see a bit of humor in that statement - but you DID ask.

I'm not trying to bee argumentative either. But It's amazing how many people have responded not to me, but other people's posts about me that include misinterpretations and assumptions. If they read what I wrote myself, it's a different picture.

The only "argument" I have is with people who insist that country is essential to the learning process on steel, because that's what the instrument is meant for. Sorry, but I don't accept that.

Please let me know where I "dismissed" people by telling them there advice was wrong, other than the discussion with Mike Perlowin where he refused to reply directly to anything I said, got angry, and decided I wasn't to be invited to his party.

That's the only one I can think of, and I just re-read the thread.

Back to the summary:

1. Updated commercial materials would be a great thing for the instrument.

2. Realizing that pedal steel doesn't have to be just a country instrument would be a revelation for a lot of people.

3. Personally, I'd like to find some materials more appropriate to the styles I'm interested in. Bobby and Bill Moore pointed me in that direction, for which I'm grateful.

So what is this "profoundly different way" that I see music as compared to anyone else? Or is it just profoundly different than anyone else you've encountered here? What tickles me in a way is that most of what I've suggested is pretty conventional and non-controversial stuff on guitar forums. We talk about books and videos all the time, and I've never seen the type of stubborn support of outdated materials I've encountered here.

And yes, I *was* warned in advance of coming here by a couple friends that there was a small group of core members who were opinionated and would not like ideas about new or updated materials. I was told to never mention Jerry Garcia or Robert Randolph. I was told if I crossed these folks they'd try to make my life difficult here and through email would tell me I'm not wanted, because I'm not "country" or "conventional" and have somewhat eclectic musical tastes.

They were right.

[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 08 November 2005 at 10:32 PM.]

Maybe you shouldn't get so worked up about what the rest of the world should do to help those multitudes of poor souls that want to learn the pedal steel and find Scotty's book offensive. Most any kid that can figure out how to buy a Carter Starter knows about this forum and can find learning material to suit his or her needs.

You are welcome here with whatever sort of music you are into. If you look at the Garcia/Randolph threads you will find the number of people that support him far out number the guys that don't.

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Bob
My Website

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Got Twang ?

Mark

[This message was edited by Mark Fasbender on 09 November 2005 at 04:14 AM.]

Teachers, such as Joe Wright, Herb Steiner Jeff Newman , who produce materials and packages first write them for the main stream of the MINIONS. And they did..and they do.

It's a business , not a hobby.

If folks are not buying them, and then not even using thme to get to the next level, what are we expecting ?

What are they to do ? Invest more time and energy and $$ when the mainstream material is still sitting ?

A musician who learns music..if they actually learn it, can apply what they learned to any genre...

Country uses C, F, and G..so does Rock, Blues and Jazz..

I learned how to say words when I was very young ( barely though) I then learned which ones I needed to use in different conversations.( also just barely)

Same with music, you learn the notes or phrases, then you apply them.

If you have a desire to play Classical, play Classical..why do we need a Classical Tab program ?

The answer is really quite simple..

IF someone believes there is a market for tabbed programs for a different genre..then THEY should produce it. NOT expect someone else to do it for them.

Learn the MUSIC first..then apply it as you see fit.

The biggest problem as I see it , and this is not just STEEL related, is that most learn how to play but don't bother learning what it is they are actually playing.

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 09 November 2005 at 04:38 AM.]

'Birds of Fire'--what a great work.
'A Lotus on Irish Streams' could have been transcribed for a piano or guitar beginner, and I would have loved to have that instead of Rainbow Dance, the Little Windmill (I'm making titles up, for all the little original piano pieces that have one note in the right hand, one note in the left).

Point being what's already been cited; the author would have to pay for the rights to use it; so he writes his own, as teaching the notes, timing, and expression is the function of the beginner's piece. It's boring to the beginner, but even a sixth grader knows why that's the way it has to be, and perseveres until he can move on into better pieces.

The teacher has the music store order enough copies for the class. The store doesn't carry everything that's available.

And if the teacher doesn't find material that's good enough, he can write out his own. Boy, would that be time-consuming.

So I have to be amazed at the amount of energy that Joe Wright, as an example, as devoted to a great body of work. That sort of dedication--wow, is all I can say.

So somebody would have to show the music store why stocking his, or Wally Moyers', material would be a commercially feasible.
But without doubt, I could learn more from these two sources than I'm even capable of imagining.

So, it's really silly to say

quote:

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for Bobby, who still thinks I want everyone to lose money producing stuff only I would buy....

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In short, if I don't like what's available, I'd write my own, for my own use.

It just doesn't do any good to complain about what's not available in the marketplace; it's up to some individual to fill the gap rather than waiting for someone else to imagine a gap and then fill it.

I'm trying to keep this impersonal, but it's difficult, Jim; and I realize that singling you out is making it personal, but it seems most of this thread has been about you. And if we don't seem clear about what you're trying to say, it's because we're not.

Mike Perlowin, for example: there are few forumites who share their experience so readily--or should I say, there are many, but few whose experience is so accessible.
A book on theory, two commercially available albums--I can hear the results of his studies.
But there are many who talk the talk, and I can't see through the words to how they've walked the walk. The ones who do the walk are the ones I look to. The list is long, and I've read about more sources in this thread than from any other resource--and any of them could teach me volumes.

If I don't seek it out, that's my problem.
And if I criticized any of them for what they haven't done for me, that'd be a big my problem.

It's easy to bemoan what's not available, or the demise in the popularity of the pedal steel (and I can't see that; I think it's really expanding its scope).

But to change it--that'd be up to me.
Or you.
I can't see the validity of criticising what's available, the sources or the purveyors.
Like the beginning piano student, what you do with it is up to you, not the teacher, the music publisher, or the piano store.

And for sure, it's not up to this forum.

Me, I'm looking for instruction on how to play dissonant music that's never been heard before. I want to play it really bad.

Can someone help me find some music instruction that's really bad?

[This message was edited by Charlie McDonald on 09 November 2005 at 05:54 AM.]

Everyone please read: I AM NOT LOOKING FOR NOR EXPECTING THERE TO BE DEDICATED INSTRUCTIONAL MATERIALS IN ROCK OR BLUES.

OK. We got that out of the way for about the 10th time. People keep making the assumption that's what I'm asking for, which I didn't.

Please read my last few posts beforre replying to me. They summarize - again - what I'd like to seee, which is what this thread wwas about, I thought:

1. Updating of current commercially available materials

2. More of a "breadth" of instruction - inclusion of more non-traditional materials.

That's as brief as I can make it. It's not all that earth-shattering.

Update things, widen the horizons and the market for both materials and instrument will expand.

quote:

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1. Updating of current commercially available materials

2. More of a "breadth" of instruction - inclusion of more non-traditional materials.

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These two suggestions are pretty vague. Other than "different than what's out there now," the collective "we" in the steel product business don't really know what new paradigm you're seeking.

I ask my private students what they want to learn, styles, tunes, etc. If I can help them out using my fields of expertise, I do; otherwise I send them elsewhere, if there is an "elsewhere."

So, I'll be a proxy for those in this thread who are interested and ask you the same question, to wit:

Specifically, what songs, styles, and non-traditional materials are you seeking, besides the aforementioned Johnny B Goode and Stairway to Heaven (both of which I find hopelessly dated, by today's standards of modern music ; ?

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 09 November 2005 at 06:57 AM.]

quote:

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"Stairway to Heaving."

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I read some where that Richie Blackmore said he was always nervous touring the US south, particularly Nashville, because the country players there were so much better than the players in the rock world.

[This message was edited by Cliff Kane on 09 November 2005 at 09:24 AM.]

I imagine Jimi Hendrix avoided playing anywhere near a Jimmy Bryant gig back in the 60's as well. Hendrix was a slow as cold molasses compared to Jimmy Bryant. IMO, neither Hendrix, Clapton, Page or Blackmore could hold a candle to Bryant when it came to speed, feel and precision. Luck for them, he wasn't very well known to the general public - but they sure knew who he was.

[This message was edited by Chris LeDrew on 09 November 2005 at 11:06 AM.]

But can you play every Beatles song note-for-note on steel?

Do you see the difference?

quote:

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"I can play every steel part from every Beatles record, note-for-note."
But can you play every Beatles song note-for-note on steel?

Do you see the difference?

Bobby, your post seems to sarcastically imply that we should leave steel out of music if it wasn't there to start with. My question to you - why?

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I appreciate Jimmy Bryant's chops and technical mastery of the guitar-but if I had to choose between he and Jimi Hendrix for cd's to bring to the proverbial desert island-Bryant is going to be left behind.

I asked for sheet music from the Beatles and the Stones and before long I was banging out basic versions of Michelle, Please Please Me, Satisfaction, etc.

Of course I was much better at sight reading music than I am now, all these years later- because like a lot of us here, becoming an adult got in the way of staying up with playing music for a long time-but having that ability transcended the limitations of instrument specific
learning materials.

I cut my teeth on Your Cheatin' Heart, The Hawaiian Wedding Song, and Nearer My God to Thee.

I turned my back on most of it except for the Your Cheatin' Heart type stuff, but now have come back around to the Hawaiian and the gospel too.

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Mark

[This message was edited by Mark Eaton on 09 November 2005 at 12:47 PM.]