posted 09 December 2001 12:41 PM         

quote:

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How come violinists, cellists and bassists almost never change their strings?

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Because they are cheap and don’t want to spend the money?? Seriously, I don’t know but you are correct. I suspect that the nature of the instrument is such that an older string may produce a more mellow tone which is pleasing to the player. I am certainly not a fiddle player, so I am just guessing.

I remember playing a job in Laredo, TX earlier this year with Ricky Turpin. About half way through some kick off he broke a string, but finished the kick just fine (which to my way of thinking was NO mean feat in itself!). He turned around to me and said, “You got it!”, then ran to the back of the stage where his fiddle case was. Darned if he didn’t change the string, re-tune, and come back to play the ending of the song with the band! At the next break I mentioned to him that I had never seen a fiddle player break a string on stage. Ricky got that “Turpin” grin on his face and said, “Oh, it happens from time to time. Hell B., that string had been on the fiddle for over 4 years!” I thought “Yikes!! Now THAT is string longevity!!”

posted 09 December 2001 01:30 PM         

Let's face it...the 3rd string on E neck is a problem. That's why there were so many replys. Is D9 tuning out of the question on an S-10? Hey, I'm just askin!

posted 09 December 2001 03:13 PM         

The standard G# note of the E9th
tuning is pulled up 1/2 tone to
the "A" note at the 3rd position.
If you go above the "A" note, using
an .011 string, the stress will destroy the string. The .011 is
not capable of tolerating the B flat pitch. It will snap like a
rattrap if you venture above the
"A" note, even to the slightest
degree. Try flatting your G#'s a
silly iota. If you have no luck,
try a .010, increase your volume,
and practice a lighter attack.
Steel guitars sound great tuned to
a D9th. Many players of the past
preferred the D9th over the E9th.

Bill H.

[This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 10 December 2001 at 01:56 AM.]

posted 09 December 2001 07:46 PM         

Somebody figure it out, and you'll get the Nobel Prize of Steel Guitars. Metaphorically speaking.

posted 09 December 2001 09:20 PM         

By D9 I meant that the 3rd string would go down to F# - not up higher.

I've heard there used to be D tuning years ago but perhaps the rest of the strings felt a bit floppy to the touch? I'm sure somebody knows the answer to that one.

Anyway, I was just thinking of a "less stress" idea for the 3rd. Too bad a string company can't come up with a metal that won't snap easy. Seems like the answer to that one is "not yet"..

posted 10 December 2001 02:49 AM         

He then goes on to suggest using a material with higher strength, but one of the only ones out there is Platinum. Now we're talking about 8 bucks a STRING, not simply 8 bucks for a dozen...

The thing is, though, if you tune down one note on all of your strings, you'll functionally have to be that much more careful up there on those high frets. You'd have to be closer to the changer to get the same old notes, and that means your margin for error is much smaller. That's all, really. Maybe we can just get everybody else in the world to change THEIR tuning. We're the ones that make it sound good anyway, why should we suffer?

posted 10 December 2001 04:38 AM         

I enjoyed reading your input to
Brett. The "design constraints"
quotation, made by the engineering
professor is most interesting.
If you could, would you try to get
a quote from him regarding "RAPID
OXIDATION?" Thank you for your
effort, should you succeed.

Bill H.

[This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 10 December 2001 at 04:42 AM.]

posted 10 December 2001 07:15 AM         

Thanks for the input on pitches,
and gauges. The mere mention of
Leo Fender, or Ralph Mooney gets
my utmost attention. Memories find
their way back, and the Fender 1000
once again prevails as the most
durable instrument in the world.
I refer to the materials utilized
in its construction. The ash wood,
cast aluminum frame, and quality
metals used, were intended to last
throughout a lifetime. I will state
however, that no advancements were
made in its development to prolong string life,and breakage was common with either the D9th or E9th tunings.

Bill H.

[This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 10 December 2001 at 07:20 PM.]

posted 10 December 2001 07:26 AM         

I currently deal with it by keeping the machine head peghole smooth. Every couple of months I rub the edges with extremely fine sand paper then polish it so there are no burrs to cut into the string.

Then, I change the 3rd "carefully" at both ends - every 4 hours of playing time. That seems to help on my particular guitar.

Thanks for the input fellas.
Brett

posted 11 December 2001 02:43 AM         

In your reply "just asking" when
you were contemplating moving down
a tone on your steel guitar's
tuning, I explained the advantages
of doing so. You then replied that
I didn't understand what you were
asking. There never was any doubt
in my mind, as to what you had in
your mind. The following are the
string gauges for a D9 chromatic
tuning:
1st. - .013
2nd. - .014
3rd. - .011
4th. - .014
5th. - .018 (plain)
6th. - .020 (plain)
7th. - .024 (wound)
8th. - .030 (wound)
9th. - .036 (wound)
10th. .036 or .038 (wound)

For the .010 string, either gauge string will give excellent results.
The changer will require new
adjustments as you move the E9th
down a full tone. Notes required,
are as follows, starting at string
number 1 :
E D# F# D A F# E D C A

Hundreds of thousands of beautiful
melodies have been played on this
accepted tuning by those who have
been ranked the best in the steel
guitar industry.

Bill H.

posted 11 December 2001 08:59 AM         

So now the thought occurs to me if they did it in Eb, what would it be like if the lead guitar, bass and fiddle would all tune down a whole tone as the steel would be doing in the key of D ?? I don't think I'd ever break enough third strings to try and do that !!

posted 11 December 2001 09:21 AM         

The fact by your own admission,
that the .012 does break, tends to
lend credence to the observations
made by many others before you.
Simply put, the advantages are non-
existent. One disadvantage which
is noteworthy, is the heavier gauge
string acts as an encumbrance to
the B pedal train, as it lugs the
.012 to an A note pitch. This
resistance can be picked up by the
sensitive foot. One thing to look
for to determine overstress, would
be a string that coils up like a
pig's tail when it is removed.
Your Williams steel guitar may be
an exception to the rule, but I'm
not accepting solutions that have
been found to be unbelievable by
the majority of steel guitarists.

Your sustain, and clarity would be
superior to the .011, if this ever
becomes standard practice through
mechanical changes. Thanks Chip
for the imformation.

Bill H.

[This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 11 December 2001 at 04:34 PM.]

posted 12 December 2001 03:38 PM         

Garnett

posted 12 December 2001 05:07 PM         

I have been fascinated with the
destructive power of oxidation for
a number of years. I was amazed to
to find that I could make a flameless cut through 1/4 " thick by 3' long steel plate in about one
minute and 15 seconds. The only thing visible, would be sparks shooting out at bottom of the plate. Absolutely, no flame!! The ferrous metals of the steel guitar particularly plain strings, are pitted while still in the package.
There is a direct association between oxygen and string life.The
process is slow oxidation.

Bill H.

posted 12 December 2001 06:01 PM         

quote:

---

...an older string may produce a more mellow
tone which is pleasing to the player.

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posted 13 December 2001 03:26 AM         

I haven't ever seen a "cold cut" of a steel plate; I tend to use an acetylene torch for that. What are the conditions of that? Do you just hose pure oxygen on it, or is there a heat source? (This might be better off done in an e-mail environment, as it has nothing to do with steel guitars or playing techniques.) However, under standard temperature and pressure, I still contest that the reason that particular string is breaking so frequently is because of the excessive stresses in that string, relative to the tensile strength. And if you leave a string on for too long, I think it's more likely to break simply because of the fatigue from being under so much stress for such a long period of time. I think that corrosion is a factor, but not as significant. I think that the stress on the string, and that string being significantly small in diameter is our problem here.

Just my $0.02

posted 13 December 2001 03:57 AM         

I wouldn't play out too much rope concerning the mellow tone string theory. For my listening pleasure, the first few hours of those distinguishable note clarities, which are heard emanating from the strings, are the most pleasing of all. Horsehair bows cannot be likened to steel picks when one chooses to weigh out string performances, not to mention the use of nylon found beneath the bow.

posted 13 December 2001 02:32 PM         

quote:

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Aluminum oxidizes, but not very quickly under normal temperature and air pressure. It's weakness comes from contact with Hydrogen, for some reason.

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Thanks-you.

200 to go...

[This message was edited by Steve Feldman on 13 December 2001 at 02:34 PM.]

posted 13 December 2001 06:55 PM         

It has been ascertained for a number of years, that aluminum is limited in many ways, in its practicality, when utilized in certain applications. I don't wish to stray from the thread, which pertains to the bent string theory, only to add that the use of aluminum is unparalelled for ease of handling, due to its light weight and manageability. Using aluminum for strings however, would be out of the question. The oxidation is still a problem that will exist, until the strings are constructed of a strong nonferrous metal.

posted 13 December 2001 10:39 PM         

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Emmons D-10 9x9, 1971 Dobro

posted 14 December 2001 12:24 PM         

------------------
T. Sage Harmos
www.harmosmusic.com

posted 14 December 2001 05:07 PM         

Wow! Was I ever bowled over by the seemingly interminable patent attorney's explicit, and consuming jargon. It would be of the greatest
interest to hear that the proposed
specialty strings, could be designed to fill the needs of steel
guitarists. Have you heard anything that would pertain to literature which designates that our 3rd string breakage problem has been
addressed by the inventor of the special alloys strings?

posted 15 December 2001 07:40 AM         

------------------

STEELDAYS 2002
my web-site
my bands CODand TSC

posted 15 December 2001 03:03 PM         

quote:

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How come violinists, cellists and bassists almost never change their strings? Even professional, orchestral players. I don't get that.

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I can't speak for fiddle and cello players, but I've had the same set of Thomastik strings on my string bass for about 24 years. I think part of the reason they last so long is that there are no frets to wear notches in them, and no steel bar to wear a flat spot. The windings are flat, so not much dirt and finger oil can get into them. I periodically slacken the strings one at a time, and wipe them with a cloth moistened with acetone. Tune 'em back up, and they sound like brand new for a week or so.

posted 15 December 2001 11:39 PM         

I have to pay greater attention when hitting the B pedal now, as I can't be lazy, or the
note[s] ain't gonna make the proper pitch[change]. The Williams U-12 is a lot stiffer on pedal B, than my old D-10 Sho-Bud. Sometimes I wish it weren't that stiff,
but I love the low 10th G# going to A.

Our old mutual buddy, Sammy Gibson, suggested I switch the 3rd str. from .011 to
.012.He uses an .012 too, and says it's 'louder' and doesn't get lost
sometimes in the volume & overall sound as the .010 & .011 can.

Maybe it's because the 'Willy' has a shortened scale and is a 'keyless' that my 3rd string, well, doesn't break 1/2 as much as the .010 on the Sho-Bud used to.

Then again, I don't play as much as I used to, and so the string breakage seems longer,
cuz the steel isn't being played every day.

posted 16 December 2001 04:51 AM         

I agree that there is none better
than Sam Gibson to represent the steel guitar, and to further its lasting durability, by introducing new ideas through experimentation.
Sam's happy-go-lucky nature, and wisdom has awakened many to the diversities of musical stylings, whenever he performs. His name is synonymous with steel guitar.

Chip, your pedals, and knee levers
have been modified, and slight changes in string gauges have been made to facilitate an advantageous approach in your playing style. I would like to learn more about your setup, and string gauges. Bridge to
bridge differences, I feel, will be keys in helping to eradicate to some degree, undue breakage of strings in the future. Perhaps I will get to hear you play the Williams steel in the coming year.

Bill H.

[This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 16 December 2001 at 05:05 AM.]

posted 16 December 2001 07:18 AM         

Not so with Fe-bearing materials, which are FAR more sensitive to further corrosion by oxidation than by any other process.
Aluminum oxide is simply not redox sensitive as are Fe-oxides. If you want to talk about material fatigue and corrosion, you are talking about apples and oranges when you compare oxidation of Al to the oxidation of Fe.

The bottom line - whatever mechanism of corrosion that you choose to invoke - is that corrosion of strings by ANY process is not something that, IMO, amounts to anything at all in determining string life....not unless you have a few tens of decades to sit around and wait.

284 to go...

posted 16 December 2001 08:55 AM         

I do not want to lose sight of a variety of phenomena which can occur during the manufacture of the
spring wire strings. Metallurgical references cannot wash away the problematic errors which take place
when certain guidelines are not met within the factories. A power glass will reveal differences in string surfaces, and reduces the chances of placing implicit trust in the finished product. The pitting found on string surfaces, tends to suggest the presence of impurities
introduced in their production.