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A bent string, is a spent string. (Page 1)
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The Steel Guitar Forum
Pedal Steel Archive
A bent string, is a spent string. (Page 1)
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| This topic is 7 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 This topic was originally posted in this forum: Pedal Steel |
| Author | Topic: A bent string, is a spent string. |
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Bill Hankey Member Posts: 1680 |
posted 06 December 2001 03:45 AM
I have deduced by installing the "Lucky 7" on my steel guitar at the 3rd string finger, that for all practical purposes, this device counteracts breakage at the point where constant snapping was assumed to be something other than a resolvable nuisance. The fact that the original .011 string is still intact since July of this year, lends credence to my explanation of undue leverage, and the resultant string breakage. Bill H. [This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 06 December 2001 at 04:11 AM.] |
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Donny Hinson Member Posts: 9192 |
posted 06 December 2001 05:20 AM
Well Bill, you have an indication that the device may be working. But statistically, you need a lot more testing for any conclusive results. I have had good luck (months of use) with some strings, and then again, I have popped 2 or 3 just getting to pitch. But you are working on the problem, and for that I salute you. I don't change strings often because I have no need to. Professionals (like Paul, Buddy, and Bruce) need that 1% to stay on top. I have no such aspirations, and it would be a waste of money for me to change strings every week. Some might argue that you should use "the best of everything", and take "every advantage you can". I believe this is true if you're a "big dog". But, if you're just a "hacker" (like most of us) all it gives you is a good feeling. Permit me an analogy.... When it comes down to brass tacks, I don't look for "sound", or "tone". I look for a guy that can play the damn thing! [This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 06 December 2001 at 10:19 AM.] |
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Jeff Lampert Member Posts: 2636 |
posted 06 December 2001 06:07 AM
Here comes 300 posts. |
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Steve Stallings Member Posts: 2065 |
posted 06 December 2001 06:31 AM
I have no interest in getting involved in a long, ponderous, pontification regarding strings. I find the entire concept regarding the "lucky seven" to be specious. Strings begin to go dead as soon as you expose them to oxygen. Even if you don't play them very much, a set of strings that is installed on a pedal steel is pretty much lifeless after as little as two or three weeks. Professsional musicians change their strings frequently. Why anyone would spend time developing a device to prevent breakage of a string, which should have been changed months ago, is difficult to understand.... ------------------ |
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Glenn Austin Member Posts: 626 |
posted 06 December 2001 08:45 AM
What's a Lucky 7 ? |
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Al Udeen Member Posts: 1164 |
posted 06 December 2001 08:56 AM
I dont see how anyone can disagree with an improvement that eliminates massive string breakage on, not only the 3rd string, but also the 5th string! this has been the most pesky & irritating aspect of pedal steels since day one! I installed the same feature on my 57 Sho-Bud#3 in the early 60s, In those days, string breakage was an epidemic! Congratulations! Bill! >Al Udeen |
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HowardR Member Posts: 5735 |
posted 06 December 2001 09:45 AM
This is a job for the Zebco 400!  |
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Steve Stallings Member Posts: 2065 |
posted 06 December 2001 10:05 AM
Al...As an analogy think of the "Emperors New Clothes". If you change your strings on a regular basis every couple of weeks, you will rarely break any strings. I believe I made a valid point and anyone who follows my advice will first of all, sound better, and secondly rarely break any strings. A lot of time and energy seems to be being directed at what essentially is a non-issue. I can't fathom players who moan and groan about string breakage when the darn thing is as lifeless as a wet noodle after being on the guitar a month. I recently bought a several month old D10 guitar. Reading back through the posts the original owner bragged that "This guitar doesn't break strings...the original factory set have been on it for four months without breaking!" Wow...was I ever impressed. When I got the guitar, the strings were dead and corroded. Really now folks...I'm not trying to be contentious here, though inadvertently, it may come across that way. There is NO massive The problem is not string breakage. The problem is folks not changing their strings.
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Pete Burak Member Posts: 2750 |
posted 06 December 2001 10:12 AM
We Want PICTURES!!! You. C'mon Bill. |
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Jerry Roller Member Posts: 3906 |
posted 06 December 2001 11:20 AM
Steve, you surely have broken a string at a most critical and unexpected time. If that string could have held out til you replaced it you would not have been forced to replace the broken string in the middle of a song the rest of the band was having to play without you. If Bill's "Lucky Seven" had been in place that might not have happened. I have given his idea quite a bit of thought and I am convinced that he thinks it works so there has to been some merit to it. I am not in favor of playing on dead or even dirty strings but I sure would like to be able to avoid a prematurely broken string. Fair enough? Jerry |
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Steve Stallings Member Posts: 2065 |
posted 06 December 2001 12:19 PM
Yes Jerry....In all fairness to Bill, your assertation is correct. Perhaps my perception of Bills purported device is somewhat colored by reading through the voluminous prose of his "Dreams can become reality" thread. Quite frankly, I believe in the scientific method. I have seen no credible evidence that would lead me to conclude that: 1. The device exists 2. Such a device would work 3. A fundamental flaw in guitar design exists 4. There is any need for a "solution" Donny Hinsons "after the fact edit" of his post above, indicates that no real benefit is realized from the average player changing strings frequently. I am unsure of who he means. If it is "Joe Bedroom Picker" who doesn't leave his house with the steel, perhaps they don't feel the need to do this. I stand by my statement. String breakage is primarily a function of attempting to make a set of strings last four months...not an inherently bad design.
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Jeff Lampert Member Posts: 2636 |
posted 06 December 2001 12:24 PM
290 to go. |
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Bill Hankey Member Posts: 1680 |
posted 06 December 2001 01:07 PM
No precise moment could ever be determined, at which time the all important strings should be changed due to the fact that each string has its own timetable, or duration of usefulness. Some strings are more durable, while others tend to require replacement within a different time span. I would point out that the lack of clarity ensues as a collection of material, or small particles amass on the string surfaces. Give the strings a tissue test, or the white glove. Glide the tissue along the entire surface of each string, particularly at the bottom side where the accumulation is concentrated at its worst point. Once the collection is removed,the string will regain much of its original clarity, and vibration, because the muting effect caused by the collection, is no longer dampening the tonal qualities that are very important for listening pleasure. Over a period of time, the strings Bill H.
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B Bailey Brown Member Posts: 606 |
posted 06 December 2001 01:21 PM
I think changing strings should be based on the amount of playing time spent. For a Paul Franklin, I can well see why he changes them every week, and I agree with him. For a B. Bailey Brown, who plays a couple or three times a month as a “weekend warrior”, I change strings (complete set) about every 3 months and that is sufficient. Now, I do change the 3rd and 5th strings every 5th job and that has kept me from breaking those stings on the bandstand for some years now. I like that part! Quite frankly, if there were a device that kept strings from breaking, why would you want one? Strings are subject to oxidation and wear, due to very normal environmental conditions like temperature and humidity changes. When they oxidize…they go dead! They sound “dull”, have no “life” or tone left in them! I guess if you just play in your basement at home in a controlled environment that might be OK, but it is not acceptable to me on a bandstand. I want some “presence” and some tone out of my guitar strings. If I were to have some device that allowed me to keep a set of strings on a guitar for 8 months to a year, I wouldn’t use it! I would have 3 months of a good sounding guitar…and many months of a dull and dead sounding instrument. Good grief, as poorly as I play out in the field…I need all the help to sound good I can get!! B. Bailey Brown |
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Joey Ace Sysop Posts: 7232 |
posted 06 December 2001 02:12 PM
quote: Excellent point! I agree. You say you change your 3rd and 5th. I do too, but also include a new 4th(.014). The sound of an old 4th surrounded by new strings bothers me. -j0ey- |
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Glenn Suchan Member Posts: 1187 |
posted 06 December 2001 02:21 PM
Hey guys! Me an' Glenn Austin wanna know! What the heck is a Lucky 7? Sounds to me like the name for a can opener you'd use while camping. (No offense, Bill. It's just my own warped take on the world around me)  Keep on pickin'! BTW: 14 down, 286 to go! |
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B Bailey Brown Member Posts: 606 |
posted 06 December 2001 02:33 PM
Joey, It is a fairly excepted fact that each and every steel guitar is a different “animal”! Even guitars of the same brand, and same model, are a bit different. Each one of them is a “custom” built instrument, and I think that is what makes them so much fun to play! They each have a bit different personality. They don’t all sound the same, they don’t all “feel” the same. You have to figure out what they are going to do, live with it, and make them part of your life! They will treat you well and sound good, if you treat them well. If changing the 4th string works on your guitar, then that is what you need to do. I guess that was really the point of my post. Get to KNOW your instrument!! The more familiar you are with it…the better time you will have on some bandstand on a Saturday night! B. Bailey Brown |
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Herb Steiner Member Posts: 6119 |
posted 06 December 2001 02:40 PM
A guitar-playing metallurgist told me once that strings go dead and break because metals want to naturally return to their "ore" state and oxidation is the way they chose their return path home. He allowed as how that's why we paint the Golden Gate Bridge, to slow down the oxidation of the metal. The oxidation of strings begins as soon as the strings are manufactured, which is why old sets of strings sitting in a music store can sound dead even when they've never been on a guitar. Humidity and the chemistry of the player's perspiration hasten the oxidation process. The friction from playing increases the stress on the strings and the chance for string failure. Do we on the Forum actually believe that if the technology to make a string that could last 6-9 months existed, the string companies would make such a string? Only if they could charge $65 for a set of the suckers! ------------------ [This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 06 December 2001 at 02:47 PM.] |
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B Bailey Brown Member Posts: 606 |
posted 06 December 2001 02:51 PM
Ahhh…well said Herb! I think that is what I said, except you were a bit more ELOQUENT! I wish I had the Herbersters gift of words. B. Bailey Brown |
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Steve Stallings Member Posts: 2065 |
posted 06 December 2001 02:54 PM
At the top of the forum page is a links bar. Click on "Articles" and read the article by Paul Franklin on strings. Glen..the lucky seven is a new patented device that will transport the average human seventeen miles on five cents worth of electricity, won't tip over, and looks like a little scooter.....ooops, wait a minute...that's wrong, that was "It", not the lucky seven. Yeah now I remember... the lucky seven is a new movie coming out about a casino heist...no, darn it....that's "Oceans Eleven". uhhm, give me some time, I'll think about it while I change strings. (sorry bill) ------------------ |
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Steve Stallings Member Posts: 2065 |
posted 06 December 2001 02:56 PM
The heck with Herbsters word skills...give me his guitars! ------------------ |
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Al Udeen Member Posts: 1164 |
posted 06 December 2001 03:10 PM
I've seen well known players break a string, on TV, whether it be the Opry, Nashville Now, & many live shows, In most cases the string or strings were just put on or maybe a day or two old, I believe all players would prefer not to break strings at anytime, we all know this is 98% impossible! Bill H. has been nice enough to let each of us see his adapter! Plus he sent pictures "at his expense," to anyone requesting such, including myself! Tom Brumley, plays a guitar "Anapeg" that does not break strings! does anyone believe that he leaves his strings on for 8 months? Thanks Again,Bill! au |
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Bill Hankey Member Posts: 1680 |
posted 06 December 2001 03:18 PM
The "The Lucky 7" is a device that I built in the month of July, last summer. It is called Lucky 7 because it resembles a 7. It is mounted behind the 3rd changer finger, and is intended to eradicate the excessive breakage problems which have existed since the pedal steel guitar first evolved, and the Nashville tuning became commonplace. That .011 string at the 3rd finger will get your attention in most episodes of breakages. The little ambusher has been known to tear flesh from the hand. I am more at ease while playing my steel at the present time, knowing that the .011 string breakage has been subdued. Bill H. |
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Lee Baucum Member Posts: 3201 |
posted 06 December 2001 03:26 PM
I don't think the boys from Texas are sold on this idea. Did anybody else come to the same conclusion? ------------------ |
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Glenn Suchan Member Posts: 1187 |
posted 06 December 2001 03:33 PM
Bill, Thanks for the info, Bill. Sounds like an ingenious device and I admire your inventiveness. While it may not be for everyone, I'm sure there are folks who will be interested in getting one. Best wishes to you and the Lucky 7. Keep on pickin'! |
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Gary Carriger Member Posts: 191 |
posted 06 December 2001 04:12 PM
How many are we up to Jeff? Gary |
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Steve Feldman Member Posts: 2983 |
posted 06 December 2001 04:33 PM
The Hebster said: quote: I would suggest that the oxidation of metals in guitar strings is negligible in comparison to two other factors: 1) the rate of dirt, oil, grime, and booger buildup in the strings, and 2) the metallurgical strains and consequent reduction of elasticity, etc., resulting from physical/mechanical factors that affect string vibration dynamics, ability to return to non-stressed conditions accurately(hysteresis), etc. Actually, oxidation is really a change from - not a reversion back to - the 'ore natural state'. Iron ore minerals, for example, usually have reduced (+2) iron in their structures because they commonly formed in marine (or some other oxygen-depleted) environment, and oxidation is the the conversion to the (+3) form as these guys are exposed to water and air, particularly wetting and drying cycles. I'm not sure that anyone could make a string that stood up to 6-9 months of mechanical stress, no matter how clean you kept your hands or how well you wiped the strings after playing. 275 to go.... [This message was edited by Steve Feldman on 06 December 2001 at 04:33 PM.] [This message was edited by Steve Feldman on 06 December 2001 at 05:00 PM.] |
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Steve Stallings Member Posts: 2065 |
posted 06 December 2001 05:25 PM
Befor we go much further, I would like to clarify my stance. Bill, I admire anyone who is a "tinkerer" and invents things. If the "lucky seven" floats your boat, then by all means, go for it. I simply think that string breakage is more closely related to folks using the "play it till it breaks" rotation concept. Interestingly enough, there is an extended life string on the market, though not targeted at steels. Elixir strings were perhaps the first, but now there are plenty others out there. I tried Elixirs and did not like them on six string. I just put a set of the new extended life Martins on my Martin. At first blush, I like them. Perhaps we will move in this direction in the future regarding steels. Heavens knows I don't enjoy changing strings! One other thing Bill... After reading your rather verbose prose, I can only assume you were raised by a rabid band of Rogetonians. This cult is of course famous for it's daily six hour enforced recitation of Roget's ------------------ |
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Jerry Roller Member Posts: 3906 |
posted 06 December 2001 05:56 PM
Come on you guys. It is a fact that the 3rd string on E9th tuned to Ab and pulled to A is right at its limit from the time it is put on the guitar. It is stretched to the max. and we know that much tension on that small a string is the main reason it breaks much sooner than the others. Try tuning it a mere 5 hertz sharp and see how it holds up. I admire Bill for his ingenuity and I really am impressed with his patience and easy going attitude not to mention his mastery of the English language! I bet if this was introduced to us by a really big name player or builder many of us would be trying to get our hands on it. Since I have not seen or tried the "Lucky Seven" I choose to wish that it would work and that I might one day have about seven of them (if they work). By the way, is anyone counting? What number am I??? Jerry |
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Bill Moore Member Posts: 512 |
posted 06 December 2001 06:18 PM
Does oxidation also affect the strings of a grand piano? Or a concert size harp? How often are those strings changed? Bent strings will eventually break, and some guitars bend them more sharply then others. My old MSA didn't break strings as quickly as my current Carter, the MSA had a greater radius on the changer, the Carter bends them a bit more sharply and they tend to snap sooner. I think it's something we have to adjust to and live with if we play the instrument. But, good luck, Bill, with your attempts to solve the problem. [This message was edited by Bill Moore on 06 December 2001 at 07:18 PM.] |
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Pat Burns Member Posts: 2896 |
posted 06 December 2001 06:18 PM
...c'mon, guys, use the "Burma Shave" method of posting if you want this to get to 300...one phrase per post.. |
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Sage Member Posts: 525 |
posted 06 December 2001 06:20 PM
Steve and Steve- Yes, rust never sleeps. Like the Golden Gate, salt makes it worse. I could build you guys an oxygen-free PSG box, complete with those rubber glove things common in bead blasters and plutonium trigger assembley rooms. No more O2, no salt, a lucky 7, and never again would a string break! Your choice of formica! (hazmat suit with onboard aromatherapy optional) [This message was edited by Sage on 06 December 2001 at 06:55 PM.] |
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Al Udeen Member Posts: 1164 |
posted 06 December 2001 07:55 PM
I agree that not everyone is sold on this idea! but I certainly am, due to the fact that I'm with the guys that dont want to buy .011s by the dozen! By the way, I got a flyer from Seymour today, & he's got a special on .011s [24 for 9.99] Time to line up & get em while their hot! au |
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Ken Lang Member Posts: 2467 |
posted 06 December 2001 09:01 PM
If salt on the strings (from spilled Margaritas) is so bad for them, how come they last the night and I don't. (Hic.) |
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Glenn Austin Member Posts: 626 |
posted 06 December 2001 09:11 PM
There is a bass player I know who has been playing the same sets of strings since 1980. I nearly fell over when he told me that. After every gig he removes them and soaks them in methyl hydrate, and then lets em dry. He rotates about 10 different sets. This guy is not a string bender, so he doesn't ever break a string. Somebody ought to invent a changer bridge thats like a Floyd rose bridge. On a Floyd you have to cut the ball ends off the srings and then lock them down. When you bust a string on a Floyd Rose guitar, it always breaks at the bridge, so the trick would be to unwind some off the tuning key and then lock it back into the bridge. It helped with the problem of having 5 old strings and 1 new one. In all honesty I prefer the sound of a new set of strings, but Lucky 7 sounds like a good idea to me. Sometimes I'm too busy to change my strings, especially since I bought this freakin' computer.
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Michael Garnett Member Posts: 893 |
posted 06 December 2001 09:53 PM
(Harps are mostly gut or nylon nowadays strung when you get up into the higher notes, the ones with the highest stress on them. Also they are pretty good sized gauge, and being polymers, are not susceptible as such to oxidation.) First off, most of the strings on a Grand Piano are copper wound, last time I opened up the old bessy back home. That changes things, obviously, because now we are comparing apples to oranges when it comes to oxidation types, but yes. Oxidation affects any metal that is susceptible to oxidation, which is pretty much all of them. The continuum of any particular string has some set tensile strength (or maximum allowable stress). If you take a perfectly new, perfectly manufactured string with no defects, and pick it hard enough, or wind it tight enough, it's going to break. Now, when you start letting that string corrode, the corrosion flakes off, and it effectively gets smaller in area, increasing the stress (the same constant force, divided by a smaller area this time) on the string at that point. Combined with the frequent vibration strain and change of load on the string (raising and lowering), these small pits and scratches get bigger. If the new stress is too much for the material's tensile strength, the string is a goner. That means you can pick with the same force, but break an "older" string. The reason you don't see as many breaks on bigger stringed instruments (bass, piano, cello, harp, whatever it is) is a combination of the strings being much bigger, longer, and played through a different means. The guitar's changer might add a bit of stress there, but look at the broken string. Where does it break? Right at the changer? Further up the neck? Or right where you're picking? As an Engineer(ing student), that would give me a clue as to the cause of fracture. The place where the stress is highest, all other things being equal, is where I'd want to watch for breakage. What a wonderful study break for my mechanics engineering final tomorrow. I think I'm ready for that test. Sorry to be so lengthy. Oh, and Steve, I think the word you're looking for instead of "Thesaurus" was "Lexicon." "I used to not be able to spell Aerospace Engineer, NOW I ARE ONE." Garnett [This message was edited by Michael Garnett on 06 December 2001 at 09:57 PM.] |
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Jim Cohen Member Posts: 8715 |
posted 06 December 2001 10:17 PM
How come violinists, cellists and bassists almost never change their strings? Even professional, orchestral players. I don't get that. |
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Michael Garnett Member Posts: 893 |
posted 06 December 2001 10:56 PM
It's all about the stresses in the strings, it's all about the stresses in the strings! Other instruments don't get anywhere near what we do to a string on such a short neck. We're apparently an abusive bunch, instrumentally speaking. That and the .011 string is apparently purdy durned tight to start out with. Garnett |
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Ricky0ne1 Member Posts: 215 |
posted 07 December 2001 02:41 AM
I just painted my strings  |
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Bill C. Buntin Member Posts: 642 |
posted 07 December 2001 05:59 AM
I've wondered that too JIM! Lots of guitar players I know feel like I do, that after a couple of weeks, its time to change, regardless, but them fiddle players just keep going and going. Whats up with that?? |
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Secondly, even the smallest strings on the grand are pretty hefty, even in comparison to those of the steel. There's usually three of the smaller strings also. That means the stresses within the string (force divided by cross-sectional area) are quite a bit lower, then divided between the three strings. Thirdly, a piano strikes the strings with a felt pad, not a metal pick. It's a much more smooth stress loading state, and the strain (extra displacement of the string divided by original length) on the string is larger in the steel guitar, simply because the strings are much MUCH shorter. Stress and strain are directly related by the modulus of elasticity, or the measure of how "springy" something is.