Today while jamming w: CrowBear and a Jazz Bass Player, i repeatedly used several of the ideas John Steele was discussing above and i only looked at them last week ! :ee:
(including BE's altered scale/lick)

This Stuff Works and not just as a sales tool for Tylenol.......et voila !
Bonne nuit les petits

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Steel what?

[This message was edited by CrowBear Schmitt on 12 May 2003 at 05:40 PM.]

quote:

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..."summertime", G.Gershwin. If the head starts in Cminor, third fret, wouldn't the substitution be the BdMaj7 mode at the 5th fret?

---

You're correct Byron, ...BbMaj7 DOES substitute for Cm7 ... and is probably the most commonly used scalular substitution for Cm7; But obviously Eb6 (CHORD) subs for the Cm7 chord since that's where we're playing Cm7 CHORD at. It's not because Eb6 scale subs for Cm7 because it doesn't; It's the BOX created by Eb6 and F6 together that give us the FDominant7 scale in the box that subs for Cm7. That's also the box for BbMaj7! Same identical notes; BbMaj7 scale = Cm7 scale = F7 scale, because they all have the identical same notes in their scales. BUT, the Major chords in the box ALWAYS sit on the upscale end fret of the box, while the minor chords ALWAYS sit on the downscale end fret of the box.

-----------------------

Here's 5 minutes' reading (and about an hour studying) looking at it from a few different angles and with a few more details ... with some repetition ... for those that might need it massaged a little bit:

In each minor scale / mode box, the minor signature chords will ALWAYS be on the down-scale end of the box ... while the Major signature chords in their boxes will ALWAYS be on the up-scale end of the box, ... and the remaining notes not voiced in the signature chord will be in the other end of each mode's 1 whole step box. That's why Cm7 CHORD sits at the down-scale end of the box at Eb6 ... and BbMaj7 sits at the up-scale end of the box, ... with both's scales subbing for each other.

There are 4 other substitutions for Cm7 (a total of 6 subs for any chord / scale / mode) ... and they are simply the remaining modes for Bb! BbMaj7 scale = Cm7 scale = Dm7b9 scale = E#4 scale = F7 scale = Gm7b6 scale = Ahalf.dim. scale. They all play over each other because they all have the same identical notes of their Mammy BbMaj7 parent scale. It's the context we think about the notes via different roots, chords, scales, modes, etc that creates the different flavors of movements we put into those notes. But not to worry about 6 different substitutions, ...I've mapped it out where 6th chord positions alone will substitute for any scale / mode and their signature chords.

I think and use 6th chords as the substitution (rather than the Maj7) because the vast majority of us already think, navigate and play relative to the 6th chord positioning; So it's a piece of cake once we know where to place that 6th chord in substitution to get each mode's signature chord we desire, ...and get the remaining notes for the full scale that are ALWAYS just 2 frets away and straight bar to boot. For a Cm7 substitution, most of us already think "Move the C6th chord up 3 frets" to make it a minor7. Add it's remaining sale notes 2 more frets up at F6 and we get the full scale box. And every other mode is just that simple; We just gotta know where to put the box.

First is to recognize that every single mode / scale and a signature chord for every single mode / scale can be found straight-bar with all the notes of the scale and the signature chord in a single 2 fret box. All the modes are right there in the box whether we move it along the neck or not. In effect, we move the box along the neck so the mode we desire therein matches the root note we desire on the string and fret that makes that mode in the box. But it's just a heck'uv'a lot easier to think of it terms of where the box needs to be located relative to the 6th chord position. For instance, to make a I6 chord a IMaj7 chord, I know that V6 = IMaj7 so I simply play V6. If I want to make I6 an Aolean minor I just play bVI6.

Let's examine the chord E6 at the 4th fret ... and a concept we're familiar with: We move the steel bar to where the note E occurs on the 2nd string ... and the box thereby affords us the E Dominant7 box. All of the notes of E6 scale that are not on that fret are ALL 2 frets down at the 2nd fret. Remember that the 6th chord IS NOT sitting in a Maj7 box; It's sitting in a Dom7 box. When we play western swing lines off of a 6th chord and it's remaining scale notes 2 frets down from the chord, we are using a Dom7 scale. That's why we get that Dominant 9th chord located 2 frets below a 6th chord. That 9th chord voicing bottom>up is b7,9,4,5,b7,9; Which are the notes of the 6th (Dom7) scale that weren't voiced in the 6th chord's 1,3,5,6,1,3.

One of the perimeter frets in a box will be the signature chord fret, most of which we're all already familiar with and use, while the other perimeter fret will have the remaining notes of it's scale. In the case of Major chords, the remaining notes are ALWAYS 2 frets DOWN from the chord. In the case of minor chords, the remaining notes are ALWAYS 2 frets UP from the chord.

Of course Steelers know that with a non-pedal steel we only get the voicing available on the fret that's afforded by the tuning (slants out of the picture for this discussion); So in many cases we only get a signature chord that has common elements of the chord we call it. For instance, the Maj7(9) position most of us are familiar with ... G6 for CMaj7/9 for example ... gives us a voicing of 5,7,9,3,5,7 without even the root note being there, ...but the remaining notes are 2 frets down in that Maj7 box (4,6,1,9,4,6). (That makes it obvious why we can't get a decent 6th chord out of the Maj7 box but use the Dom7 box where the full 6th chord exists). Similarly, the voicing of Cm7 at the 3rd fret (Eb6) is bottom>up b3,5,b7,1,b3,5 ...AND ....ALL the remaining notes of the Cm7 scale are also straight bar 2 frets UP at F6 (4,6,1,2,4,6). The entire Cm7 scale is right there in a 2 fret box. And so are every other mode depending upon which string and fret in the box is considered root.

Boy, now THAT'S about enough nose-pickin' fer one sittin' !

ALOHA (means I don't know if I'm comin' or goin')
Denny T~
cr2003wdt

[This message was edited by Denny Turner on 23 May 2003 at 06:44 PM.]

Without question, being able to play the simply three note arpeggios (triads) found in the box's (extensions) is a great place to build a foundation to make all the different positions/substitutions relate to the changes found in a given song. If you don't learn what the intervals are in the different chord/scale box's, your just shooting in the dark and making it much harder on yourself. This approach works on other tunings as well and also makes it easy to help understand other well known steel players, as far as their approaches to a given chord progression. Being able to view a tuning as a tuning with different tuning names that all relate to each other, seems to make it easier for me to see the overall layout of a tuning. Thanks again Denny, your one of the great non pedal steel teachers out there and I will always owe you a debt of gratitude for hipping me to this information about steel.

Thank You for the kind words. But let's get off on the right track here: I ain't doin nothin extra-ordinary at all; I was just in the right place at the right time when the modal "map" jumped off the fret board at the same place and time I had paper and a pencil in my teeth searching for it. I guess it was lookin for some grey-matter to give it legs.

I do play 6 strangs mostly anymore; A little blue MOTS Magnatone, using it's little matching amp as a monitor close by my shoulder and the Fender Vibrosonic Reverb sittin on top of a K-140 loaded Boyer hidden in the back; Mostly because squeezing trick out of a "little plastic board and tiny little plastic amp" is lotsa fun! But I also play a '55 Rick Console 518 with 10 strings close, 8 in the middle and the far neck empty to hold my ashtray, "sody-pop" and lamp.

Regarding expanding the modal map to more than 6 strings; I don't think it's needed: It doesn't matter how many strings you would have as long as the notes therein are 1,3,5,6. It's that grouping that keeps the major step sequence in the box on a 6th tuning by the 5th note being replicated 1 fret down from the 6th note in the box, and thereby putting the half-steps in order while the box is a whole step wide. That STEPS arrangement affords and locks in the mode steps sequence.

As long as pedals are only modulating 1,3,5,6 (for instance, I, IV and/or V and vs/vs) then the boxes would remain the same for any notes 1,3,5,6. A6 modulated to D6 by pedals would still provide D6 = AMa7, or D6 = Bmin7 etc. Obviously, if there was a Maj7 note in the tuning or pedal modulation you wouldn't have a Dominant 7 box, ...and in the case of the common C13, the dominant 7 carried down to the low perimeter fret of the box would become a b6 which would also not fit the modal sequencing in the box ALTHOUGH ANY OTHER REMAINING 1,3,5,6 WOULD. I'm sure Tom Morrel and Jr. Brown don't have much problem with that extra b7 note in their 13th tuning! Similarly a 9th that might be voiced in the box's signature chord as is trick for a 1st string on a 6th tuning for instance (or via a steel with more levers and gears than an old Road Ranger or Maxidine) would move down to a 1 in a Major box but would not fit upward into the minor boxes because it would be Maj3rd and by inference would disturb the modes derived therefrom.

Mo mumbo-jumbo:

It stands to reason that a pedal&gear-jammin Roth Rat could mentally keep up with his 1,3,5,6 voicings on a fret separate from it's exotics, and use the modal boxes OR also substitute his in-mode chords and scales similarly / easily; But when one arm is wrapped around the stir'n wheel while the other two are trying to shift gears and keep the pyrometer from meltin the glass, then it's pretty much every man for himself in figurin' out where he's at. However, Maurice Anderson has some excellent larnin material on chord/scale subsitution for an 18 wheeler steel; As a number of other teachers / authors do.

Besides the simplicity of navigating modes and substitution by my 6th chord method; The Maj7 SCALE on ANY instrument can ALWAYS be used to play ANY of the "church" modes in substitution SINCE THE MAJ7 IS INDEED THE MAMMY JAMMER OF EACH AND EVERY "CHURCH" MODE (I have spanish guitar scale substitution lessons for that). Example: If the band is playing Jazz in Dorian (minor7 root key), all you gotta do is drop down 1 whole step from the dorian root note and play Maj7 notes (Dmin7 = CMaj7) NEVER HAVING TO CHANGE SCALE NOTES A SINGLE TIME through a I-IV-V chord structured song ... or ANY song that remains in it's mode; And if a song modulates to another church mode then you can simply go to it's mammy Maj7 scale. This also works wonders for Bass Geetar / Fiddle. If the song is just loose minor, then the Maj7 can be subbed for the dorian and aeolean (pure minor mode) and even moved into Phrygian if'n yer tongue gets to hangin way out there. There are also more than a few pickers who don't realize that the Maj7 scale or parts thereof will perfectly make up their diminished passages by the Locrian half diminished mode which is MUCH more melodic to mode than a full diminished passage.

I have also found it extremely beneficial to practice playing Major scale notes and even other favorite scale structures in substitution for other scales / chords / modes BECAUSE IT BREAKS THE CHAINS of our thinking of those scale resources relative only to their commonly thought-of root note. ALSO, once a picker realizes that a Maj7 scale or any other church mode scale ALL have the Maj7 step sequence just like a slide rule, then placing that Maj7 scale (or any of the others if they prefer) at the right fret in substitution gives them the ability / arsenal to play the notes of any of the other church modes' scales OR chords simply by correct planting up / down the fretboard.

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Well, there I go pickin my nose again!

ALOHA,
Denny T~
Geetar Bedlam
cr2003wdt

[This message was edited by Denny Turner on 23 May 2003 at 02:06 AM.]

Thanks for the kind words and stuffs you so appropriately supplement the ideas on the forum with.

I hope thangs are still going smoooooothe as a Mai Tai under a palm there in Sandy Eggo.

If'n yer gonna do one of them "high-war-yun" cruises; Might I suggest slippin a kiss of distant echo/reverb in yer rig. It seems to remarkably add depth and scope to folks' dreams. If'n yer playin a console, be sure it's got sticky rubber feet! Buy some of those "silicone" rubber shower / counter anti-skid pads for under every piece of yer rig. Carry at least a small CD player for yer breaks to keep the ambiance going; And Dancin hula to it with the OLDER ladies will do wonders for the kitty ... and the mana of thangs.

ALOHA,
Denny T~
Geetar Bedlam

[This message was edited by Denny Turner on 14 May 2003 at 08:06 PM.]

P.S. If and when I make that slow boat to Hawaii, we will have ta try and party some! I have some questions about "Grandular trichomes resin glands, hehe". Hey, you going to Makakilo Brah? Aloha...

[This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 21 May 2003 at 11:52 AM.]

What I did was make myself all the "three fret modal box's" found in the key of C, and only wrote out the intervals found in those modes, without naming any notes. I then highlighted the root notes of each modal box and used a "C6 master note chart" of the whole neck of the steel to find the locations to any mode in any key, works great! I guess this is why Denny picked the box's that he did, duh...

I think this way of using Denny's approach is much easier to use right off the bat if you already understand the how's and why's of the modes. Maybe Denny really is some kind of genius for showing us how simply it is to apply modes to the steel. I haven't found any other web sites or books on steel that talks about modes on the steel in such a way. I find that Denny's approach to steel makes it easier to see chords (big and small) and the partial chords, because you have all the intervals at your command. Combine this with the major and minor blues scale and 6th interval etc. and you got it going on if you can swing your notes and phrase over a given chord progression. Makes improvisation much easier. . What a trip...

[This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 16 May 2003 at 09:23 AM.]

Dial in your tunin' (change open notes with +/-) ... pick a scale, mode, chord, etc. and let 'er rip.

Look no Hands

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www.horseshoemagnets.com

[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 15 May 2003 at 05:36 PM.]

[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 15 May 2003 at 07:44 PM.]

Ionian Major7/9
|6| |7|
|4| |5|
|9| |3|
|1| |9|
|6| |7|
|4| |5|
Dorian Minor7
|5 | |6|
|b3| |4|
|1 | |9|
|b7| |1|
|5 | |6|
|b3| |4|
Mixolydian Dom7
|9 | |3 |
|b7| |1 |
|5 | |13|
|4 | |5 |
|9 | |3 |
|b7| |1 |
Aolean Min7b6
|1 | |9 |
|b6| |b7|
|4 | |5 |
|b3| |4 |
|1 | |9 |
|b6| |b7|
Locrian Min7b5
|b7| |1 |
|b5| |b6|
|b3| |4 |
|b9| |b3|
|b7| |1 |
|b5| |b6|
Lydian Maj7+4
|3| |+4|
|1| |9 |
|6| |7 |
|5| |6 |
|3| |+4|
|1| |9 |
Phrygian Min7b6b9
|4 | |5 |
|b9| |b3|
|b7| |1 |
|b6| |b7|
|4 | |5 |
|b9| |b3|

1 = Ionian = C
2 = Dorian = D
3 = Phrygian =E
4 = Lydian = F
5 = Mixolydian = G
6 = Aolean(natural minor)= A
7 = Locrian = B

You will find all of these modes are all in the same 3 fret space on your neck, fret 5 to fret 7. Start by locating the basic major and minor triads etc. found in each mode and the substitutions will start to sound like they fit the 1,4,5 chord progression.

[This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 21 May 2003 at 11:55 AM.]

And a perfect fit for this MASSIF thread.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 16 May 2003 at 02:08 AM.]

For these whole step boxes (C6 tunin')....

Nut = From the tonic towards the nut
Bridge = From the tonic towards the bridge

String 1&5 tonic ... "nut"    = Locrian (7)
                 ... "bridge" = Aeolian (6)
String 2&6 tonic ... "nut"    = Myxolydian(5)
                 ... "bridge" = Lydian (4)
String 3 tonic   ... "nut"    = Phyrigian (3)
                 ... "bridge" = Dorian (2)
String 4 tonic   ... "nut"    = Dorian (2)
                 ... "bridge" = Ionian (1)

patterns

Just joinin' in the fun"

[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 16 May 2003 at 07:00 AM.]

It's important to know that the underlining harmony is what you are using as a guide post with your runs etc. There are inversions of Denny's modal box's all over the neck, look for them and find patterns that you can interweave with every thing else, always being aware of the underlying chords.

Like I said before, chord arpeggios are a good place to start because those notes are always choice and correct. Jazz approaches are too deep a subject to get into here, but I would suggest "Mark Levine's improvising Jazz piano book" as the book to get if you want to know the meat and potatoes of modes and other useful jazz approaches that you can inject into you western swing playing etc. Notes is notes no matter what instrument you play and piano is a great way to see theory approaches even if you don't play piano, ya dig? When I study non pedal steel tab or record copy a steel song, I always try and see what the intervals are relative to the underlying chords of the song. You really start to understand someone's style this way. After awhile you don't have to think about it cause your on auto pilot when your playing.

[This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 16 May 2003 at 07:37 AM.]

P.S. Here is a easy way to remember what string each mode has it's root note on and if it's extentions are found 2 frets up or down from the opposite side of the modal box that has the root note in it. I'm using word associations with 2 easy to remember phrase's.

There are 4 up extention modal box's with the first letter of each word in the phrase standing for one of 4 modes and strings 1,2,3 and 4 =

A = Aolean = root note/string 1
Lady = Lydian = root note/string 2
doesn't = Dorian = root note/string 3
interrupt = Ionian = root note/string 4

And there are 3 down extention modal box's with the first letter of each word in the phrase standing for one of 3 modes and strings 1,2 and 3 =

Let = Locrian = root/string 1
me = Mixolydian = root/string 2
party = Phrygian = root/string 3

C6 mantra:

4 Extentions up:
1 Aolean
2 Lydian
3 Dorian
4 Ionian

3 Extentions down:
1 Locrian
2 Mixolydian
3 Phrygian

This should help ya untill it all becomes second nature.

[This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 21 May 2003 at 11:58 AM.]

As Rick Aiello pointed out, it's easier I think to find any modal box position by it's root note, so don't get confused by Denny's approach and the purely root note approach, they are after the same thing. This mode stuff on steel is kinda complicated.

I stated up above a couple of post's that all the Modes for the key of C are found between the 5th and 7th frets. You also find that there are different named modal box's that share a common fret and set of intervals, but they all have the same root note i.e. Starting at the 14th fret and going towards the nut, root note C:
14 fret fret to 12 fret = C Lydian
12 fret to 10 fret = C Mixolydian
10 fret to 8 fret = C Aolian
8 fret to 6 fret = C Locrian

The squence then changes to this:
7 fret to 5 fret = C Ionian
5 fret to 3 fret = C Dorian
3 fret to 1 fret = C Phrygian

Then it goes back again to the first sequence:
2 fret to 0 fret = C lydian

As you can see this covers the whole neck, but how do you make music with this? Sorry, I'm still working on that!!!

[This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 21 May 2003 at 12:00 PM.]

I'll post another message about the root, vs interval, vs signature chord navigation thang here in a bit.

I noticed a paragraph of Jesse's that kinda fits real good into the application and understanding of modal thinking applied over the chord changes:

quote:

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One thing I really like to do is play in the key of E (4th fret) and combine Jerry Byrd's (Honky Tonkin) licks and positions with Denny's substitution positions along with the E Major blues scale. When going to the 4 chord(A), I stay at E6 and use Denny's major 4 chord "a perfect fourth up" from the one chord substitution(extensions 2 frets down) in yer 1,4,5 progression, only I play an A7 arpeggio sliding into other notes to and from the chord tones and it sounds real hick.

---

GREAT. That's how the modal subs iz 'sposed to work ....in my ear anyway! You got it!

Check it out:

Blues Major is in the E6 Mixolydian box MODE. Minor blues (Dorian)lays over just about anything, especially dom7/9 in the tonic which is what the E6 is again; AND the Dorian box is ALSO the IV7 box ...both STILL being the direct sub for the E6 box Mixolydian mode. That IV7 "extensions" fret which is also the Dorian signature chord fret, is what makes Dorian sound so remarkable when a Idom7/9 goes to the IV chord. Even if a Player has been standing on Dorian during the I7 chord, ...as soon as it goes to IV chord, the Dorian says / sound EXOTIC IV7/9 STUFF. Jr. Brown is a master of carefully using the "extensions" fret in the boxes where the "exotic" voicings reside that you don't often hear and therefore why they sound remarkable, ... not to mention that they're 9th voicings in the Major boxes. And what's happening when you stay in the IVMaj7 (E6) box for the IV change? Yer STILL hanging right there on the E6/7/9 box MODE. When you do the A7 arpeggio thang, you're back in the IV7 / IImin7 box subs for E6 again! IN MODE! "Everything" you describe is using the mode and it's notes in the E6 box! Were not the color of what you described doing so very important, a person could have vamped the E6 box (or any one of it's 6 sub boxes) through all the changes if they paid attention to the tone movement and note combo choices. But HOW did what you did create so much color? It's because by using the other boxes that substitute, you are able to access different harmony / chord / inversion voicings that are afforded the steel bar in different boxes even though the notes are the same or nearly the same, AND you get to use familiar licks congruent to certain boxes.

I am getting a big bang out of using licks I use for thinking in one box, and applying them to other substitute mode boxes. ALLOT of new stuff is coming out simply because in a different box the licks are being played at differnt harmony intervals of the same mode. It's actually starting to melt together more like different boxes for different voicings that the brain picks up on and converts to automatic pretty quickly. Using CMaj7/9 and G6(7) box licks for an Amin piece is a good example. Another example is that allot of the song Sleepwalk can be played through it's chord changes almost entirely in the IMaj7 / V6 box while using the VI Aolean signature chord fret for the IVmin voices (VI Aolean is the IV Dorian!). Another good example is using the Dorian signature chord fret as a "stem armature" around which MANY spanish guitar, blues minor, Dorian overlay and slide guitar licks reside with notes either side of the fret and lend to slurring up to or away from the fret; ...because Dorian overlays it's Mixolyian as nicely as it voices minor.

.......or sump'n like that.

Aloha,
DT~

[This message was edited by Denny Turner on 20 May 2003 at 08:12 AM.]

2. What is the root note/fret# for the dorian box that lays over the 4 chord A dom7 at the 9th fret?

I beleive the 7th fret notes are the 4 chords over lapping dorian and makes E dorian. This is what JB used on Honky Tonkin on the signature theme lick right? Both Peter Green and Santana made this approach famous in rock/blues! I see how this subs for the tonic dom7 chord. E dorian is interchangeable with E Blues/min pentatonic scales cause they share so many of the same notes. Holy smokes, I might have answered my own questions!

What I am not sure of, is what the root note would be for the Tonic E dom7 chords over lapping dorian? Would it be B dorian and if so why? Is it because B dorian's parent major scale is A major, the same parent major that E mixolydian comes from?

If I'm right about the 7th fret E dorian sub, I think that's pretty heavy. Thanks...

[This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 21 May 2003 at 07:26 PM.]

You DO have it; I just think you haven't quite yet reconciled some quite valid questions to realize WHY my system really is the shortcut that eliminates having to process allot of information and concepts that otherwise make modal orientation of substitution so complicated most musicians give up on it. So the trick for you as I see it is 2-fold: (1) TRUST my system to be the shortcut you will find it to be in the end, and; (2) Keep on searching for the very questions and answers you have been, ...which will provide the reinforcement that my system is valid as the shortcut.

Now in answering your questions (and please bear with me while I add basics for folks at different theory levels):

quote:

---

1. What is the root note/fret# for the dorian box that lays over the 1/tonic chord E dom7 box at the 4th fret?

---

We're lucky because you're asking for Dorian relative to our golden Homebase 6th chord (Mixolydian) box we're already at with the E6(7) box. The Dorian will ALWAYS be 3 frets up from the Homebase 6th chord whose root it is we want to turn into Dorian, ...E in this case. And of course 3 frets up from E gives us G Dorian signature chord (root on string 3) and since it's a minor the remaining "extensions" will be at "A6" fret (making it the same box as A7). So we're talking about using AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT MODE (Dorian) than E Mixolydian, as one CHANGE in mode / flavor to our digs in the key of E. And you did get it right; Dorian works because it is nigh identical to the Blues Minor. Tonic Dorian over tonic dom7/9 is more common in more styles of music than "Johnny B. Goode" licks! ....and it really squirts some NO2 into the pistons when the song goes to IV and the Dorian accentuates that A7/9 thang.

=================================

quote:

---

2. What is the root note/fret# for the dorian box that lays over the 4 chord A dom7 at the 9th fret?

---

Now you would have to qualify that question. If you're talking about Dorian in keeping close to the mode happenings of your Edom7 and Emin7 activity, then the Dorian is still E just like your first question WHICH IS THE SAME BOX AS A7. BUT if for some reason you just want to know where A Dorian is, it's STILL 3 frets up from the A6 root you're asking about changing from Mixolydian to Dorian. NOW, in the context of our discussion about working around the E6 box, A Dorian (Cmin7) would be a MODULATION of E Dorian up to a IV Dorian WHICH DON'T WORK TOO GOOD AT ALL because the E Dorian over E dom Major thang is working because E (tonic) Dorian is modal by itself through I, IV, V modulations; BUT if you modulate the minor over major thang with the chord change to IV, then the tones immediately start saying "something here ain't right" and changes the congruent mode context of TONIC modal tones, to a major/minor war of tones immediately apparant in the modulation of Dorian to IV.

==================================================

quote:

---

What I am not sure of, is what the root note would be for the Tonic E dom7 chords over lapping dorian? Would it be B dorian and if so why? Is it because B dorian's parent major scale is A major, the same parent major that E mixolydian comes from?

---

It depends upon what you're trying to do. If you're changing color by changing mode, then in the sense of E tonic it would be to change between E Mixolydian (E6 box) and E Dorian (A6 / Emin7 / etc box). BUT if you're looking for the Dorian with THE SAME MODE NOTES as the E6 Mixolydian box, then AMaj7 would indeed be the Mother Major7, making the substitution Dorian the B Dorian / Bmin7. HOLD IT; DON'T GET CONFUSED:
AMaj7 = Bmin7 = C#min7b6b9 = D(#4) = E7 = F#min7b6 = G#half-dim.
And guess what? THEY'RE ALL IN THE SAME BOX !!!!!!! THIS IS WHY IT MAKES NO SENSE TO HAVE TO KEEP UP WITH WHERE THE ROOT IS FOR MODES THAT ARE ALL DIRECT SUBS AND IN THE SAME BOX ANYWAY ! HOLD ON HOLD ON:

My system is NOT about finding what subs for ITSELF ... because everything that subs for each other are all in the same box. My system is about how to CHANGE a chord or scale from one mode to another, ... OR FIND the one you want by being able to navigate there instantly by a map of where it is relative to a chord / scale WE ALREADY KNOW such as the 6th chord or the Maj7. If I want to play Amin7, then I do so 3 frets up (bIII6 position) from A6 and apply the comically low number of minor rules to establish the scale box. If I want to play Adim(half) I do it at the bV6 position and apply the comically low number of minor rules to establish the scale box! If I'm a beginner and want to know where AMaj7 is, I now have a way to EASILY know it's located at the V6 and apply the comically low number of Major rules to establish the scale box.

--------------------------------

RELATED: The melody of the vast majority of songs are simply the notes of a single mode ... where the chords / rythm tones are doing the chord changing, ...and in popular music mostly just to establish a couple different ear views that by cultural habit are familiar cliche's that marketing, writers and the public cling to (BECAUSE THEY'RE MODALLY INTACT and leave lots of room to play allot of stuff that would otherwise clash with more chord definition of the mode). Break that mold and you get folks (epitomies) like Carlos Santana, Jeff Beck, Gary Gilmore etc. and the western swing greats who were not afraid to stretch the cliche's with more chords for the melody than I, IV, V. Bob Wills' boyz could be really cuttin head, but when the sanger stepped up to the mike to continue with the melody, it was right back into mode while the band did their chord changes, and fills applied around EITHER the mode or the chord changes. When we play Lead we constantly make our musical decisions in both accompanyment and solo based upon whether we're gonna voice the mode or going to voice the chord changes ... and there is a BIG difference which is quite apparant once we simply realize it and start to notice it. It is that recognition, even if we don't conciously know it, that takes us from playing "Wipe Out" Lead to more fluid movements either with the melody mode or around the chord changes.

--------------------------------

Uh-oh! Is that smell of burning rubber coming from my ears or mustache?

Speaking of which; I DID catch your Puna trichomes Brah; & You bet.

ALOHA,
DT~

Geetar Bedlam

[This message was edited by Denny Turner on 23 May 2003 at 02:14 AM.]

More important than the co-modes:

quote:

---

`Hi honey, take me home tonight and let me cook you some chicken, for the next 20 years. Which side of the bed you like?'

---

If'n a guy ain't already bridled in shiny vinyl, ...then that "20 years" stuff orta last just about long enough for her to whip up some ham'n eggs and biscuits'n red-eye gravy the next morning, ...just before the cab shows up. She can face the TV for one night! Huh?

First of all, I DIDN'T choose where to put the mode boxes; They are simply where they are on a sliding template due to their math, AND ARE IN NO OTHER TEMPLATE FORM. If I read your words right, you are mistaken about them being all over the neck relative to a given root; They aren't. SMALL PORTIONS are around the neck in different places, but the full mode boxes template exists ONLY in one place for each root you choose for it ... such as the template boxes that exist in only one place on the neck in my C6 relative chart (leave this chart page open to refer back to). Of course the neck IS chock-full of boxes "all over the place" for all roots because the template overlaps 11 times at each 1 fret movement up/down the neck to cover the entire neck for all 11 possible roots; But as a navigation template it never changes and only exists where it occurs relative to whatever root note it's applies to (unless you drop it on the floor and it lands upside down! ). Here's why:

Let's use Nashville / Berkeley numbers so we don't have to deal with 12 alpha root identifiers. Now let's look at the equivilant modes for each mode step:

IMaj7 = IImin7 = IIImin7b6b9 = IV#4 = V6(7) = VImin7b6 = VIIdim(half).

All the above scales / chords are IN THE SAME BOX.

With the C6 tuning we know that CMaj7 is in the G6 box. A Given. BUT PICTURE THE POSITION OF THE ENTIRE BOX between G6 and F6. CMaj7 Ionian is in there as well as Dmin7 Dorian, Emin7b6b9 Phrygian, etc etc etc.

Now, we can also see that if we want to make C a Cmin7 and utilize it's scale box, then the Maj7 in the box has to be down-scale 1 whole step; So the box has got to be moved downward 1 whole step so that BbMaj7 Ionian will give us Cmin7 Dorian in the box. So moving the box down a whole step the box is now located between Eb6 and F6.

Now, if we want to play C in a Cmin7b6b9 Phrygian box, then the Maj7 Ionian in the box has got to be 2 whole steps below Cmin7b6b9 Phrygian in the box, so we move the box down another whole step to where the box is between Db6 and Eb6.

NOW, ...to play C as a Lydian, the box has got to go down only a half step more to between C6 and D6. Now that box overlaps the Phrygian box by 1 fret.

Moving our C mode on upscale with the box moving it's Maj7 downscale, we next want C to be C7(6) Mixolydian so the box moves down another whole step to be between Bb6 and C6.

Continuing the box downscale for it's Maj7 to give us Cmin7b6 Aeolean, the box is now located between Ab6 and Bb6.

Moving the box downward 1 more whole step to give us Cdim Locrian, the box is located between Gb6 and Ab6.

Only 1 more half step to wind back up at Ionian and sure nuff, a half step more puts the Ionian box right back between F6 and G6.

NOW all we got to know is that the minor signature chords are on the downscale end of the boxes, and the Major signature chords are on the upscale end of the boxes.

VOILA .... The terrible mystery of modes solved ...and layed out right there so all we have to do is relate them by Nashville / Berkeley roman-numeral number relationships! And about 3 years developing this system has proved to me that relating it all the the signature chord positions is THE shorcut.

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A VERY GOOD visual exercise is to go to the NoHands neck-notes chart-engine Rick posted several messages previous, ... tune up the neck there to C6, and then start with the Ionian mode in the menu and watch THE ONLY PLACE the dots will all line up straight bar in a box is at F6 / G6. Now select Dorian from the menu and watch ALL the dots and the box move down 2 frets. Click on Phrygian and all the dots and box will move another 2 frets downward. Click on Lydian and all the dots will move down only 1 fret. And by the time you get back to Ionian, you will see the boxes arranged just like my system AND IN NO OTHER PATTERN. Of course if you choose another root than C, the dots will line up relative to the new rootMaj7 BUT IN THE IDENTICAL TEMPLATE. etc etc etc etc.

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YeeeeHawww...... ...... we got collards'n hot buttered cornbread now! Stick another dollar in the jukebox and let's cut some rug.

ALOHA,
DT~
cr2003wdt

[This message was edited by Denny Turner on 23 May 2003 at 02:15 AM.]

It seems that we are describing the same thing ....

quote:

---

For these whole step boxes (C6 tunin')....

Nut = From the tonic towards the nut
Bridge = From the tonic towards the bridge

String 1&5 tonic ... "nut"    = Locrian (7)
                 ... "bridge" = Aeolian (6)
String 2&6 tonic ... "nut"    = Myxolydian(5)
                 ... "bridge" = Lydian (4)
String 3 tonic   ... "nut"    = Phyrigian (3)
                 ... "bridge" = Dorian (2)
String 4 tonic   ... "nut"    = Dorian (2)
                 ... "bridge" = Ionian (1)

---

Do you see any disadvantages with this way of thinkin' ?

Lately all I have been playin' "out" is bluegrass (yes in C6) ... with chords flyin' around "a million miles/hour" ... so when they throw me a solo ... I usually base it on the Ionian Mode and try and pause/end on a good note (and hope for the best) ...

Any suggestions for "faking" a break/fill etc. if you know the key ... but the changes are being fired by a machine gun" ???

PS: Denny... a hint from someone who is dyslexic. I have had to edit about every post I've ever made ... if you highlght the "edit info" at the bottom of the message .... and delete it prior to re-submitting ... you end up with only one "edited by ... " message.

[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 21 May 2003 at 08:37 AM.]

Your post from 20 May, 2003 07:56, kind of threw me because I misunderstood your sentence:

"Minor blues dorian lays over just about anything, especially dom7/9 in the tonic which is what E6 is again: And the dorian box is also the IV box..."

I thought you were saying there was an E dorian box that layed right on top of the same frets as the tonic dom7(4th fret), but you were talking about the dorian 3 frets up at the 7th fret (E dorian). Got it, cool!

The C6 non pedal steel is a trip in that if your a guitar player and play modes on the guitar neck in which the order of the modes go up in pitch/frets, the opposite is true of the steel which is like you are looking at the neck through a mirror reflection and it goes down in the order of the modes while the guitar and everything else goes up, and the connected steel modes going up and down the neck all have the same root note. This is some kind of crazy math one has to get used to. Heck, it sounds confusing to me just to read what I just wrote!

By the way "Jimmie Vaughn" uses the Dom7 tonic/Dorian 3 frets up approach on non pedal steel when playing blues just like you Denny, it's so cool. Thanks a million for everything...

[This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 21 May 2003 at 11:34 PM.]

For bluegrass I would look for key centers and if it modulates or stays in the same key. I would use the major blues scale with the same root as the key of the moment instead of the major scale(sounds more country bumpkin). For turn arounds you could out line the chords in the last measure. You know, you can play three different major blues scales that each have the same root as the 1,4 and 5 chords in a key and sound real hick. Play the major blues scale that corresponds to it's major chord i.e.
E major or dom7 chord = E blues scale
A major or dom7 chord = A blues scale
B major or dom7 chord = B blues scale

You could combine the major blues scale and all the chord arpeggios found in a key over a 3 fret key area and sound pretty good without having to jump around much.

"Steve Kaufman's four-hour Bluegrass Workout For all Intruments" has 4 CD's and all the heads to allot of well known songs, so you can learn the head and work out solo/turn around stuff.

Thanks for the edit button tip, works great!

[This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 22 May 2003 at 07:48 AM.]

THANKS for the kind words. You bet; The discussions here is what puts it all together; And I can't imagine a better group for the discussions.

Actually all this stuff from my end is about 80% along the way to publishing some larnin thangs. It's discussions and feedback such as this forum that will refine the work by confirming what is easy to grasp and work on those parts that prove more difficult. The whole idea is to clear up the confusion of modes and substitution which really are the amazingly simple basis for most of what we play on our half of the planet.

By the time we finish our explorations here, we will all have probably gone through the whole nine yards the 5 times it takes for it to take root.

Thanks again for the very nice waves. And Mahalo for your kokua too Brah.

THANKS RICK

=============================================

Rick,

Thanks a Mil for the edit hi-lite/cut hint ! Why does the obvious escape me so easily (Duhhhh ... *drool*)

MY HOMEBASE METHOD IS THE SAME CONCEPT AS YOU ARE DOING ... I THINK ... AT LEAST IN MEASURING FROM A KNOWN ROOT, ... which is exactly what I use the Homebase for, but in a manner that folks not atuned to notes can still easily grasp. Indeed, the Homebase 6th chord IS located by it's root in the most common place we all know anyway (upscale, 2nd strang in the box). NOW, once we know where the Homebase would be for any root OR at any given time in a song, we can easily locate all the other modes FROM THE HOMEBASE AS "I" (EVEN THOUGH IT MIGHT NOT BE "I" IN THE SONG!) thusly: FROM THE HOMEBASE CHORD THOUGHT OF AS "I": Maj7 = V6. min7 = bIII6. dim = bV6. If anyone really needs to twist their brains with Phrygian and Lydian, they're equally easy to add to the inventory. Navigating this way also removes any and all need to even visualize the boxes template because we can go right to the placement via the roman numeral step equivilants said above. You don't have to count frets or anything, ... just know where I, IV and V are, which me thinks we all have a pretty good grip on already!

If you need to know where root for each box is, then here's the simplest way I have found to build a mental picture and wind up with a simple gouge (mantra as Jesse nicely puts it):

FINDING ROOT IN EACH MODE BOX:

Let's digest it first and then I'll jot out the mental gouge:

The strings that root occurs on in the boxes also moves upward 1 string for each of the Maj7 mode steps.

Starting with the Maj7 box; the root is on string 4 (on a 6 string steel) on the down-scale end of the box (and I automatically include the 3rd note lower harmony slant bar on the 6th string).

The next step up (step 2) in the mode step sequence is min7 (Dorian box) whose root is on string 3 right in the signature chord. AND VOILA ...it's also shared with the next step up (step 3) which is min7b6b9 (Phrygian box).

And the next step up (step 4) is the Lydian box whose root is on string 2 ...AND VOILA, it's shared with the next step up (step 5) dom7 (Mixolydian box) which is our Homebase reference ... where surely by now we know where the root is.

And the next step up (step 6) is min7b6 (Aolean box) whose root is on the 1st string right in the signature chord, which VOILA is shared with the next step up (step 7) half-dim (Locrian box).

Which provides us with easy number gouges: (step)1=(string)4. 2/3=3. 4/5=2. 6/7=1.

Now I don't know about you, but out of those groupings there is one in each group I use ALLOT while the other I hardly ever use, ...so memorizing root for the ones I use allot narrows it down to memorizing 4 root locations for the short interem period before it becomes quite natural with use anyway. So all I have to know about root is where it's located for Ionian, Dorian, Mixolydian, and Aolean, ....and heck, I darn sure better know where root is in Mixolydian (our famous 6th chords) and Ionian (Maj7 box) by now ... which only leaves 2 to memorize ... Dorian=3rd string and Aolean=1st string! AND GUESS WHAT ... the only root in those 4 commonly used groups not co-located with the signature chord is Maj7 Ionian! ...the rest of them are right there on the darn signature fret!!!!!!! OK, let's all pull out our kazoos and buzz along while I repeat the verse 5 times: ... Root is on strings 3,4,5,6 for modes Maj7, min7, dom7, min7b6 respectively; and Maj7 is the only one in that group with root not on the signature chord fret. (The step-children modes not in that mantra have root opposite the signature chord fret).

In one hour's time with a pencil and paper, a person can draw the boxes with a large dot for root .... and have it licked. Another way of practicing / memorizing is to use the F6 box (it's conveniently located) and start at the Maj7 root and play the box's scale with a lower harmony up to the top of the box and back down ... THEN STOP. Now repeat that exercise 10 times. THAT is where the Maj7 root is. Now IN THE SAME BOX start on the Dorian root and play the box scale with a lower harmony up to the top to the box and back down as far as you can go ... AND STOP. Repeat 10 times. THAT is where Dorian root is FOR THAT BOX'S SCALE. Now IN THE SAME BOX start on the Phrygian root, and with a lower harmony play to the top of the box and back down as low as you can go. THAT is where Phrygian root is. Do the same thing for all the modes until you get the picture of where the roots are IN THE SAME BOX.

Now we know where the root notes are and can now move the box up and down the neck to place the box over what root we want to create a certain mode from.

The next message will discuss the several ways being bandered about to navigate the boxes around.

Akkkk ... there goes that burning rubber smell again!

ALOHA,
DT~

[This message was edited by Denny Turner on 23 May 2003 at 02:22 AM.]

I'll try and "decipher" my chart ... I did this one and various slant and tuning charts a few years after I started learnin' ... about 20 yrs ago.

String 1&5 tonic ... "nut"    = Locrian (7)
                 ... "bridge" = Aeolian (6)
String 2&6 tonic ... "nut"    = Myxolydian(5)
                 ... "bridge" = Lydian (4)
String 3 tonic   ... "nut"    = Phyrigian (3)
                 ... "bridge" = Dorian (2)
String 4 tonic   ... "nut"    = Dorian (2)
                 ... "bridge" = Ionian (1)

Some Modes of C (for example)

Tonic (root) C note
String One - 8th fret
String Two - 0 fret and 12th Fret
String Three - 3rd fret
String Four - 5th Fret

I'd go to the fret where my tonic C note is (string 4 / fret 5) and use the whole step box starting at the 5th fret and extending toward the bridge ... (your F6 to G6 box)

If I wanted a C Dorian scale ...

I'd go to the fret where my tonic C note is (string 4 / fret 5) and use the whole step box starting at the 5th fret and extending toward the nut ... (your F6 to Eb6 box)

*Idenical to the string 3 tonic "bridge box"

If I wanted a C Mixolydian Scale ...

I'd go to the fret where my tonic C note is (string 2 / fret 12) and use the whole step box starting at the 12th fret and extending toward the nut ... (your C6 to Bb6 box)

Granted ... you have to know all the notes on the fretboard .... but I was just trying to relate your teachings to what I have been doin' ...

[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 22 May 2003 at 09:53 AM.]

Regarding your:

quote:

---

The C6 non pedal steel is a trip in that if your a guitar player and play modes on the guitar neck in which the order of the modes go up in pitch/frets, the opposite is true of the steel which is like you are looking at the neck through a mirror reflection and it goes down in the order of the modes while the guitar and everything else goes up, and the connected steel modes going up and down the neck all have the same root note. This is some kind of crazy math one has to get used to. Heck, it sounds confusing to me just to read what I just wrote!

---

Read the entry I just posted to Rick regarding finding root notes. AT FIRST it does seem like the mode boxes are running the opposite direction of spanish geetar and sax; But they aren't. Take sax for instance. If you want to play a Dorian for a given root, ... then the root you're choosing is upscale 1 whole step on the 2nd step of Major7 step sequence of the Mother lode scale; BUT TO PLAY that Dorian, you go DOWN 1 whole step and play the bVIIMaj7 notes to get "I"Dorian notes! Same thing on fanger geetar: If you want to play G Dorian which is up from Mammy Ionian root, you go DOWN and play FMaj7 Ionian scale inventory! Which is the basis for my fanger geetar course on mode SCALE / substitution.

The same thing is happening on Steel. Take say "A" Aolean: It's only "A" Aolean in it's box because "C" Maj7 is in that same box! So it is THE MAJ7's in the boxes that are moving downward just like any other instrument!

Analyzing it, as Andy said, "is a bit daunting"; But using the template and jumping right into what's happening is a breeze (*he says after racking his brains for 3 years to get it where it is!*).

(Orchestra hit; Bass violas sustain)......... ...........