I have to tell ya, your stuff is right on point, but seems a little confusing to me as far as being able to easily remember some of it. I have both yours and Rick's reference point charts laid out on two facing sides of note book paper along with a C6 tuning master chromatic chart, a master Interval chart for each box and a shared fret/interval modal box connection chart in the key of C, which covers the whole neck up and down, two part harmony string slants, three part harmony string slants (split and reverse) and my C6 mantra for remembering which string has the root note on it for all 7 modes and which direction the extension box is found (2 frets up or 2 frets down), did I forget anyone? This all fits on just 2 facing pages of note book paper (just barely) and is a very practical index, if you already understand modes, arpeggios, scales and intervals etc. These are vast subjects that need to be broken down for a novice wanting to use it all beyond just what their ear tells them sounds good. But the one thing I truly believe in is reducing the amount of info one has to memorize to use this information fully. In the past I would think I understood your approach fully only to find I wasn't seeing this angle or that angle. I am now on a roll thanks to you and it is very exciting. My western swing/country playing is going thru the roof now and I can use all the approaches I know for Jazz and blues and organize it on the neck of the steel much, much better. Keep up the good work, I will be one of the first to buy your book!

[This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 22 May 2003 at 11:18 AM.]

I do not like looking at modes by playing their "parent major scale" because you lose the reason why we play modes in the first place (the 1st, 3rd, 5th and 7th note of a mode spells a chord and helps to out line the harmony of the momment). The way you are looking at some of this I feel is missing what I just pointed out, even tho your way works too. What ever helps ya to know where those arpeggio notes are, will also allow a player to use "poly tonal substitution approaches", which in the end are just inversions to all of this and helps a player come up with colors you might not think about otherwise. I think your misunderstood what I was saying about the nature of the steel neck in that the "shared fret/interval modal box connection chart" I wrote out for myself shows that the steel has a different math than the guitar's same "shared fret/interval modal box connection chart". I feel this single fact will throw allot of guitar players off and make it all seem very complicated. Sides Dizzy and Bird were doing the same thing and studied together a great deal, but approached it from different directions in the end with the same goal in mind, dig? Luv ya man!

[This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 22 May 2003 at 01:36 PM.]

Now ain't this a trip: It just occurred to me your mentioning dyslexia; Heck, I'm about half autistic. Where the pieces jump around for you and you still get a full picture, ... I can't see the darn picture until all or most of the pieces are in place!

Now all this time I've been trying to decipher the numbers at the end of each of your chart lines ... and after ALLOT of staring I STILL never saw that those numbers are just the Ionian step number ... rather than some fret navigation number as I thought and had been trying to decipher!!!!

YES, your root nav method is accomplishing the same thing in finding the box, and then applying the nut-bridge gouge for which way the box extends by rote memory. And it's fer darn sure that using that system for 20 years makes it easy use ... and now to see your method in my neck chart.

How did you memory gouge the signature chords that aren't co-located with the root note? And what did you envision in the box relative to the rest of the neck once you got there? I'm fishing for some of your relative mental graphics that relates the modes along the neck to each other, that I can't see simply by knowing where the root note is and a box extending up or down scale from it by rote memory. For instance, how did you determine which end of the box had the signature chord and which end had the other extensions ... and what did you mentally call the difference? Did you perceive them simply as boxes in which the differnet modal scales existed? Did your system ring the bell that CMaj7 and G6 were the same box and same scale? What more in the box could you gather from that system?

'preciate it bunches.

For the same C modes (octave type "runs")

For the C Ionian ... 1st string/8th fret ... I will drop to the 7th fret and then maneuver to the 4th string/5th fret (using the F6/G6 box).

For the C Dorian ... 1st string/8th fret ... I will drop to the 6th fret (7b), then to the 5th fret and then maneuver the 3rd string/3rd fret (using the Eb6/F6 box)

For the C Mixolydian ... 1st string/8th fret ... I will go up to the 10th fret(2), and then maneuver to the 6th string/12th fret (using the Bb6/C6).

As far as other "mental pictures" ... Since you asked

In my mind I see the fretboard three ways ...

First (and formost)- as a series of slants ...

String 1-2   reverse slants, 
String 1-4   reverse slants, 
String 2-3   forward slants,  
String 2-5   forward slants.
String 1,2,3 forward slants
String 1,2,3 split string slants
String 1,2,4 split string slants
String 2,3,4 split string slants
String 2,3,5 split string slants
String 2,4,5 reverse slants  

Second - As a "running Major scale" ...

Any string, fret, direction ... all the "pockets" and their overlapping sequences.

Third - As the Whole-Step Mode boxes...

Basically the Dorian and Mixolydian ... "trying" to improvise a little.

I have VERY little musical ability ... so I was trying (back then and now) to figure out mathematically what everyone else already knew.

Now if I could just be "Musical"

[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 22 May 2003 at 10:36 AM.]

I (1,3,5), 
IIm (2,4,6), 
IIIm (3,5,7), 
IV (4,6,1), 
V7 (5,7,2,4), 
VIm (6,1,3), 
VIIdim (7,2,4) 

I tried to memorize (back when) the "Minor running scales" but settled on a few classic pockets and the Dorian Mode.

I rely on my slant positions more than anything ... I just try to play the melody and throw in the appropriate harmony notes.

I worked alot on the scale and mode stuff when JB said my renditions were PREDICTABLE and to ADD fills to the "empty spaces" ... although I'm still partial to holding a note and vibrato-ing it.

Just relaying my own "Adventures in Paradise".

------------------

www.horseshoemagnets.com

[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 22 May 2003 at 11:05 AM.]

For all us dyslexic types.
I have been a bit slow and not contributing to this discussion I am following VERY intently because of the amount of dense text involved.

I have to read constantly to keep it at bay. I did outward bound in feb '73 and read nothing for 30 days.. I came back and realized I had trouble with the newspaper for a week or two.
Never again will I not read something constantly. It really has been hell learning french because of it.

If I read music regularly it stays up at level, but miss a week or two and it just crashes. That's one reason I play the classical music thing, it keeps me reading.

So the visual things, such as a your notebook would be as much help as Denny's Charts on his site. sure helps.

quote:

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For instance, how did you determine which end of the box had the signature chord and which end had the other extensions

---

The first thing I ever did was memorize the straight bar locations of the major and minor chords (including 2 note intervals and their parent chord/chords) ... so I already knew where they were when I started lookin' at modes.

quote:

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and what did you mentally call the difference?

---

Companion notes ... stop laughing

quote:

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Did you perceive them simply as boxes in which the differnet modal scales existed?

---

I knew what notes they were (by number) ... but to be honest ... when I go and use these whole step boxes ... my goal is to get to 'em and then flounder around tryin' to play fast like a lead guitar player. I feel safe in a box

quote:

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Did your system ring the bell that CMaj7 and G6 were the same box and same scale?

---

Yes. I had made a set of these charts for each note and compared them to one another. Thats when I first started grasping the whole church mode business.

quote:

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What more in the box could you gather from that system?

---

The coolest thing that I learned was how some modes share half their notes with another mode.

The Ionian, Dorian and Phyrigian of C for example ... are all kinda connected:

Fret      Strings (6 to 1)

1)  2b   4   6b   7b   2b   4
                                }Phyrigian
3)  3b   5   7b   1    3b   5
                                } Dorian
5)  4    6   1    2    4    6
                                } Ionian
7)  5    7   2    3    5    7

So the notes on fret 3 are shared by the Phyrigian and the Dorian .... And the notes on fret 5 are shared by the Dorian and Ionian

The Locrian, Aeolian, Mixolydian, and Lydian of C are also "share happy"....

6)  5b   7b   2b   3b   5b   7b
                                }Locrian
8)  6b   1    3b   4    6b   1
                                } Aeolian
10) 7b   2    4    5    7b   2
                                } Mixolydian
12) 1    3    5    6    1    3
                                } Lydian
14) 2    4#   6    7    2    4#

I also thought it was neat how they were grouped:

Odd Frets (for C modes):
Ionian ... Dorian ... Phyrigian

Even Frets (for C modes):
Lydian ... Mixolydian ... Aeolian ... Locrian

[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 22 May 2003 at 08:27 PM.]

I did notice that there were a few "psuedo" whole step boxes ... no "true" ones.

The whole step boxes for spanish tunin' do not furnish ALL the notes of a mode ... you have to go outside the box to grab some ...

The closer intervals that C6 tunin' employs vs. the larger intervals of spanish tunin' explain the "steppin' out of the box" ...

[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 23 May 2003 at 06:14 AM.]

Jesse was right-awn with the "do it yourself" suggestion FOR VERY GOOD REASON: Writing out your own neck and interval charts and similarly digesting anything else that comes to mind, works WONDERS. I think the reason for that is two-fold: (1) Tacit hand involvement is well recognized in teaching academics ... and the more difficult it is for a person (like me) to learn, the more beneficial tacit exercise is. I have a 6 year old son who is quite Asperger, a form of autism; And tacit exercises with him makes a ton of difference between that and "conventional" mere reading absorbtion. And (2) I think the slower absorbtion rate of having to think before, during and in final confirmation / editing what you've done, serves the repetition absorbtion technique that is even older than tacit techniques. And as a matter of fact, if you target your work to be as perfect as possible in the end, it will most likely be of a quality that will help many others, particularly those who think similarly.

Funny but relative story: I am a retired airline pilot. In my first simulator ride in transition from propeller to jet airliners about 15 years ago, it was quite obvious that my partner trainee and I were gonna need some work on proceedures because things happen incredibly allot faster in a jet than a prop plane. It's the dead of winter in St. Louis with 2 feet of fresh snow on the ground when we got out of that first night in the terror box (sim.). So the instructor tells us that when we get back to the hotel he wants us to go out into a large field behind the hotel and walk out our entire flight training profile in the snow ... and make all of our proceedure cockpit call-outs out-loud to each other. OK, we're being punished I thought. But by jove, after walking the same paths we'd been stamping in the snow for about 4 hours looking like two people ready for straight jackets, things started coming very easy. Amazingly easy. The next night was the second of 5 nights allowed to pass the tests in the terror box. At the end of the next night the instructor said we were both ready for the checkride the next night which we passed with no problems. We 3 then had 2 whole additional nights to just have fun in the box inventing what-if scenarios to try. After the checkride the Instructor explained that the more tacit deliberance a person can put into a learning objective, the better the results will be over simply reading and writing.

The floor around my desk and computer here is still strewn with piles of wadded up paper from trying to reconcile my misconception of Rick's mode nav system ! The cat's having a ball in it !

ALOHA,
DT~

[This message was edited by Denny Turner on 23 May 2003 at 04:09 AM.]

After stumbling all over my own surgical hose for 2 days, I finally found the self-induced misconception. You're absolutely right; Your method produces the same reslults ... and would work well for anyone who knew the notes of every position on the neck fluently and could operate purely on a notes basis.

I also find all your concepts congruent with my system. My system is a graphic map where yours is specific note and fret based ... the best I can tell. How 'bout you?

THANKS for the patience and great info.

Regarding your:

quote:

---

I have to tell ya, your stuff is right on point, but seems a little confusing to me as far as being able to easily remember some of it.

---

When you say "stuff" hard to remember, we have to realize that the cornucopia we've been discussing IS hard to remember; No ...downright complex and confusing if a person is not up on the way any other person looks at it all. For instance, ...I probably spent 4 hours total trying to reconcile what Rick was presenting very clearly and simply ... but it was 1 small self induced misconception that had me "at the hardware store looking for the groceries"! Shootz, the things we've been discussing isn't even necessary for a Player to jump right in and use the system with even the most basic understanding of music theory. THAT'S WHY I developed the system, ...so that all the discussions we've been having is not necessary to get the cream from the milk. Now of course curious minds like ours are going to want to disect it ... and enjoy doing so ... which is GREAT ; But again, having it simply laid out in a map format that Steelers are familiar with makes it ALLOT easier to disect than having to sort it all out of the zillions of mostly unsuccesful ways mainstream adademia has tried to present it for a long time.

So my next posting here will be a recap of the very simple nav method.

There is a chart you can open and keep open for reference.

Steel Guitar almost entirely requires a Player to choose his/her notes from what is present under the bar at any given time. Using a modal substitution system requires note selection because it usually provides more notes than the kind of chord or passage a Player desires. But a modal system gives a player notes on all 6 strings under his/her bar to choose from to be able to play the vast majority of chords and scales used in popular music. The modal / substitution system is indeed the very way we get the vast majority of chords and scales we desire on Steel.

The 4 most commonly used mode scales and chords are:

The 6th chord. We all know how to make them simply by moving the C6 tuning up and down the neck with the bar.

If we want to play IMaj7 chord, we do so by playing V6 chord; (ie. if you want to play CMaj7, then play G6).

If we want to play Imin7 chord, we do so by playing bIII6 chord; (ie. if you want to play Cmin7, then play Eb6).

If we want to play Idim chord, we do so by playing bV6 chord; (ie. if you want to play Cdim, then play Gb6).

Once we learn those simple 3 substitution positions, we can also play their scales right there with the chords by:

The remaining notes of the MAJOR chords' scale is 2 frets DOWN from the Major chords.

The remaining notes of the MINOR chords' scale is 2 frets UP from the minor chords.

The more exotic modes for anyone who might need them:

If we want the Aeolean Imin7b6 chord, it is found at bVI6 with same rules as said above about it's scale.

If we want the Phyrigian Imin7b6b9 chord, it is found at bII6 with same rules as said above about it's scale.

If we want the Lydian I#4 chord, it is found at the same place as I6 with the same rules said above about it's scale.

---------------------------------------------

quote:

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this is either the work of a genius or a madman - maybe both

---

And just think, it all began with this quote by Andy Volk. This has been, and is a wonderful thread.

Denny's large chord grip reference points:

Imaj7 = V6 = Cmaj7/G7 = 7th fret = Ionian = down ext box = non root chord grip

Imin7 = bIII6 = Cmin7/Eb6 = 3rd fret = Dorian = up ext box = root note in the chord grip

Imin7b5 = bV6 = C 1/2dim/Gb6 = 6th fret = Locrian = up ext box = non root chord grip

Imin7b6 = bVI6 = Cmin7b6/Ab6 = 8th fret = Aolean = up ext box = root note in the chord grip

Imin7b6b9 = bII6 = Cmin7b6b9/Db6 = 1st fret = Phrygian = up ext box = non root chord grip

Imaj7+4 = I6 = Cmaj7+4/D6 = 2nd fret = Lydian = down ext box = non root chord grip

Idom7 = I6 = Cdom7/C6 = open/12th fret = Mixolydian = down ext box = root note in the chord grip

*Denny your last post on lydian's reference point did not go along with you modal site large chord grip. This chart I made is like your site as far as the first choice chord grips.

*Remember, don't get confused by the "large chord grip" fret location(which sometimes has no root note in the chord grip) and the purely "root note chord grip" location(which is concerned with where the root note/fret# for a modal box is).

I use both location points of reference to get around.

[This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 23 May 2003 at 07:12 PM.]

The non pedal C6 steel necks modal names(Denny's modal box's) for F Major go down in pitch as the names follow the same parent major scale order which on the guitar go up in pitch with the same order of modal names. The "steels connected modes"(Denny's box's) also have the same root note for all of the different modal names for these different box's. This is hard to describe, so I wrote out a chart for guitar and one for C6 steel to compare.

Guitar/F major scale/root note low 6th string
G Dorian 3rd fret
A Phrygian 5th fret
Bb Lydian 6th fret
C Mixolydian 8th fret
D Aolean 10th fret
E Locrian 12th fret
F Ionian 13th/1st fret

C6 non pedal steel - C root note
C Dorian 17th to 15th fret
C Phrygian 15 to 13 fret
C Lydian 14 to 12 fret
C Mixolydian 12 to 10 fret
C Aolean 10 to 8 fret
C Locrian 8 to 6 fret
C Ionian 7 to 5 fret
C Dorian 5 to 3 fret
C Phrygian 3 to 1 fret
C Lydian 2 to 0 fret

See, See, See what I meannn!!!

The C modes on the steel all share and are connected by frets/intervals like the guitar modes are, up and down the neck, but the guitar modes for a key, change the root note of each mode as it goes thru it's parent major scale. The connected shared fret/interval/positions for "Denny's modal box's for the steel" have to keep the same root note for all the connections? The parent major scale only works in a 3 fret box on steel, weird!! I just wish I could explain it in easy to understand terms why this is, but I can't.

[This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 24 May 2003 at 07:29 AM.]

It seems like the same box is moving toward the bridge along with the root ... its really a different box entirely.

Take your same example (F mode series) ... and run it on the Chord House program TUNED to C6 ... watching the root on the low C.

It moves just the way the the spanish tuning root does .. but it is clear on the C6 that you get way out of your modal boxes as it runs toward the bridge.

[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 23 May 2003 at 11:58 AM.]

P.S. Mike, your not catching on to what I'm trying to say to Rick. I play sax like Charlie Parker, but guitar is my main love and I'm a heavy weight player. I'm pointing out something only found in a Open tuning and therefore unique to C6 steel.

[This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 23 May 2003 at 11:53 AM.]

This reflected mirror thing I see in the C6 neck is something I have never seen in theory before. I thought I could rip on bottle neck guitar, but I never saw this inverse thing before found in open tunings. That's why I think it's important to understand why it's there. Maybe it's too weird to even consider for most people, I just thought Rick could figure it out if he saw what I was talking about. I gotta start writing out some new charts for Open G and Open D bottle neck tunings because of this C6 modal chart stuff.

[This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 24 May 2003 at 09:04 AM.]

quote:

---

Guitar/F major scale/root note low 6th string
G Dorian 3rd fret
A Phrygian 5th fret
Bb Lydian 6th fret
C Mixolydian 8th fret
D Aolean 10th fret
E Locrian 12th fret
F Ionian 13th fret

C6 non pedal steel - C root note
C Dorian 17th to 15th fret
C Phrygian 15 to 13 fret
C Lydian 14 to 12 fret
C Mixolydian 12 to 10 fret
C Aolean 10 to 8 fret
C Locrian 8 to 6 fret
C Ionian 7 to 5 fret
C Dorian 5 to 3 fret
C Phrygian 3 to 1 fret
C Lydian 2 to 0 fret

See, See, See what I meannn!!!

---

Basically you are discussing the naming of the F modal series(G dorian, A phyrgian, etc) in the first example ... then comparing it to the naming of the modal series associated with the Modes of C (C dorian, C phyrgian).

I was trying to point out that you are comparing two completely different SERIES here ... The F Modal Series vs. the Modes of C.

For analytical processes, it is best to vary only one thing at a time ... keeping all other things constant.

My suggestion is still to look at the F Mode Series on the C6 tuning (G dorian, A phyrigian, etc)... and you will see that they lay out and progress in the same direction.

As far as comparing C6 to spanish tuning in terms of modes ... the only difference that I can see is that there are NO COMPLETE WHOLE STEP modal boxes in spanish tuning ... just fragments.

*The order of the names is the same for the guitar and steel, but the frets/positions go up on guitar while the frets/positions go down (using denny's box's and connecting them) for the steel. I wrote out charts for you to see this taking place. You didn't write out any charts of your own for me to understand why you don't get this. I can't tell if your playing now or not, not that you have in the past but this seems easy to see, that it exists by the charts. I'm gonna drop the subject now unless someone catches on and wants to talk about it. Thanks anyways...

[This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 24 May 2003 at 07:34 AM.]

quote:

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I can't tell if your playing now or not, not that you have in the past but this seems easy to see, that it exists by the charts

---

I don't play games ...

G Dorian in C6 - root on Low C

Fret       Strings (6 to 1)

6         3b               3b
7     1        5   6   1
8         4        7b      4
9     2        6       2

A Phyrigian in C6 - Root on Low C

Fret       Strings (6 to 1)
 
9      1
10     2b   4    6    7b   2b   4
11
12     3b   5    7b   1    3b   5

Bb Lydian in C6 - Root on Low C

Fret       Strings (6 to 1)

10     1    3    5    6    1    3
11
12     2    4#   6    7    2    4#

C Mixolydian in C6 - Root on Low C

Fret       Strings (6 to 1)

12     1    3    5    6    1    3
13          4         7b        4
14     2         6         2

Just like on your spanish tuning ... as you go up in pitch (toward the bridge) the names are G Dorian, A Phyrigian, Bb Lydian, C Mixolydian .....

Your constant was the Root note on the Low E, therefore for analysis (comparison of spanish to C6) ... you have to keep the root on the Low C.

These are obviously not the whole step modal boxes that were the theme of this thread ... but neither are the ones you play on guitar.

I hope this clears it up for you ...

[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 23 May 2003 at 03:02 PM.]

I was connecting "Denny's modal box's" anywhere that (two ends of two separate box's had the same arrangement of intervals) and when I was done, I came up with something odd that went from one end of the neck of the steel to the other. I won't keep going over it since I feel I have talked enough about it. I will keep doing my research on what I found and if I find a better way to explain it, I'll show you what I came up with. Thanks for your help, I always really appreciate it.

[This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 24 May 2003 at 07:45 AM.]

OK, ...I'm cinched and my hats on tight; ...open the gate:

I see the spanish / steel comparison discussion in the same way Rick does ... that the same modal mechanics and opposite directions of modal steps vs Parent modal scale (which by inference obviously means modal chords as well), occur in the same manner on the steel guitar (regardless of tuning) as it does on the spanish guitar regardless of tuning. (tuning only defines the fret width or flag protrusions of a box which you will find when you start charting triad-only open tunings that will need an extra 2 frets flag protrusion for the 6th note that the 6th tuning pulls into a 2-fret box):

When we speak of spanish guitar we MUST qualify that the finger positions used for our discussion MUST remain the same and simply move up and down the neck just like the steel bar does with the Steel in comparison.

Now, I have learned that I can take the standard "E" type barre chord on spanish guitar, and put my pinky on standby for the 6th note in the barre chord's second octave, .... and I can DUPLICATE the C6 mode boxes in both chord and scale, by using the second octave of the barre chord (1,3,5,6,1) and using the first octave (1,5,1) supplementally. (And there is not any missing intervals in that 2 fret box's second octave when the pinky is on standby for the 6th note in the chord and 5th note in extension). BUT I PROPOSE / TEACH THIS METHOD ONLY FOR CHORD SUBSTITUTION (easy "wing it" shortcut technique). The E Major7 SCALE finger position relative to the same root as the "E" type barre chord works better for SCALES substitution on spanish guitar. IN EITHER CASE the box that contains the Parent mode scale AND the parent mode chord, MOVES DOWNWARD RELATIVE TO THE MODE STEPS MOVING UPWARD ... identical to the Steel. (The scale box is also NOT missing intervals, ... it's just 4 frets wide to span the wider intervals between strings).

Now, why is this and what makes it confusing?: First let's start on spanish guitar with an E type barre chord, triad-only like every guitar player knows, on the 2nd fret making it G chord. Now we're in the same key and place as Jesse's Santanna example:

Where do we move that barre chord to make it a min7 Dorian? We move it to the same place we do on Steel. OK, so now we know the chords work the same way so we can set them aside.

Now, MAINTAINING A SAME FINGER POSITION AS WE MUST DO TO COMPARE IT WITH THE STEEL'S CHUNK OF STEEL TO PLAY IT WITH: WHERE DO WE MOVE THE G MAJOR SCALE AT THE SPANISH GUITAR'S 2ND FRET TO MAKE IT min7 DORIAN? We MUST move it down to FMaj7 to get Gmin7. OK, now we know that the Parent scale moves downward on the spanish guitar if we are confined to using the same finger pattern. So how does this compare to Steel (AND HERE IS WHERE THE MISSING KEY IS IMHO):

Does the Maj7 scale move downward on Steel like it does on spanish guitar? YES IT DOES; IDENTICALLY:

If we are to play CMaj7 SCALE on Steel, we get it in the box formed between F6 and G6. NOW, WHERE IS Dmin7 Dorian SCALE? It's in the same box. Where is Emin7b6b9 Phrygian SCALE? It's in the same box. So how do we make CMaj7 SCALE a Cmin7 Dorian SCALE? WE SIMPLY MOVE THE CMaj7 SCALE BOX DOWN 1 WHOLE STEP SO THAT THE BbMaj7 SCALE AFFORDS US THE PARENT Maj7 SCALE THAT Cmin7 DORIAN WOULD COME FROM. WHICH IS EXACTLY WHAT WE DID ON SPANISH GUITAR.

Now I simply cannot find any difference between what happens on spanish guitar mode / substitution wise UNLESS we are free to start using different finger positions on spanish guitar; In which case we'll have to invent some sort of steel bar thang that will radically change shapes upon command ( yikes, ... pedals ) to make different chords and scales on Steel similarly possible for a meaningful comparison.

WHAT AM I MISSING HERE?

ALOHA,
Denny T~

[This message was edited by Denny Turner on 23 May 2003 at 06:40 PM.]

Can you chart out those "other" boxes you refer to as existing other than the ones I chart? If you're talking about partial boxes, ... then never mind, ...that's obvious.

The fact of the matter is ... COMPLETE WHOLE STEP BOXES only exist in open 6th (maybe 13ths) tunings and DO NOT EVEN OCCUR in spanish tuning ... Period.

That is the only difference I see between C6 modes and spanish tuning modes.

[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 24 May 2003 at 09:39 PM.]

quote:

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(The scale box is also NOT missing intervals, ... it's just 4 frets wide to span the wider intervals between strings).

---

I am still digesting this stuff in a dyslexic fashion, but it's great!

quote:

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Yikes pedals !!

---

Regarding your:

quote:

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The fact of the matter is ... COMPLETE WHOLE STEP BOXES only exist in open 6th (maybe 13ths) tunings and DO NOT EVEN OCCUR in spanish tuning ... Period.

---

Are you allowing ONLY whole step boxes for spanish guitar in that statement? Are you disallowing 3 or more fret wide boxes on spanish?

Do the boxes you refer to have to have square boxes or can you allow us boxes with "flag" protrusions?

And is your reference to a "spanish guitar box" simply in it's open tuning, ... or are you "allowing" spanish guitar boxes with set finger patterns therein?

The reason I ask is that I think of FINGERED spanish chord and scale patterns as being in boxes. Just trying to clarify your presentation in my mind for common ground.

Has anyone else heard of the tuning, and what it's intervals and roots are?

The tuning was so kapakai it just might fit into the discussions here to analyze it's boxes.

Rick, on page three at 22 may 2003at 7:20pm, you spoke about what I have been tripping on, you said in the lower half of that post "The coolest thing I learned was how some modes share half their notes with another mode". My post in response was right after yours at 22 may 2003 8:46. I was speaking about how I was calling this (Denny's mode box's) my "Shared fret/interval modal box connections chart". So it seems we were on the same page or should I say "box", at least at one point that is. Sorry I missed referring us back to this starting point.

On guitar if you want to play all the modes found in a key with the same root note placed on all these modes, you will be in the same general position on the guitar neck. On steel, if you want to do this you end up traveling up and down the neck, but the order of the modes goes in the opposite direction than it does in regular theory sequencing. I noticed that your 22 may 2003 7:20pm post (The coolest thing I learned) post did not speak about this reversal of direction of mode name order.

On guitar if you want to play all the modes found in a key so that each mode has a different root note as found in the parent major key, and use the low 6th string for all the root note placements, you end up traveling up and down the whole neck. On steel, if you want to have all of the different root notes found in a key(Denny's box's), you end up in a 3 fret area.

This inverse thing between "Denny's modal box's" and the "guitars modal box's" I feel holds a deep secret. If one can find it, maybe he will find other useful inverse relationships between the steel and guitar or just standard theory. That's what I am tripping on and trying to find. "Rick's modal box's are correct" and move like the guitar does, but since Denny's box's sound so good, that's what I am focusing on right now.

Denny. I am not saying you are wrong on anything really, I'm just suggesting that some other perspectives in the long term are more effective. I know horn player's that just play the major scale that a mode belongs to, but they don't land on chord tones at the right place in a measure as much as they should. Your modal navigation is right on and easier for a newbie to get a good sound right off the bat. A well versed player can take what he already knows and use your modal box's and substitutions and sound great pretty fast. And yes, I's thinks both you and Rick is Bona fide!

[This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 24 May 2003 at 09:44 AM.]

C Dorian - Spanish Tuning

7            6   2
8    1   4   7b  3b   5   1
9
10   2   5   1   4    6   2
11   3b               7b  3b

C Ionian - Spanish tuning

9            7   3
10   2   5   1   4   6   2
11
12   3   6   2   5   7   3
13   4               1   4

I realize these are called boxes and they "note share" between modes at a fret ....

I was hoping to show that because of the common practice of stepping out of the WHOLE STEP box employed by spanish players ... and the fact that there are several of these "pseudo boxes" ... it is easy to inter-twine them ... therefore confusing their "directional naming" ...

I was just trying to help Jesse solve the "mystery"

Jesse ... as you can see ... if you "track" a "specific Pseudo box" ... the naming follows the same pattern as on the C6 whole step boxes.

You guys gotta take it easy on me ... I did this stuff 20 yrs ago (and a "foggy" 20 yrs its been) and I can't even "play" a spanish guitar.

I just like number theory

[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 24 May 2003 at 04:25 PM.]

Are you referring to "Rick's modal boxes for C6 steel" as the "specific Pseudo Box"? If the answer is yes, then I have to clarify that the order of the "naming" may be the same (which I have always agreed with)... but (Denny's shared/fret modal box's) and your (Rick's connected "Pseudo" modal boxes") are going in opposite directions on the neck (up and down the frets) and yours utilizes different root names for each of your "Pseudo" modal boxes(up and down the neck) while Denny's connected modal boxes all have the same root note (up and down the neck). That is what I am investigating to see if there are some hidden approaches/perspectives that I can exploit while jamming on the steel. Please correct me if I am not correct with what you were saying O.K? Thanks...

[This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 24 May 2003 at 01:00 PM.]

C Ionian - Spanish tuning

9            7   3
10   2   5   1   4   6   2
11
12   3   6   2   5   7   3
13   4               1   4

C Dorian - Spanish Tuning

7            6   2
8    1   4   7b  3b   5   1
9
10   2   5   1   4    6   2
11   3b               7b  3b

I call them pseudo boxes because the tabs screw up the geometry .. ha, ha (Actually they are two dimensional rectangles )

Notice that they travel in the same direction and are named just like the C6 boxes...

[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 24 May 2003 at 04:59 PM.]

*I notice your dorian box travels in the same direction, fret wise as a guitar, opposite of a C6 box direction, but both the guitar and the steel maintain the same order of modal names. The reverse mirror effect.

So I guess you are agreeing with me? Thanks...

[This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 24 May 2003 at 03:10 PM.]