Ok I just found Gene Jone's CD and it has Pan Handle Rag. I like the tune, and Genes version, but chord wise it's also
a bit simplistic for this discusion.

But, Midnight In Old Amarilo would be cool.
Still a bu asic set of changes, but lots of turn arounds.

For me the point is something that really works the modal theory and will show us MORE,
whether we like ths song and want to play it in the long run.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 26 May 2003 at 12:18 PM.]

Just pointing out my reasoning for one tune vs. another. If the "powers that be" start another tune I will follow along avidly.
"If you build it they will come."

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 26 May 2003 at 01:08 PM.]

------------------
Steel what?

quote:

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By the way, my girlfriend won't even take lessons from me anymore!

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I see no reason why more than one tune could not be worked on especially if they are quite different.

If you don't know this song yet, "Brads page of steel" has a great arrangement by Brad in Open E (Theme only) under the tab section. I learned this on Open D bottle neck (Brad's) and was able to transfer it onto C6 pretty easy. If you want to hear the theme of "Pan Handle Rag" as played by Leon, it's on Brads site under Leon's bio.

One thing I am also doing is Writing out the different C6 tuning, connected modes from the same parent major scale (Rick Aiello's box concepts) with their different roots on the low 6th string and the low 5th string, kinda like the guitar does, up and down the neck. I figure I will use both Denny's and Rick Aiello's modal box concepts together. For single line soloing and voice leading, I don't feel satisfied yet that I have found the best combinations overall, to get the steel to have a more logical order like I'm used to on the guitar. That's about all for now, I hope I can tab all this out and explain it right for everyone. Thanks

<<

[This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 29 May 2003 at 09:43 AM.]

quote:

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You know those non pedal pioneers of yesteryear went through all of this frustration too I'm sure.

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Re Joaquin's "gift", according to Buddy Emmons (Steel Guitar Forum, 3/98):

HOW TO PRACTICE -
“When I look at the strings on my guitar, I see intervals. I see strings 1 and 2, 1 and 3, or 4 and 5 as whole tones apart. I see major thirds, minor thirds, and see which fret to put the bar for a certain note between those intervals. I see fourths, fifths, sixths, and octaves telling me what string to play when I hear those notes in a melody. To make this work, you must be able to recognize intervals when you hear them. I put as much emphasis on the mental part of practice as the physical. … The beauty of hearing and recognizing intervals is that it will work for any tuning or any instrument. That’s why some people can pick up a strange instrument, listen to its intervals and be playing melodies in a manner of minutes.”

[This message was edited by Andy Volk on 28 May 2003 at 01:11 PM.]

BUT, when I tried the '60 Supro 6s C6/A7 lapsteel after working on some of this stuff on the Sho-Bud middle strings, I was VERY pleasantly surprised at the things that I just played...
From the heart to my hands... because a raft of new licks and possiblities were now in my head.

It was like night and day (no pun) from the last time I had it in my hands and was limited to only 6 strings.

So wrap fish in it if you want...
I will continue to study it and put it to work for me. Because it DOES work. It's there, either learn it or not, but it IS there on the neck. You just have to find it and this is the map.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 28 May 2003 at 02:06 PM.]

I will keep tringgg

Andy Gump

[This message was edited by Andy Alford on 29 May 2003 at 06:25 AM.]

bpm = 224 bright swing *I tap my foot twice for each measure (beats 1 and 3) while I strum alternating bass string and then chord. I do the country bass/chord strum twice a measure. *Western Swing guitarist's will usually strum on the 1 and 3 beat and mute strum the 2 and 4 beat.

There are 16 measures in each section, [A1][B][A2]

4/4 |E |E |E |E |E |B7 |E |E |
[A] |E |E |A7 |A7 |E |B7 |E |E |

[B] |A |A |E |E |F# |F# |B7 |B7 |
.....|A |A |E |E |F# |B7 |E |E |

[A2]|E |E |E |E |E |E |B7 |B7 |
......|E |E |A |A |E |B7 |E |E |

O.K. those are the basic changes for the head. The guitar players solo over the [A2] section.

Heres Leon's basic solo changes for steel:

....|E |E |E |E |E |E |E |E |
....|E |E |A |A |E |B7 |E |E |

*It's from these simple changes that we will reharmonize the solos so they have a jazzy swing to them, like crazy man, leave the moldy fig stuff behind, dig daddy-o? The tab will be coming shortly. If any one has a problem with these progressions, let him speak now, or for ever hold his peace.

[This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 30 May 2003 at 11:57 AM.]

Then when you read all (or more of) the "fish wrap"....
look for ONE small concept at a time... just something that grabs your eye, and learn what that does...do it 5 times for reinforcement.

Then go back and look for another bit and try that.
When you want to go to Louisville from Nashville... you don't need a whole globe to find it.

The C6, as Denny suddenly observed one night, is VERY logical in how the modes are laid out. A definite epiphany for him!

I will keep tryinnng.

I will keeep trinnnng

First a quick "basic harmony" review:

I      = 1,3,5
IIm    = 2,4,6
IIIm   = 3,5,7
IV     = 4,6,1
V7     = 5,7,2,4
VIm    = 6,1,3
VIIdim = 7,2,4

Key of E and its Corresponding Modes

I      = E           E  Ionian
IIm    = F#m         F# Dorian
IIIm   = G#m         G# Phyrgian
IV     = A           A  Lydian
V7     = B7          B  Mixolydian
VIm    = C#m         C# Aeolian
VIIdim = Ebdim       Eb Locrian

I use two approaches ....

A) The "Circle of 5ths"approach ....

I to IIIm to VIm to IIm to V7 to I ....

B) The "Linear Progression"approach ...

I to IIm to IIIm to IV , etc

OK, First thing I would do is convert to the Number System ....

I  I  I  I  I  V7  I  I  I  I  IV7  IV7  I  V7  I  I  

Then I'd substitute

I  I  IIIm  VIm  IIm  V7 I  I  IIm  IIIm  IV  IV  I  V7  I  I7

Notice I'm only sub-ing for the I chord ...

I'm keeping the minor chords basic ... No extensions.

I changed the I to I7 at the end ... to lead to the A chord in the part {B}.

I like leaving V7 alone and gettin' rid of the 7th on the IV (cause it screws up my lydian).

Now the Modes:

E Ion - E Ion - G# Phy - C# Aeo - F# Dor - B Mix ...

E Ion - E Ion - F# Dor - G# Phy - A Lyd - A Lyd ...

E Ion - B Mix - E Ion - E Mix

I thought this was an exercise in "improvosation" so I just modified the chord progression and put in the modes.

These changes may not "FIT" the melody ... I didn't even check ...

I would play the modes using the "root note" approach, the "whole step box" approach and better yet both.

I would also run up and down the neck using reverse and forward slants .... (Strings 1-2, 1-4, 2-3, and 2-5).... occasionally falling into a "whole step box" for some speedy single note stuff.

Just my way of lookin' at it

[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 29 May 2003 at 10:33 AM.]

There was so many I chords and only a few V7 and IV ... it just seemed right to leave them in their place and use them as the "control" (sorry ... more scientific stuff )

As far as the Dorian Mode ... in a classically harmonized piece ... it is used for the IIm chord .... I believe that it can be used effectively over ANY minor dominant 7 chord though.

Like:

I   VIm7   IIm7   V7   I

E   C#m7   F#m7   B7   E

You could use ...

E Ion  C# Dor  F# Dor  B Mix  E Ion

The Phyrgian and Aeolian modes can also be used over minor chords and minor dominant 7 chords ... they certainly will give you a different "flavor" (I'm tired of color ... ha, ha);

Some combinations are sure to be more "musical" than others though ...

As far as your second post/question ...

Thats exactly what I do over fast changing chords in a key .... stick with the major scale (Ionian Mode) .... and hope I land/pause on the appropriate note

[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 29 May 2003 at 06:03 PM.]

quote:

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what can you do when the changes are coming fast with a chord type for only one or two beats duration.

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If you are modulating out of key, like going to the IV chord F, then at some point you'll have to start introducing Bb's which will imply G- > C7. As soon as the Bb's turn up, you are modulating out of C to F, because the key of C doesn't have Bb in it and the only ket that has a C7 is F.

[This message was edited by chas smith on 29 May 2003 at 10:28 AM.]

A section = |Bb Gmin|Cmin F7|Bb Gmin|Cmin F7|Bb Bb7|Eb Ab7|Cmin F7|Bb |

61/2 measures fit the Bb major scale. Measure 5 and 6 require a slight alteration - use the notes Ab on beats 3 and 4 of bar 5 (Bb mixolydian) and beats 1 and 2 of bar 6(makes Eb have a parent major scale of Ab,"E mixolydian"?), and use Gb and Ab on beats 3 and 4 of bar 6 (Ab mixolydian). The rest of the progression can be thought of as the Bb major scale.

The B section was a series of Dom7 chords that followed the "circle of fifths" i.e. in the key of Bb for the B section = |D7 |D7 |G7 |G7 |C7 |C7 |F7 |F7 |

*You can also play the bridge like a series of ii-V's. = |Amin7 |D7 |Dmin7 |G7 |Gmin7 |C7 |Cmin7 |F7 |. I like this way best. The [A] section gets reharmonized all the time, that [A] section I shared with you up above is the basic way to play it.

Outline the chords on the B section with their arpeggios.

This was the main cutting contest progression used in the 40's at jazz jams. It has a variety of harmony and motion, but didn't stray to far from home base. (Ear players) could stick around the Bb major scale, insert the blues scale from time to time, play the dom7 chords on the bridge and sound pretty good. Some sounded excellent! The first and last measure of the [A] section can be Bb major or Bb7. Just make sure the Rhythm section is doing the same thing. *Jamey Aebersold has a great book/tape out on how to approach "I got Rhythm" .

[This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 30 May 2003 at 01:04 PM.]

One of the beauties of using the modes is for those too fast chord changes flying by.
If your working the modes right, the chords should just fall on the modes, because They are to some extent derived from them.

This the opposite face of Jesse's expanding small changes with bigger modal work on top.

quote:

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It was the most beautiful solo I had ever heard. It seemed so fluid and just wove through the chord changes.

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The situation that arises when you use "alternative" modes for minors ...

Ex.)  A G# Dorian when the key calls for a G# Phyrgian .... 

... is that you will get extension notes that are outside of the key.

This may or may not be bad ... alittle outside can be ... too much may sound like you are lost.

Just wanted to drop in quickly to see if the discussions had gone into thermal meltdown ...or had to be discontinued for Howard's safety.

4 days ago I was rather taken aback by the opposite happening of the simplicity I was attempting to demonstrate in the mode / substitution work; .....But YIKES! ....Today I find that since Jesse's entry 28 May 2003 04:40 PM, things have been led back to EXACTLY what I had intended and had hoped could be recovered.

I must say Guys, from my perspective and intent, (not that my intent is any more important than anyone else's), that the discussions have come full circle and seems to understand what I intended quite well, and have a very good grasp of the examples that make the SIMPLICITY of the mode / substitution template the rather profound stand-alone axiom and musical grounding chassis it is separate from the infinite complicated abstract and confusion that can be added to it just like can be added to the stand-alone simplicty of scales and triads (which is all modes are anyway, just with less recognized names that are easier to say than "that minor seven flat six / flat nine scale and chords that make that mid-eastern sound").

If I had a single line of advice, it would be: "THE VERY BEST WAY TO LEARN AND USE MODES IS TO FIND IN THEM WHAT YOU ALREADY PLAY!....And NOT to get caught up in the infinite and often confusing abstract of what can be applied to them!" You can see how difficult and confusing and distracting it can get by Jesse's, Rick's and my attempts to reconcile our different thinking ... which was thoroughly enjoyable ... but got pretty close to red-line on some pyrometers. (I hope Howard is OK!). So if that is distracting to anyone, then like Dave's excellent advice and results said a couple of posts back, ...just look for whatever you already know in the mode template. After all, it IS laid out amazingly simple on our 6th tuned necks.

ALOHA,
Denny T~

ps: For those that find using a 12" ruler difficult; Here is a much simpler method

cr2003wdt

[This message was edited by Denny Turner on 02 May 2005 at 04:43 AM.]

But what I did find was something cool! We have the G Mixolydian/G13 box at the 7th fret(ext box down) and we have it's related "G Altered Dom7" box at fret 8 to 10.

E = |9 A|  |3 B|4  C|  |5  D|
C = |b7F|  |1 G|b9Ab|  |#9A#|
A = |5 D|  |13E|b7 F|  |1  G|
G = |4 C|  |5 D|#5#D|  |b7 F|
E = |9 A|  |3 B|4  C|  |5  D|
C = |b7F|  |1 G|b9Ab|  |#9A#|
Fret.5frt..7frt.8frt....10frt  

G Altered Dom7 scale = 1 b9 #9 3 #4 #5 b7 1
..................................G Ab A# B C# D# F G

You can do a tri-tone Substitution and move the G13/G altered dom7 up to Db13/Db Altered dom7. This is very cool to do sometimes in a ii-V-I progression. ii D dorian, V G Mixolydian/G altered dom7(up a b5 from the 5 chord = Db Dom7/Db Altered dom7), 1 C major 9. As you can see, our ii-V-I with a tri-tone sub on the dom7 gives our root notes a chromatic run(D,Db,C), bass players like this a lot. Use Denny's chart to find the positions.

*A tri-tone or up b5 substitution are the same notes as the original 5 chord(dom7), it's just another way to invert the same notes without having to think about it that much. That's why this approach was such a big deal in bebop.

Charlie Parker would play a "A major triad over G7" and a "D# major triad over Db7". The triads are the upper partials of the dom7 chord they fit over. Bird used the triads as his important melody notes when soloing.

[This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 30 May 2003 at 11:11 AM.]

quote:

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I want to get comfortable with the feel and sound of the modes relative to their associated chords before I start trying different combinations. I'm relatively new to steel guitar and I want to be firmly grounded in the basics.

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Then try it over a repeating pair of chords
( examples I,V or II,V or II, IV or IIIm, V etc.).

Then over a repeating trio of chords (example I,I,II,V),

and when you hit a cycle of 4 chords, things will really be jumpin out at ya.
( VI, II, V, I, of course, but also bIII, II, bII, I and many others)

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 30 May 2003 at 01:44 AM.]

THE REGULAR POSTED MESSAGE FOLLOWS:

            -------------------------------------------------

AHA... YOU CAUGHT ME JESS. I owe you a quart of Thunderbird! My statement was dead wrong in mis-stating the correct modes I intended to state. Here's what I originally said:

quote:

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25 May 2003 03:43 AM

Seems allot easier to me ... mentally and by experience ... and more accurate ... to Play "I"Aeolean or bVIIMixolydian around a "I"Maj6 Ionian armature than having to compute that upper end of "I"Major6 Ionian ... expecially if adding harmonies. And actually, if I use my cowboy / country licks in bVIIMixolydian (where I have allot more licks to work around than for Aolean in the same box), my ears will drive the hick stuff in that box congruent to correct line and harmony intervals for a IMaj6 theme ...and sound allot more trick than it really is by simply subbing a mode / box.

---

I went and corrected the message to reference the correct modes; It now reads:

quote:

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Seems allot easier to me ... mentally and by experience ... and more accurate ... to think / play "VI"Aeolean or "V"Mixolydian by root around a "I"Maj6 Ionian armature than having to compute that upper end of "I"Major6 Ionian ... especially if adding harmonies. And actually, if I use my cowboy / country licks in "V"Mixolydian (where I have allot more licks to work around than for Aolean in the same box), my ears will drive the hick stuff in that box congruent to correct line and harmony intervals for a IMaj6 theme ...and sound allot more trick than it really is by simply subbing a mode / box thinking and licks.

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SIDENOTE: Now for everyone's benefit, ... deeper discussions into modes can make pyrometers go up because it is rather difficult to find those points that make infinitely different concepts meld into the treasure doing so affords and the treasures that drop out of the rafters in the process. The pyrometers of discussing music theory (steel geetars, ukuleles and hula girls) is what Mai-Tai's were invented for!

With that said:
----------

The crux of that point in our discussions quoted above was your preference to work modes off of root. Now if you notice in my corrected paragraph quote above, ...my "VI"Aolean triad would set up quite similarly what you just said Parker would do with Aolean triads (and further melody built around it) over a Mixolydian mode; Which is using a different mode in substitution for another to exentuate a particular quality of the original mode's voicing theme; The only difference being you used the words "triads as his important melody notes when soloing", and I used the word "mode":

quote:

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"Charlie Parker would play a "A major triad over G7" and a "D# major triad over Db7". The triads are the upper partials of the dom7 chord they fit over. Bird used the triads as his important melody notes when soloing."

---

It seems to me that in the example you are giving about Parker, he is indeed excentuating the extensions of Mixolydian by thinking / playing Aolean over it. NOW, if he is going to think / excentuate / play off of a root like that, a whole step higher than the original theme mode root, then he would most likely play Dorian over Ionian to get the same effect with an Ionian theme ... ESPECIALLY using Dorian if the theme were announced as Ionian Maj9 (the example I used in that previous discussion).

Now, for the sake of reconciling words of different concepts:

In my way of thinking and playing:

In a lab situation where musicians are studying the meanings of building triads and extensions and scale voicings etc off of a theme-mode root ... OR if a musician is playing with the intent of excentuating that theme-mode root, THEN your statement about a working musician "never" playing Dorian over Ionian would be correct, but;

As you pointed out in the Parker example; A musician that knows modes and intending to excentuate note or interval qualities that are not root or root triad, could and likely would think and play another substitution mode that makes his/her management of the triads, chords and scales in such excentuations a heck of allot easier to manage than interpolating off of a note that wasn't root; Because by substituting the/a correct mode, all that math falls right back into place relative to the substituted mode root: (Ionian 2,4,6,7 = Dorian 1,3,5,6).

Help me out here. Are you saying Parker would play Aeolean over Mixolydian? And if so why would he not similarly play Dorian over Ionian?

--------------------

BACK TO THE STEEL MODE BOXES:

On the steel, the primary importance of mode boxes to me is: (1) the chord substitutions afforded for each root in different boxes which is the way we play different quality chords, and; (2) Which box will work with the types of licks I want to or can use at a given time, or; (3) which box remains in theme-mode for a certain tone or tone movement I hear or want to play around, or; (4) which box do I feel brave enough to try a certain lick in.

It is GOOD to realize that each of our known licks plays off of a different tone in each box, ... and after getting real lost and sounding like it in searching for those licks that will work in boxes we usually don't use them in, ...we start to be able to find the right places for the ones that do work and relate our licks differently as though each one of them become several new ones in their new boxes' tone relationships. A decent simple example to illustrate this is the song Summertime. Key of Amin. Boxes: VERSE: Am7(b6) / G6(7), Dm7 / G6(7), E(7), --- "INTERLUDE": CMaj(7) / C6(7) (signature chord of "A" Dorian in substitution), Am(7) / C6(7), Dmin(7) / G6(7), G(7) / G6(7), Amin7(b6) / G6(7). Summertimes's melody and harmonies in the "A" Aeolean box (G6/7 box) are simple 6(7) Dom7 box patterns; So Summertime can easily be played by even beginner Steelers playing in the Amin7b6 Aolean box (G6/7 box). BUT LOOK: (Amin7b6 box = G6/7/9/11 box = Dmin7 box = CMaj7 box)! So when a more experienced Steeler starts working that box with 6th box licks, or those Dorian slide licks, or with Maj7 licks, many of them are going going to work in there once he/she learns how to modify them to work with the tone they work around ... which is usually just a matter of listening and resolving at a good spot.

NEW INFO I'VE BEEN HOLDING SO AS NOT TO CONFUSE THINGS UNTIL IT SEEMED THE RIGHT TIME, LIKE NOW: The Dorian box signature chord is a much better voicing for an Aolean chord than in the Aeolean box (but the Dorian extensions will NOT work for Aolean). The Dorian box signature min7 chord is MUCH BETTER voiced b3,5,b7,1,b3,5 than the Aeolean box signature chord voiced b6,1,b3,4,b6,1 . So using Dorian chord in place of Aolean chord is better. A bit of tinkering with it will reveal that the Aolean scale and harmonies are on either side of the Dorian signature chord fret. So with some woodshedding you can move from the Aolean box into the Dorian box below or above the Aeolean for lower or higner notes and have allot of room to play Aolean stuff there with an adjusted pattern. Using Summertime as an example again, the notes in the "Hush little baby" and it's last word "cry" can be played on the open C6 chord ("A" Aolean).

An illustration of voicings that occur in susbtitution inversions can be heard in an ending embellishment for Summertime ... by experimenting with different strings ( using 3 or 4 string chords) on these chords as a last final V chord embellishment (4 quarter notes of the last 2 beats of the last 4/2 measure being continually slowed way down for the end): G6, F6, GMaj7, GMaj7, then slowly strum across CMaj6 chord. You will find there is a myriad of ways to play that passage ... which is why I used that one.

[tab]
CMaj6 (The bar tip holds the 2nd fret notes to sustain / decay together).
]------------0---
]----------0-----
]--------2-------
]------2---------
]----0-----------
]--0-------------
[tab]

PILIALOHA,
DT~

[This message was edited by Denny Turner on 31 May 2003 at 07:06 AM.]

Thanks a mil for the really good stuff you guys are posting. Full circle; You guys really threw the anchor out. I had to put super-glue on my RH finger tips and thumb so I could play yer stuff and run the mouse without finger / thumb picks! But now I got one finger stuck in my nose.

Looks like CB's having a heyday on his neck.

Speakin of necks ....I hope Howard is OK.

And Thanks to the other folks for such good particerpatience!

Oops; Gotta run hide; The trash man is here to collect his bill; Hope he doesn't stop delivery!