Better you than me this time....

You're Next Wise Guy. Gene works cheaper,I cant
always afford you besides you are not a COWBOY. You are part Indian, I know I have seen your "feathers" I forget which part

[This message was edited by Jody Carver on 27 July 2003 at 05:39 PM.]

Harry

Even though I discovered and wrote the darn system ...simply passing on a gift from the cosmos that litterally jumped off the fret board one night after several months searching for it, and attacked my face and brain like an octopus in heat....; What it affords continues to excite and amaze me and truely did open the barn door to the music cosmos for me, where I can now play along with just about anyone and any style of music; ...which affords a profound freedom to learn from cumulative experiences and experimentaion in that realm.

A current case in point:

A Friend that stops by the shop and house several times a week is one of those guys that carries some type of guitar with him just about everywhere he goes, even if it's just his midget baritone-ukulele-size classical guitar; ...and he rather subconciously can and does carry on a normal conversation while playing free-form chord voicings to tonal passages that seem to be always floating around in his head, ...a subconcious ambience of background music that's disconnected from the ongoing verbal conversation, if you will. A number of great and famous guitarists are/were that compulive about music.

For about a year now I have been greatly enjoying casually jamming with this Friend around the shop and house when I have to time to do it. He will play delicious extention chord voicings to melodic tones that drift in his head or particular tone-center lines or patterns he had mentally cataglogued and come to mind at the moment. Most of what he hears in his mind is modally-grounded melodic even if it's not of the church-mode parent scale; Allowing whatever parent scale he is hearing at the moment to drift through the modes of the parent scale in his head ...which he applies the delicious and exotic chord voicings to without much concious pre-thought about it. He himself did not know that his brain was processing tones modally until I explained it to him; Actually meaning nothing more than his brain having a great ear and processing notes that are all harmonic to each other via a master scale of notes as an armature to work from ...which is the amazingly SIMPLE meaning of modes in the first place (with everything else applied to modes being the complications most Musicians shy away from due to the complexity of the historically vast accumulations of discussions and ideas applied to the SIMPLICITY of modes). I would have been quite lost on Steel Guitar prior to my finding and working with the modal approaches. But having now worked with it for a few years as THE foundation of my Steel playing, I am usually able to follow right along with whatever comes out of this Friend's head / fingers; And quite amazing to me is that doing so up and down the Steel fretboard usually happens ever-increasingly with fewer seams the more I use the modal approaches (which of course is normal to practice and exposure more than to any approach), ...with my subconcious moving my hands and fingers to usually correct modal fret-box positions way ahead of my concious thinking that's often way behind in trying to figure out the positional math of what my auto-motor sub-concious and hands are finding. Of course this is what we all strive for in developing seamless translation from our ears and/or brains to our hands ...and a darn good gauge of how well that is occuring in our learning curve. I might also mention that if my hands move to an incomplete modal box, the old 1/2 step trick comes into play, of knowing that ANY "wrong" note (inharmonious) is only 1/2 step away up or downscale to a harmonious note that will make the inharmonious note sound like it was intended. Another technique I have noticed that my brain has picked up with the modal methods, is that I can carry several simultaneous notes up / down the fretboard by drifting the Tone Bar until those several notes become harmonic, usually in the fully modal fret box, ...but if not when the other fret in the box is moved to, then the old 1/2 step trick comes into play on one or two notes that can be slanted into harmony, and the hand resumes carrying several notes somewhere else in search for the fully modal box. In these brain-motor processes, whatever my hands are playing can usually be carried up and down the neck in a remarkably convincing manners ...particularly by walking slant bar positions that also help the brain register on the fully modal fret-box, ...which is afforded by the brain hearing and knowing the modal connections in whatever tonal voicings are being followed / sought in the flow of the music.

As I encounter particularly interesting places my subconcious goes to, I can remain and experiment in that fretboard box long enough for my concious brain to catch up analytically and experiment long enough to try to slip some of that interesting place into my memory ...although recalling from that memory is allot less succesful than putting it there in the short time spent in that fretboard box before moving along to what might come next from my Friends tone / chord passages; But repetition builds those experiences into ability.

In any event, ...I continue to be often amazed and excited about the barn door to the music cosmos that the modal substitution / navigation concepts have afforded me on the Steel Guitar ...and even carried back over to spanish and bass guitar where my use of modal concepts began many years ago. A very simple exercise a person can immediately do to realize the treasure of modal approaches (a demonstration and NOT a playing technique until it is fully understood and developed), is to pick up a bass guitar and play NOTHING more than ANY combination of notes in the mode a simple and familiar song is written upon. If the song is written around Dominant 7 scale / chords, then just play the IVMaj7 scale notes (because IVMaj7 = I7) ... nothing more; And if the song is written in min7 like most all blues are, then play nothing but bVIIMaj7 scale notes (because bVIIMaj7 = Imin7). When the chords change, STAY on the 1 (one / I) chord throughout the song. Although taste and flavor come from the manner in which notes are played in passages, the ability to make ANY combination of notes work by playing nothing more than the mode scale, is quite revealing of what the SIMPLE armature of modal approaches is all about and affords.

I also look at that Ab maj scale as it's Fminor / relative minor scale too.

So I can play off of either, as well as slipping those 1/2 note on or off mode/scale blue notes in there.

Since this thread, my C6 6 string work be came very natural.
But also on the 10 string w/pedals it became less of a Serengehttli plain of notes, and more a nice bunch of cool places for licks.

I was using similar stuff on my 6 string bass, but this thread expanded that too.

Said it before, I'll say it again. MERCI DENNY!!!

Also, from the ist page (I'm really forging ahead).....John Steele writes:

(quote) When I refer to the "melodic minor" (jazz minor) above, the scale is identical to the major scale except the third tone is flattened.. whether going up or down.
In classical theory it's different ascending than descending.[/quote]

I thought the melodic minor was basically a natural minor scale with the 6th and 7th notes of the scale raised 1/2 step (ascending). I'm not clear on the flatting of the 3rd note of the scale.

[This message was edited by HowardR on 11 May 2004 at 05:08 PM.]

quote:

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To me, starting with the important tones that for me are more easily recognized out of the major position is a good "set up" for flowing into the mode area. At least starting out. Once you have it under your hands and know the tones one could obviously start anywhere they wanted to. Any feedback on this

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Thats exactly how I taught myself modes years ago ... as stated way back in this "monster" somewhere.

Instead of huntin' it down in this thread ... have a look at my approach here ..

Church Modes in C6

Howard, I always play C6/A7 and as you said ... just bump up that 6th string ... no biggie

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www.horseshoemagnets.com

[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 05 January 2005 at 06:49 AM.]

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quote:

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Steel players do it without fretting

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http://www.waikiki-islanders.com

So, what exactly is meant by "church modes"? Just a family of common modes or something? Are they all built on the same sequence of intervals?

I'm fairly versed in theory, but I've never heard this phrase before.

Etymology, anyone?

-Dm

[This message was edited by Dwayne Martineau on 19 May 2004 at 12:01 PM.]

And hey, what's up; Mom sent me to the store this morning for a loaf of bread and when I got back home you guys had moved ! Didn't have anything to do with my new "big" biker chick girlfriend I brought home last night did it? She is gonna get her nose and teeth fixed, you know.

Aloha,
RHRF,
DT~

[This message was edited by Denny Turner on 19 May 2004 at 03:28 PM.]

Church modes is a not-uncommon slang word meaning modes derived from a Major 7 scale. We inherited modal approaches to the Maj7 scale from about 400 years of Classical Music theory.

But when jazz guys during the be-bop era started experimenting around with "moding" more exotic scales and moding each of the modes of the Maj7 scale off of each other; Then the term "church modes" appeared "tongue in cheek" to mean modes of the Maj7 scale like this discussion chain is based upon, and to differentiate those simple first generation modes of the Maj7 scale from exotic modes such as the Super Locrian discussed earlier in this discussion chain.

I hope and trust all is going well for you and yerz in Sandy Eggo.

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Last Saturday night I hosted a beach party for 25th Infantry guys coming back from the oil / heroin war. Late in the evening we were sitting around with a few guitars and a harmonica picker. He could wail on dom7 cross-harp Blues ...but was lost on minor progressions. So I did a little cross-harp mental math (a real brain strain) to translate / transpose his harp key selection so it would sub for minor mode even though he was still "sucking dom7" cross-harp licks. It worked like a charm. With just a little note & technique surfing, he's suddenly blowing minor harp he had just said he couldn't do. We wound up doing cross-harp subs for all 7 modes to show him what he COULD do! Of course it wouldn't have got him into Berkelee ...but that's not the point!

Aloha,
DT~

[This message was edited by Denny Turner on 01 June 2005 at 05:09 AM.]

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Return to Paradise! Visit Island Song Lyrics

Just one reply from a small brain, regarding Sleepwalk chorus:

Chorus F Fm C F C
F Fm C Bb C G7

Shouldn't the Bb be Eb? Anyone? Anyone?
Sure, there's a Bb in Eb, different voicing.... but much can be implied when not overstated.

I am happy to have grown up with piano theory, which explains why I can follow threads by Chas Smith and Mike Neer more easily, thinking linearly rather than vertically.
The first time I heard of the different modes--I mean, Ionic and Doric were column capitals to me--was from young guitar students, fluent in this manner of speaking; and I wondered: do they actually use this in practice? I grew up playing Blind George Shearing, not Blind Lemon Jefferson. And Bird, he was just playing different lines over old changes. Thus it is no wonder that I failed so badly with pedal steel, having reach the Peter Principle of music.

Mr. Smith: if you are still reading, could you get in touch with me? I'm still trying to find some work of yours from the 80's, solo steel that caused me to fall in love with the sound. There is a missing tune you may be able to help me find, and the album it was on.

This has been fascinating stuff. I hear the swansong, for the present.
Charlie

You sure describe Carlos' (and a number of others') formula for a long time!

I'm just an old jam-band nut(case). Many years now of rather casual exposure to academia has come full circle and left the simple modal structure as my loose / simple road-map and armature for all the other years of fortunate / valuable mumbo-jumbo to flow upon with the least amount of a-do. I guess the "keep it simple" / "note & brain budgeting" / alter ego of academia is a path to the freedom of reasonably accomplished laziness! (Watt'd he just say? )

aholA,
DT~

[This message was edited by Denny Turner on 01 June 2005 at 03:23 PM.]

I can't tell what context and/or SGF posting (?) of the Sleepwalk bridge you're referring to. My brain is too often like a pea lost in a shell game! It would help if you reference the posting or expound upon the context you are referring to with the whole bridge progression in measures so my pea can grasp the space/time you're referring to. Example:

The chorus in simple terms is:

4/4: F - - - / Fm - - - / C - F - / C - C7 - /
     F - - - / Fm - - - / G - Bb - (A>Ab) / G - - - /

Sleepwalk is indeed a good song to demonstrate and use scale / chord / position / voicing substitutions ...and connect those meanings to the scales'/chords' simple & congruent modal structure. For instance, the G#6 position subs for the Fm in the bridge because G#6 is also an Fm7 voicing. Sleepwalk is also a good example for brain exercise (for those so inclined) because it changes keys for the bridge ...giving us some simple song-familiar insight into the mechanics of I IV V key changes vs I IV V tone center movements within the same tonic key. So I am most interested in what you are referring to, to take a look at and discuss.

Thanks,
Aloha,
DT~

[This message was edited by Denny Turner on 17 October 2005 at 01:45 AM.]

I see what you mean; searching back thru the posts on this topic, my brain is starting to feel like Swiss cheese....

Nonetheless, I think I have answered my own question, through the quest.
Terry Farmer, back on page 4, wrote the Sleepwalk chart this way:

Sleepwalk
Verse - C Am Fm G etc.....
Turnaround C F C G7
Chorus F Fm C F C
F Fm C Bb C G7

You corrected the last line:
F Fm G Bb G etc.

So, looking for the thread, I missed the cloth. The G makes the Bb work for me.

Thanks for taking the time to ease my mind.
The above shows how linear my mind is.

So what I find is that, over the years, in my head sometimes, and without the background in string theory, I've been making these chord substitutions on my own.
Thanks for the brain teasers, and I'll keep reading. Perhaps on steel, I can look at it differently. That's why I play, for the challenge.