I've said several times that these mode box thangs aren't the music ... nor are they fat on technique; They're just a map that shows ALLOT of what's going on and where to go for woodshedding and grounding. They also afford a VERY good picture of the simplicity of mode templates, and why substitution works ...for folks that might benefit from that picture. God knows modal theory can sure be discouraging in quantity and quality.

My thrust right now is to just get people to surf the mode boxes to realize just how much there is in them. THAT develops the same ear concepts you were mentioning. The mode boxes are one of the very best and easiest and simplest techniques I have ever encountered for woodshedding toward getting that bigger horizontal map ... or in my case, several smaller ones compared to your excellent examples.

THANKS AGAIN. Some day I'm going to somehow get the full time to come and really study the tremendous stuff that folks are posting here. If I could ever figure out how to get my printer to print a webpage bigger than a postcard, I'd have this stuff in a stack on the john where I would have time!

My brain has been absolutely roasted the last few days trying to figure out direction that will help allot of folks here without alientating newer pickers that might benefit the most. My wife says I have a boil on my butt; I think it's a brain tumor.

On the other hand there has been so much incredibly good stuff pour forth from these discussions that it would be sinful to try to discourage ANYones' offerings due to complexity. Shootz ....this is one of if not the best "labs" I have ever attended both as a student and teacher and Picker. I can remember only one Classical Theory class course I think I might have gotten as much benefit from; And I haven't even had the chance to apply reading / thinking depth to all of it yet!

So where do we go from here in that matrix? My dizzy scorched brain woke up this morning obviously having fretted over this stuff (for direction) in my sleep (for days); And had a mung idea of what to suggest. So as I am getting some caffeine and nicotine into my blood for an IQ bump back up to 80 or so ... I surfed in to see how many more sandbags I might need for the bunker; And lo and behold I see yer last post beating me to the punch of the jist I had in mind! No kidding, almost verbatum.

I'm not so sure that a separate discussion thread is the answer, and don't think so, although that occured to me. Where would one draw a line? When someone asks "why is such-and-such so, it would take answers similar to the complexities posted here ... and certainly to explain it thoroughly. Maybe a better idea is for when we are going to post theory-related information, ...we rate it in music education level 1 thru 5. That way folks at those different levels can find / get what they're looking for and not be discouraged in the process.

Or heck, maybe it ain't no big deal.

I'm wide open for suggestions ... and need them so I don't worry.

ALOHA,
DT~

[This message was edited by Denny Turner on 03 June 2003 at 05:07 AM.]

         =======================================================
               A Simple but Cosmic All-Modes Exercise.

       (Level 2, of 5 being highest.  Requires being able to hold 
        and not drop the bar, and read rythm count in 4/4 - 8/8.)

OK; This exercise if for Lost Galxie Airmen and Aliens at the wheel. Folks rooted solid in Patsy Cline might not be able to hear much less appreciate it (but don't let it discourage you or hate me if you can't appreciate this exercise; There will likely be plenty of stuff in the styles you like as this forum moves along). This is an exercise using a simple Avante Garde Funk rythm. I tried to find something rather simple that would lend itself to ears that would likely catch all the modes in context played over a simple but motivating Mixolydian theme.

Playing some of the modes right off of the root over the Mixolydian rythm breaks some rules; But at the same time, in the right context such as this exercises simplicity, it shows that the rules are not always commanding.

EASILY copping Phrygian and Lydian sounds takes a special feeling and people atuned to it (and are the least important modes to people that don't particularly care for unusual sounds and would rather stick to simple songs / sounds); And Aeolean over Mixolydian REALLY takes that special feeling and people who can appreciate it. I think this is that feeling; where folks that would like to explore unusual sounds and contexts of modes, can cruise with this rythm just a little bit,

...then experiment with any combination of notes in the box a little bit, coming back to play the rythm to keep the feel going. It's important to some teaching / learning technique to play the rythm about as much as the box surfing, even if you're playing along to a BiaB or sequencer.

...and then start playing each mode's 1-8 note proper scale sequence in the box (8th notes work good), from root to root, (up or down scale doesn't matter) ...which establishes each mode, ...then go back to the rythm. When you have the time, try going up the neck with the scale a ways and fall back into the box and back to rythm.

After playing any mode scale passage up the neck to hear that mode with your ear, go right back to the box, experiment some and pick up the rythm again. I have found that when I am about to return to the rythm in this example exercise, it works well to play mostly the open strings in the box for a few notes and then slide up into the 2nd fret to end the passage at picking up the rythm ... working down to the lower strings has a nice sound in any mode. Try to notice how a passage's ending notes can accentuate what was heard in the passage. BE SURE TO explore the different string combo harmonies on each fret in the box. Again, the box itself has tons of note combinations and harmonies to explore, so don't get stuck on that "mostly open notes" mention. ANYTHING works in the box ... some better than others, and you will find your own new stuff with just a little time and patience.

If you're new to or not real familiar with hearing modes and unfamiliar sounds they create, just hang in there and play the rythm allot and then try some short things in the box with any notes in the box, and return to the rythm.

After awhile you'll begin to notice that it matters what note you start with and end with for each modes sound ... BUT IT'S NOT CRITICAL for this exercise; And you'll notice that if you're listening, ..then whatever mode you established with it's scale context, can be supported with how and what note(s) you end the passage (start and end on the same note an octave apart until the idea starts to sink in). A GREAT THING ABOUT THE BOXES IS THAT YOU CAN'T HIT A WRONG NOTE in that box's mode stacking context; You can only hit better or lesser notes ... and learning to hear / find the better notes doesn't take an extraordinary amount of effort to develop; Just woodshed.

The level of the other Musicians and music environment you ALREADY play in rather automatically establishes what level of theory you will find in the boxes and apply to them.

I think you'll begin to hear how modes in melody, vamping and rythm work together. After awhile you'll even be able to hear ideas in your head specific to learning / playing the boxes, and will notice theme tones in each mode, and be able to play the box congruent with the stuff and tones you hear. There's no rush. When you start to find things in the styles of music you like, the boxes will work for you commensurate with the amount of time you have to experiment with them. You might not like this example exercise at all; That's OK; Stick with the styles you like.

-------------------------------

THE EXCERCISE:

This is not a song; It's an exercise in getting to know different mode sounds ... and to demonstrate the cornucopia of stuff that is in the boxes in different contexts (composition and feeling), ...and how easy it is to learn what modes are in their simple forms.

The whole nine yards here is to demonstrate once again how the boxes lend themselves to ANY notes therein being harmonic to each mode, and each mode having it's own character that will change the feel of the theme mode (D Mixolydian in this example) ... and just a little bit of experimenting will find all sorts of stuff. The more you experiment ... hopefully with all the mode boxes with what ever songs or styles or experimenting you like to hear ... the more you will find.

Once you get a good grip of what's going on below, ...then you can even twist yerself up a Mai-Tai or sody-pop ... put on yer panty hose and WWI pilots cap / goggles ... and zin on out.

[Mode root in every box] [Roots of the modes in this box]
  Aol---X---Loc          E---X---F#    E Aolean    F# Locrian
  Lyd---X---Mix          C---X---D     C Lydian    D  Mixolydian
  Dor---X---Phr          A---X---B     A Dorian    B  Phrygian
  Ion---X---(Dor)        G---X---A     G Ionian    (A)(duplicated in Dorian)
  Aol---X---Loc          E---X---F#    E Aolean    F# Locrian
  Lyd---X---Mix          C---X---D     C Lydian    D  Lydian

    Martian Cowboy Avante Garde Mode Funk
    D6/7 box Mixolydian RYTHM:
    Nice feel at 119bps 4/4
    (This rythm might not come easy.  It's not difficult, just keep at it
     for a bit and you will get it. Build / practice it, a quarter note at
     a time.)

    ]----------------------------------
    ]----2-0---2---0-----2-0---2---0-2-
    ]----2-0---2---0-----2-0---2---0-2-
    ]----2-0---2---0-----2-0---2---0-2-
    ]----2-0---2---0-----2-0---2---0-2-
    ]--0-----0---0-----0-----0---0-----
4/4    1   2   3   4   1   2   3   4
8/8    * * * * * * * . * * * * * * * *

Now modify this exercise to your own taste of style and rythm.

cr2003wdt

The way Jeff explains Holdsworth's approach is exactly the way I've assimilated this material. The numerical charts that Jesse, Rick and Denny and others have worked so hard to provide don't really work for my learning style.

I needed to make a visual map of the fretboard with dots for each note position of the scales (but avoiding the duplicate notes in Denny's charts). This is similar to the way Jerry Byrd & Buddy emmons have mapped out scales in their instruction materials. What you wind up with is a full map of the neck showing you all the places you can play notes that will fit a given progresion. I don't think about the modes names at all - just about sliding this full-neck template back and forth and listening to the sounds they produce. I let my ear guide me to the chromatic notes & passing tones that make these positions live as music. This is just one person's approach - I'm more visual, right-brain oriented than left brain in my learning style.

[This message was edited by Andy Volk on 03 June 2003 at 07:36 AM.]

Jeff, Allan Holdsworth lives out here and I ran into him in downtown San Diego one night (Gaslamp), where he likes to buy handrolled cigars. He is pretty tall and I got to talk about his I.O.U album from way back, Nice guy. I think you would like studying Miles Davis's Modal approaches. Your minor sound a minor third below your Imaj in a ii-V will give you a Major6/9 chord if you use a minor Pentatonic. Steely Dan loved the Major6/9 sound in their songs.

When I met the very nice Alan Holdsworth in NYC a few years back the most impressive thing for me wasn't his height.. which is impressive, but that I felt his hands would swallow mine to the elbow when we shook hands.

He can get some chord / note spacings that most people can't and I think that has also allowed him to look beyond many other players grasp of the neck.. because he HAS a bigger grasp on the neck.
Add to that when he plays his eyes are farther from the neck a bit and see's it as a less compressed whole.

I still think "Night and Day" would be a very good tune to have worked up, for it's particualr transitions relating to this threads ideas. As well as it being well known to many people.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 03 June 2003 at 08:25 AM.]

Sergie Rachmaninoff was believed to have had Marfan Syndrome ... a genetic disorder whose distinctive characteristics include unusually long arms, fingers, and toes.

Extremely mobile joints are another common characteristic.

I had a genetics professor who said that there are pieces he wrote and played on piano that basically cannot be played by anyone "normal" because they called for extreme "reach and flexability" ...

Sorry ... back to the topic

As Andy alluded to .... isn't it all about PATTERNS ... modal boxes, scales, written music, tab, etc ...

Regardless on how they got "into your head" to begin with ... don't we all rely on a set of patterns to get us through the "Heat of the Moment" ?

There just ain't enough time to think about what you are doing in "Real Time" ... like swinging a golf club or baseball bat ....

Even the hands of a "sight reading" musican playing an elaborate piece go to the proper position/pattern without actually THINKING about it.

It's just a memorized set of movements that your CNS executes .... independent from "Conscious Thought".

[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 03 June 2003 at 10:01 AM.]

*Since Dom7 chords are used a lot in jazz and blues, they will serve as the chord of the moment that the "rest of the band" is playing e.g. C7.

*(Approach #1)* You can minorize a Dom7 by superimposing a minor chord built off of the Dom7 chord's 5th note. e.g. C7 = G minor
Adding extensions to the substitute minor e.g. mi6th, mi7th,mi9th etc. introduces notes which further extend (or alter) the original chord. All of these substitute minor chords can be used as comping chords over the Dom7. (looks like the ii-V doesn't it? Cause it is!).

*Superimposing a minor chord over a major one creates new possibilities for single-line soloing. All of the scales and arpeggios normally used for minor chord improvising can be used over a minorized dominant. The most popular choices are:

1. Minor pentatonic
2. Dorian
3. Melodic minor
4. Minor 7th arpeggios with extensions (9th, 11th, 13th etc).

*Another great way to use the "blues scale trick/pg 6, 30 May 2003 @ 5:56 pm) is to use the 5th note of your Dom7 .e.g. E dom7 = B minor7 dorian = B blues scale only going up or down the 2nd string (11th fret)/inverted 4th voicing up and down the neck, against E dom7 (4th fret/mixolydian) This sounds O.K. on C6 non pedal steel.

**Rockabilly E dom7 = C# minor blues scale played on the 2nd string/1st fret, use the inverted 4th voicing on the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th string (H to L = C#, Bb, Ab). Use frets 1, 4, 6, 7, 8, 11, 13 for the notes found in C# min blues scale/inverted 4th voicing. This one sounds best to me for Swinging Hawaiian too. I let my ear lead me to this one. I'm not sure why this one works so good, but it might be that the inverted 4th voicing is related to C# phyrgian ( shares same parent scale as E Dom7) or it might be the related minor to E major which would turn it into C# Aeolean? Mostly I look at it as "2nd string E major blues scale/inverted 4th voicing trick over E Dom7 at the 4th fret".

**You can also use this same trick and switch from E major blues scale to E minor blues scale all on the 2nd string over E Dom7/4th fret (E minor blues scale/inverted 4th voicing trick, sounds O.K. over the 4 chord A7). E minor blues scale trick works good over the 4 chord because the 5th of the A7 chord is E, ergo: E min7/dorian etc substitution over a A Dom7. **But on the 5 chord B7, you can play the E minor blues scale/inverted 4th voicing, at the 4th fret 2nd string, play frets 4, 7, 9, 10, 11, 14, 16. Hear that? Yea, there's some good Rockin tonight!

**You can use this blues scale trick approach for any chord voicing, just experiment with it on guitar and steel and you will see what I mean. Sounds great on funk chords!

*(Approach #2)* THE TONE BELOW PRINCIPLE. Another way of making the dominant 7th chord sound jazzy is to substitute a major chord (maj7th, 6th, major 9th, etc) and scale, a whole step below the original Dom7. e.g. C7 = Bbmaj7. This works because all of the notes in the superimposed major chord (in this instance Bbmaj7) are the extensions of the original Dom7 chord (C7th). So you can play a Major scale a whole step below the Dom7 that the "band is playing" and get the following extensions found in the Dom7:

                 
Bb major = C Dom7
scale    = scale
1        =  b7
2        =  R
3        =  9th
4        =  #9th
5        =  4th (don't hang on the sus sound)
6        =  5th
7        =  13th

*This is a very popular way at looking at the Dom7 chord and getting outside with it's sound. I think these approaches work really well on the C6 non pedal steel and are easy to apply to the C6 neck.

[This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 06 June 2003 at 05:01 PM.]

Orville, following the melody of a song is how early jazz players would improvise in the beginning era of jazz.

[This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 04 June 2003 at 07:19 AM.]

I have played and recorded Rachmaninoffs 3rd Piano Concerto with William Wolfram on P piano.. yes huge hands and extra long arms.

Orville the Finger Pattern Memory is the way to have those garlic notes close by without thinking about them when doing variations on the melody.
I am pattern oriented, buyt try mightily to be fluid and not locked in to any one pattern, unless, on bass for example, it is absolutley the only correct part.

And I been groovin off "Mr. James" for decades on bass.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 03 June 2003 at 12:36 PM.]

As for reach, Tal Farlow was noted for his enormous hands that could reach "impossible" chord forms. To this natural capability he added a tremendous ear for reharmonization and recorded two handed techniques 30 years before they occured to Eddie Van Halen.

but I digress ... I agree with Orville and Jesse about "spice" and simplicity. After years of listening to bebop, it just started to leave me cold - all that running the changes. You contrast that to Louie Armstrong or Sydney Bechet's playing around the melody - so much personality and expression! Still, there are times when I'm playing lap steel that I hear Joe Pass in my head playing "gnat" notes but all that comes out my steel is Kenny G! (Sigh).

The templates that got this thread-a-polooza off the ground offer a fundamental map for taking things from the simple to as complex as one's ear and chops can handle. All the other approaches are valid too. In the end though, we're just making sounds and listeners couldn't care less how we arrived the sounds we make. All they care about is: "Do I like the sounds I'm hearing or not".

[This message was edited by Andy Volk on 03 June 2003 at 01:12 PM.]

**Rockabilly E dom7/4th fret = C# blues scale played on the 2nd string/1st fret, use the inverted 4th voicing on the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th string (H to L = C#, Bb, Ab). Use frets 1, 4, 6, 7, 8, 11, 13 for the notes found in C# min blues scale/inverted 4th chord. This one sounds best to me for Swinging Hawaiian too. I let my ear lead me to this one. I'm not sure why this one works so good, but it might be that the inverted 4th voicing is related to C# phyrgian ( shares same parent scale as E Dom7) or it might be the related minor to E major which would turn it into C# Aeolean? Yea, this one seems to work best for the C6 steel, on guitar it's not as good?

*I also just look at it as "E" major blues scale starting at the 4th fret on strings 2, 3, and 4. On a 1, 4, 5 chord progression, I phrase it like a sleazy swing, against the E major blues scale found in the 4th fret mixolydian modal box. On the 5 chord B7, I use E minor blues scale/inverted 4th chord trick starting on the 4th fret and take the minor blues scale up the second string/4th fret. The 4 chord can work with either Major or minor blues scale/inverted 4 chord trick. Adding jazz/hick stuff etc to it sounds pretty cool.

[This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 06 June 2003 at 03:56 PM.]

   Practical Basic Uses of Lydian / Dorian in Jesse's great example.
              An introduction to easy jazzy voicings.
   -----------------------------------------------------------------
 (Level 2-3.  Requires reading tab and simple time;  Might require an
intermediate-level ear for I, IV, V chords and their substitutions.)

Jess,

Regarding your WAY COOL blues-scale upward-stepped chord passage example;

PLEASE post us similar stuff you find based upon that.

Continuing to discuss that sucker should be a real lesson in why mode names are sometimes easier to refer to than other names and numbers; Unless I ain't hearing it the same way you are. But shootz; let's give it a try and see what we might similarly hear:

I am assuming the tonic is Edom7. (Because you are right; It works with just about any chord tones you apply it to in a harmonious context!).

(SIDENOTE:  Everyone please notice that the examples on this page DO NOT have
a tonic mode as a main congruent structure.  The examples here change modes
often;  Meaning they change keys around I, IV and V roots, in music theory
terms ... which is often not thought of as changing keys by many Musicians.
In loose terms, many Musicians would say the examples are in the key of E;
But because the examples have Mixolydian (dom7) in their I, IV and V chords,
they can't be following one key "church" mode.)  I myself think of it in the
key of E, but needed to explain that for clarity.

HEARING THE IV SUB: Check this lick / chord statement out; Then surf the the box to see the many Lydian / Dorian voices in the box that the lick sets up; ...experimenting with single notes and harmony of different string combinations straight bar (it's almost impossible to make a notes mistake)! Work it by playing Edom7 (E6 fret AND extensions notes at D6 fret) just as much so as not to lose that Edom7 as "I" tone:

                           
  (Yikes ... Pedals)             BOX
]----------0----=4-----    ---4---x---6-----------
]-------1--1--1-=4--4--    ---4---x---6-----------
]--2=1--1-----1-=4--4--    ---4---x---6-----------
]--2=1--------------4--    ---4---x---6-----------
]----------------------    ---4---x---6-----------
]----------------------    ---4---x---6-----------

The great example you provided set up the Lydian / Dorian big time with the 1st fret voicing, ... and the relationships of the remaining notes of your blues-scale-steps walk-up would depend upon what the rest of the band was doing. The whole passage does have a strong 1,b3,4,b5,5,b7,1 tones movement in most contexts I hear in your example. It sounds like it inverts much like a diminished does moving up in minor3rd steps (but it probably doesn't), only it does it on the blues scale steps.
Your example is also a great statement of a "subliminal" tonal air of suspense / mystery like "where the heck is I, IV, V and VImin ... UNTIL it is resolved by picking the IVdom7 back up in the song's theme. At least I hear it precursor to a IVdom7, ... but I can also hear the whole band stop at the end of the passage suspense point, a mini drum solo for a measure, and the band kicking hard in Idom7 again.

Here are similar tones set up closer to being resolved by a song going into it's IVdom7 theme:

Try this:

 The "I" chord tonic key is E.
      E               A               E                      E7/9
]-----------------------0---4----------------------------------------
]-----------4-----------1-1-4---4-------------4-5=6--11=13--16-------
]---------4-4---4---2=1---1-4---4---------4---4-5=6--11=13--16--16---
]-------4-4-----4---2=1-----------------4-----4-5=6--11=13--16--16---
]---3=4-4---------------------------3=4-------------------------16---
]---3=4--------------------------------------------------------------
 4/4  1   2   3   4   1   2   3   4   1   2   3   4   1    2   3   4

Here it is (in a simple form) left hanging way out for the surprise of a song's dom7 to kick in. When woodshedding this, ...after the passage, use an abundance of notes on the extension notes fret in IV & V dom7 stuff you make up yourself):

]-----------------------6==7==8----11=13---------
]-----1-----4-----6-----6==7==8----11=13----13---
]-----1-----4-----6-----6==7==8----11=13----13---
]-----1-----4-----6-------------------------13---
]---------------------------------------------------
]---------------------------------------------------
4/4   1  *  2  *  3  *  4  *  1  *  2  *  3  *  4

Here's some IV,V,I ideas:
Remember that I am a simplistic player; You might have much better ideas for chords and licks:

 The "I" chord tonic key is E7.
                                                              C#min7
       A7                              E6(not7)               Ebtriad        
]--------------9-8-7------------------------------------11----10-------
]------------9-9-8-7-7-------------------------9--10=11-11----10-10----
]----------9-9-------7-7-------------9=11------9--10=11----------10--
]--------9-9-----------7-7-------9---9=11---------------11----10-----
]----8=9-9---------------7-6-8-9-9-------------9--10=11----------10----
]----8=9-------------------6-8-9-----9=11----------------------------
4/4    1 * 2 * 3 * 4 * 1 * 2 * 3 * 4 * 1 * 2 * 3 * 4 * 1 * 2 * 3  *  4 

  F#min7          B7/9     b6      E
 -----9-----------11-9--------------------------------------------------
 ---9-9-----9-----11-9-9--------------3=4-3=4--------------4-----4------
 -9-9-9---9-9----------9-9---------11-3=4-3=4----------4-------4--------
 -9-9-----9-9------------9---------11-3=4-3=4------------4---4----------
 -9-------9----------------9-10-11-11-3=4-3=4---------------------------
 --------------------------9-10-11--------------------------------------
  1 * 2 * 3 * 4 * 1  * 2 * 3  *  4  *  1   *   2 * 3 * 4 * 1 * 2 * 3 * 4

Well that's about enough poop with a 103 degree temperature! YUK.

cr2003wdt

String 6-5 ... Major Third (C-E)

String 5-4 ... Minor Third (E-G)

String 4-3 ... Major Second (G-A)

String 3-2 ... Minor Third (A-C)

String 2-1 ... Major Third (C-E)

Somethin' like Dennys "pyramid run" example above really illustrates it ...

"Happy Maj 3rd" to the "Sad Min 3rd" to the "Uneasy Maj 2nd" ... back to the Min 3rd then to the Maj 3rd ... etc. etc

Makes for a very satisfying "strum" too

Just thought I'd throw that in ...

[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 05 June 2003 at 09:31 AM.]

I actually bought DeWitt Scott's 6-string C6 course yesterday, after I saw that I could get all of the slants he shows with pedals or a lever.

Here's a 12 bar blues in C to practice your substitutions over.

4/4 | C9 (Bb tonal center) | F9 (Cm tonal center) | C9 | C9 (Bb tonal center) | F9 | F9 | C9 |C9 | G9 (Dm tonal center) | F9 (Eb tonal center) |C9 |G9 | :repeat:

The (tonal center) stuff are just substitution ideas. There are 4 beats in a measure with the rhythm landing on the 1 beat and the & of the 2 beat". Think Grant Green...

Here it is for E blues, my favorite:

4/4 |E9 |A9 |E9 |E9 |A9 |A9 |E9 |E9 |B9 |A9 |E9 |B9 | :repeat:

[This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 05 June 2003 at 12:42 PM.]

There is also similar symetry between the "operating" frets in each box ... although I have not had the chance to thoroughly analyze it yet. The whole step between the 5th and 6th note in the tuning plays a big part in stringing out the intervals on both frets in each box in a manner that affords interval harmonies straight bar yet still functions as one side of the modal slide rule which remains congruent when slid along the church mode sequence on the other side of the slide rule.

In the box itself, harmony in the intervals you pointed out, is there straight-bar for whatever notes the ear selects on either fret of the box regardless of what mode is referenced. Meaning we can even play random notes in a box and the harmonies will be right there with it ... which is pretty phoenominal to me.

What is perplexing without having analyzed it, ...is that although the "operating" frets in the box are a whole step distance, ...the half steps in modal slide-rule sequences remain intact as the box on one side of the slide rule is referenced to any mode sequence on the other side of the slide rule. It's easy to say "Duhhhh, if it makes a church mode scale then it will work on the slide rule"; BUT, that just isn't the case as we can see with other tunings that DON'T / WON'T remain intact as one side of the mode slide-rule.

       Tying In Modes / Chords With Their 6th Chord Substitutions &
          Realizing That Each Mode's Box HAS an Arsenal of Notes
             Waiting For You in an Amazingly Simple Package.
                ---------------------------------------
                  Expanding on my last post examples;
             Easy development of jazzy chord substitutions.
       
       ===========================================================
         Difficulty Level 1-2. Must be able to play a 6th chord,
           and be able to basically understand and count time,
                and be able to figure out simple charts.

OK; Here are tabs I recently posted as the 1st 4 bars in working with Jesse's blues steps walk-up idea. The tabs are followed by resuming the "song" at the IV7 with shorthand notation.

Folks, NOW IS THE TIME, if you haven't already, to realize that EACH MODE'S BOX affords you the ability to make a VERY GOOD showing with jazzy licks. ANY NOTE AND HARMONIES COMBINATION IN THE CORRECT BOX WILL WORK (albeit a very few that don't quite sound as good as others). Each 6th chord has a mode box to the left of that chord AND to the right of that chord. You CAN simply play the 6th chord AS A SUBSTITUTION (the simple substitution method of my system vs it's other more complex methods of substitution). But above each 6th chord substitution I've written in the charts below, I've also provided a mode that will be in a box either to the left of the 6th sub chord or the right of the 6th sub chord; So if you're still not up to speed on knowing the specific notes of a box ... NO NEED TO WORRY ... ALL YOU GOT TO DO IS DETERMINE WHICH BOX SOUNDS RIGHT for what you WILL hear in the 6th substitution chord. Once you determine the correct box, you have got a cornucopia of passages for each chord ...and with just a little bit of woodshedding you can make a VERY GOOD showing playing jazzy stuff. Pretty soon you'll gain the confidence of being able to lines you hear AND THEIR HARMONIES WILL AUTOMATICALLY BE THERE if you're in the correct box.

TO GET USED TO THE SOUNDS, JUST USE THE 6TH CHORDS AT FIRST UNTIL YOU MEMORIZE THE PROGRESSION IN 6TH CHORD SUBSTITUTIONS; THEN go surf each of the stated modes' boxes that WILL have your arsenal of notes for each chord.

The L/R arrows in the notations below, show which side of the 6th substitution chord the box for that mode is in. MEANING ANY NOTES THEREIN WILL WORK FOLKS ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !

Here is my previously posted example of a passage that sets up for a resolution to IV7, .... followed by the shorthand notation that picks up at the IV7 the passage is leading to:

 The "I" chord tonic key is E.
      E               A               E                      E7/9
]-----------------------0---4-----------------------------------------
]-----------4-----------1-1-4---4-------------4-5=6--11=13--16--------
]---------4-4---4---2=1---1-4---4---------4---4-5=6--11=13--16--16----
]-------4-4-----4---2=1-----------------4-----4-5=6--11=13--16--16----
]---3=4-4---------------------------3=4-------------------------16----
]---3=4---------------------------------------------------------------
 4/4  1 * 2 * 3 * 4 * 1 * 2 * 3 * 4 * 1 * 2 * 3 * 4 * 1  * 2 * 3 * 4 *

     Mix.    A Dor.  Ab Phr. Ion.    Bb Loc.         Mix.
     <        >      <       <       <               <
     A6      C6      B6      E6      F#6             B6
4/4: 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 

     Mix.    Dor.    Mix.    Mix.    F# Dor. Mix.    Mix.
     <        >      <       <        >      <       <
     E6     *C#min6  E6-D#-D C#6     A6      B6      E6
     1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4

*use the C#min6 voicing on the first fret that Jesse gave us recently:
]---0---
]---1---
]---1---
]---1---
]-------
]-------

     E Mix.  E Aol.  Eb Loc. C# Dor. F# Dor. Lyd.Mix.Mix.
     <        >      <        >       >       >  <   <
     E6      C6      B6      E6      A6      F6  B6  E6
4/4: 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 

--------------------------------------

Here is an example of resolving Jesse's idea as it hangs in the air in suspense waiting to be resolved; Followed by an example of some nice relative changes that provide some jazzy movement to bring the C#min sound that's hanging out, back to Edom7:

]-----------------------6==7==8----11=13---------
]-----1-----4-----6-----6==7==8----11=13----13---
]-----1-----4-----6-----6==7==8----11=13----13---
]-----1-----4-----6-------------------------13---
]------------------------------------------------
]------------------------------------------------
4/4   1  *  2  *  3  *  4  *  1  *  2  *  3  *  4

     Mix.    F Dor.  C# Ion. Bb Dor. D# Dor. F#Dr. ADor. E Ion.
     <        >      <         >       >      > <   >  > <
     F#6     A6      G#6     C#6     F#6     A6 B6 C6 C6=B6=E6=B6
4/4: 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1  2  3  4  1  2  3  4

ALOHA,
DT~
still YUK.

cr2003wdt

ALOHA,
DT~

[This message was edited by Denny Turner on 06 June 2003 at 03:14 PM.]

I don't know if you noticed, but in all those shorthand notations after the tabs, it is most enlighening to find and play ONLY the triads of each of the modes noted. That provides the tonal movement I heard / used in those chord changes. I know you realize it, but for others that might not yet, ... I could have used other modes in each one of those 6th chord boxes for different tone movements.

--------------------

For folks that desire to discover or improve their ear for tone movements in chord changes, a good exercise is just to hum notes in half-time over chord changes, like a bass might do. Once you get the hang of that, you should then hum the root note you hear when a chord changes followed by whatever notes you desire until the next chord change where it's perceived root should be hummed again. To refine this technique, you should try to make your hummed notes not have wide note-intervals between them, and make them be linear and melodic like a good bass player does. Once you get the hang of this technique then you can do it on your steel ... where with a bit of woodshedding you will find that you can similarly play movements with 2 and 3 note chords TAKEN RIGHT FROM the correct place in the correct box that are all lined up like magic.

--------------------

I cannot overemphasize the importance of THOROUGHLY analyzing the CHARTS I posted 05 June 2003 08:06 PM. Every 6th chord, and every box, and each of the modes the 6th chord is subbing for should be indivudually and thoroughly analyzed until you clearly understand WHY the 6th chord subs for that mode chord in the same box, AND PARTICULARLY you should fully understand that notes to solo with in any combinations are all laid out in their correct "Homebase" 6th chord boxes with their harmonies laid out like Magic; You would have to deliberately try to make a mistake to play wrong notes if you are in the correct Homebase box!

---------------------

Sick puppy on the Northshore,
ALOHA,
DT

[This message was edited by Denny Turner on 06 June 2003 at 03:23 PM.]

I Dom7 = E7 = E major blues scale/ inverted 4th voicing starting on the 4th fret on strings 2, 3, 4. Frets 1, 4, 6, 7, 8, 11, 13. This is the C#minor blues scale if you start on the 1st fret. The 4th fret starts E major blues scale.

IV Dom7 = A7 = E major or minor blues scale/inverted 4th voicing starting on the 4th fret on strings 2, 3, 4.

V Dom7 = B7 = E minor blues scale/inverted 4th voicing starting at the 4th fret. Frets 4, 7, 9, 10, 11, 14, 16 on strings 2, 3, 4.

This approach has a great Rockabilly/Western swing feel to it.

For a full explaination of this approach, go to:

Page 6 of this thread, 30 May 2003 @ 5:56 p.m.

Page 7 of this thread, 3 June 2003 @ 9:27 a.m.

[This message was edited by Jesse Pearson on 06 June 2003 at 05:10 PM.]

          A Scale Note Sequence Pattern that overlays any mode box;
           Which will provide in-mode scale notes perfect IVths
            and Vths from every mode in the box.
          ------------------------------------------------------
             Music understanding level: 2-4 of 5 being highest.
              Provides general scale notes utility, level 2,
     but also provides some much deeper / advanced modal relationships.

This pattern is also very utilitarian in providing Maj7 scale notes right there with the 6th chord voicing, affording us the 6th chord as an additional Maj7 voicing along with it's Maj7 scale notes.

Ionian notes around the Mixolydian box.
   Ionian scale NOTE numbers.
            [Mixolydian]          F Ionian notes.
    [      Ionian      ]          Tablature.
   --2---x---3---4-----           -6-5-----------------------------3-5-6--
   ------x---1---x---2-           -7-5-7-5-----------------------5--------
   --5---x---6---x---7-           -----7-5-7-5-3-------------5-7----------
   --4---x---5---x---6-           ---------------3-------3-5-------3-5-7--
   --2---x---3---4-----           ---------------3-5-3-5-3-5-----5--------
   ------7---1---x---2-           ---------7-5-4---5-4-5-----5-7----------

In the same way that Ionian and Mixolydian sub for each other in I,IV,V relationships, ...Aolean and Dorian do the same thing. So it's good to know that the "scale" pattern shown here will work for them too. I Aolean = IV Dorian; So if you're playing I Dorian, then this I Aolean pattern will get you IV Dorian. In the same manner, if you're using this pattern for I Dorian, than shifting back into the boxes will get you to IV and V Dorian.

Being able to overlay Aolean scale notes over the Dorian signature chord also gives a different voicing for Aeolean since the Dorian voicing is all but the b6 voicing of Aeolean. In other words you get Aolean scale over a different chord voicing of Aolean than in the Aeolean box. The Aeolean box ain't real fat on an Aeolean chord voicing!

(As a matter of fact, EVERY minor mode except Locrian is a min7, ... so the Dorian box signature CHORD will "substitute" as a chord for all minor modes but Locrian, when higher extension qualities or not necessary)

Aolean notes around the Dorian box.
   Aolean scale NOTE numbers.
             [ Dorian ]           D Aolean notes.
     [     Aolean     ]           Tablature.
   --4---x---5---6-----           -6-5-----------------------------3-5-6--
   ------x---3---x---4-           -7-5-7-5-----------------------5--------
   --7---x---1---x---2-           -----7-5-7-5-3-------------5-7----------
   --6---x---7---x---1-           ---------------3-------3-5-------3-5-7--
   --4---x---5---6-----           ---------------3-5-3-5-3-5-----5--------
   ------2---3---x---4-           ---------7-5-4---5-4-5-----5-7----------

The pattern overlaying "I"Phrygian provides "I"Aeolean which is V Phrygian. You will find similar sub realationships with this pattern for every mode in a box.

Beyond the above demonstration, the deeper utitlity of this scale notes pattern laid over a box can only be understood by studying how it works for each mode. Have fun.

Aloha,
DT~

cr2003wdt

               Brief familiarization exercises in the Maj7 box.
               ------------------------------------------------
                     Player level 2-3 of 5 being highest.
                Requires ability to read simple tablature, and;
              basic abilities using dynamic bar slants and twists,
             and good muting-stop/blocking technique is called for.

Here are a couple of tricks on the upper and lower end of the Maj7 box scale. Don't overlook the really cool and nice stuff that is in the Maj7 box patterns. Using the 6th (7/9/11) box and the Maj7 box together provides an arsenal of exploration and potential.

CMaj7 scale.

                                                               CHIME
]----7===8---7---5-----------------------------------------------0(12)
]------------7---5---7---5---------------------------------------0(12)
]----7===7-----------7---5---7---5-------------------------------0(12)
]------------------------------------4===5-----------5========---0(12)
]----------------------------------------------------------------0(12)
]----------------------------7---5---5===4-------4>5==-5>4====---0(12)
4/4  4   1   2   3   4   1   2   3   4   1   2   3   4   1   2   3

Here is a similar use of the Maj7 scale notes. Good muting-stop technique will sort out the bar slides and sustains.

]--------8---------------------------------------------------------
]--------------7====-----------------------------------------------
]----7=8==-8=7======-7=5====-------------5-------------------------
]----------------7==-----5==-4======-4>5====-5======-----5=========
]------------------------------------------------------------------
]--------------------7=5====-5======-5======-4======-4>5==-5>4=====
4/4  3   4   1   2   3   4   1   2   3   4   1   2   3   4   1   

Aloha,
DT~

cr2003wdt

   9 measures of more licks working between the Maj7 and 6th/9/11 boxes.
   ---------------------------------------------------------------------
  Ability level 1-2.  Requires reading tab and good steel-bar, single note
 and hand muting techniques. Exercises like this help develop those skills.

Key of C.

                                  [C]    slant
]------------------------------------------8-----------------------
]--------------------------2-----------------------9-------7-------
]------------------3---2-----------5======(7)----------------------
]------------------------------5==========(7)----------------------
]----------3---3---------------------------------------------------
]------------------------------------------------------------------
4/4        2       3       4       1       2       3       4       
 
 
  [G]                             [C]
-------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------5=6---5-------------------7======(5)==============
7==5-------------5=6---5-------5===7-------7---7===5-------5----5==
-------5-------5---------------------------------------5-------5---
-----------5-------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------5===7-----------7===5===============
   1       2       3       4       1       2       3       4       
 
 
 
-----------12------12======10-------------------------------------
==(7)------------------------------12======7-------7======(7)=====
===7---------------------------------------7-------7======(7)=====
-----------12------12======10-------------------------------------
-----------------------------------12======--------7======(7)=====
==(7)-------------------------------------------------------------
   1       2       3       4       1       2       3       4      
 
 
   [G]                             [C]
-------------------12------10--------------------------------------
===17------------------------------12------9-----9=7---------------
===17--------------------------------------------------7===5=======
-------------------12------10-----------------9===(7)---------5====
===17------------------------------12----------------------------5=
-------------------------------------------------------------------
   1       2       3       4       1       2       3       4       
 
 
         [G]    [C]
---------------------------------[
---------------------------------[
===------------------------------[
==-5-----------------------------[
===------------------------------[
----------2======4===============[
   1      2      3       4

Other songs on this pedal Steel CD that lend well to learning to play in and out of the boxes and finding adaptions to non-pedal steel are "Steel Guitar Rag", "3 Days", "Last Date", "A Way to Survive", "Sleepwalk", and "Honkey Tonk" (also a good rythm track to woodshed boogie swing).
Some of the licks in the exercises I've posted most recently lend well to adapting non-pedal steel to "pedal"-like licks we hear. After all, the pedal steel was invented to extend the voicings of those licks that had already been discovered and used on non-pedal Steel.

Aloha,
DT~

Special THANKS to Robt. Rapp for sending me this CD;  And to Don Curtis
for sending me the very nice personal note, and for giving all of us the
very nice Steel work on the CD.

Being able to put things into practical use and knowing what box(es) it's related to goes a LONG way in reward / satisfying being able to see those connections. I have got to the point that no matter what I'm playing my brains sees the modal templates sitting on the neck ... affording "instant" ability to know where I'm at, and where to slip into for SOME voicing accurate to a chord or scale or substitution, or placing known licks, or woodshedding new placement contexts of known licks, and finding new licks / voicings etc.

I think now would also be a good time for you to post some tabs of the more advanced theory applications you've given us; Me eyes, fangers and ears are itching! Anyone who has hung in here this long should by now be able to understand and appreciate patterns sprouting up and down the neck from the boxes in the more advanced contexts you've given us.

I think you're right that an "appendix" of applications and licks would be important to both knowledge and motivation in a publication.

Regarding my more recent expounding upon the Maj7 and Dom7 boxes: As you recall, your and my first communications here and in private were about how much is afforded by working those boxes together in both movement between them with fluid slants and in subbing them for each other. I can now say without hesitation that the vast majority of both non-pedal and pedal Steel music since the 6th tuning became popular 60-some-odd years ago, has indeed worked between the Dom7 and Maj7 boxes as "Homebase" positions whether the Artists realized the deeper music theory connections or not. And of course we can certainly hear the Steelers that DID make the theory connections in the 6th tuning and made giant leaps beyond simply playing the boxes as positions; Not to take away from the phoenominal and quite technical work that some guys like Sol did which inspired the likes of Jerry Byrd and just about every other one of us Neck junkies!

--------------------

On a similar "note":

George Piburn (George Boards Steel Guitars) captured some cool ditty stuff from some non-pedal Steel Masters testing his Steels at the Texas Steel Guitar Association Jamboree 2002 (Maurice Anderson, Buzz Evans, Billy Robinson and Chuck Lettes). He has those sound clips on his website.

Here's another pretty cool sound clip of the tone of George's Steels:

I posted some additional info about George's TOP SHELF Steels on the SGF non-pedal bb today.

Aloha,
DT~

[This message was edited by Denny Turner on 21 June 2003 at 07:00 PM.]

Aloha,
DT~

[This message was edited by Denny Turner on 07 July 2003 at 05:47 PM.]