Regarding the bar, I sometimes play pedal steel with a traditional bullet bar, and sometimes with a lighter grooved Dobro type bar (for blues and rock). The Dobro bar always sounds a little different to me, no matter how hard I press down. The mass of the bar, apart from my bar pressure, seems to have an effect.

Bob Hofner’s comments are very interesting. Is it generally the opinion of top pros that there should be almost no pressure on the bar, and that the bar is simply slid around with its own weight being the only pressure? It would seem to be hard for me to eliminate string rattle that way.

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 19 November 2006 at 08:01 PM.]

Jim - I think we all agree that the guitar is part of the tone equation. But a big part of the final "tone" is a result of listening to what is produced and using feedback - from our ears, through our brain, and to our hands - to modify it to our liking. Like you, I'm a 6-stringer, and I'm very fussy about my guitars. They each have their own "nominal" signature tonality. But the way I fret, bend, make vibrato, and the precise picking variables have a huge impact on tone. With the steel guitar, there's all of this plus the effect of the bar, which is, by itself, a vibrating solid structure. Different approaches can set up very different boundary conditions at that end of the string. I think these all can have a huge effect on "tone". I don't think it's just "style".

I think about it like this. Once you pick a guitar, it has a certain "nominal" tonality. One strums lightly across the strings, and there's a signature tone. So, why does each player sound different - often significantly different - even on the same guitar? Reese has listed 24 variables, each of which impact the attack, volume, and harmonic amplitude and phase content of the note(s) played.

Because of those variables. But those are not "tone". Bobbe Seymour tried to explain the same thing in a thread a while back. Those are identifiable elements of playing style, but they don't define tone...if they did, a player would have the same "tone" on different instruments, which isn't the case.

[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 19 November 2006 at 08:21 PM.]

There has to be something in the hands, because he even used my picks and my bar.

------------------
Jack Shults
MSA U-12
Evans Amps
Stereo Steel

[This message was edited by Jack Shults on 19 November 2006 at 08:33 PM.]

But what I think Reece is saying, and I agree, is that bar and picking technique can - at least somewhat - change the "tone" or "timbre" of the instrument. By physically attacking the instrument differently, one can control which resonances are accentuated or attenuated. I certainly notice this heavily on 6-stringers. I'm not as experienced on steel, but I find I can do that to some degree there also. I think this is a critical part to my advancing as a steel guitarist.

There are, of course, certain guitars I prefer over others, because of their inherent natural tonality. But this far from negates the fact that the hands also control many aspects of this.

Bar mass certainly effects tone.

I play with a large bar,
a small Red Rajah bar and
a small Black tapered bar,
depending on the speed of the song,
the tone I want
and number of lifts needed too.

The tapered bar certainly aides fast lines
on C6 while adding more weight on the fat strings.

And I certainly use different downward hand preasure
for each bar, and differently for each neck too.
In general as little as possible to get a balance of sustain WITHOUT extra damping caused by too much presure.

The sound test Reece did makes perfect sense
as a total blind test.
I think though the differences would have been more apparent IF,
the listeners had heard a round robin
of the instruments while watching beforehand,
And THEN done the blind test.

I am sure I could set up several steels and optimized amps in combination behind a screen,
and then duplicate the sounds of other steels to a great extent. If not total disapearance of characteristic tones.
You can make a PP sound more like a AP with strong EQ.
And to some extent vica versa.
But more so in the right hands.

We have similar comparisions this at Audio Engineering Conventions,
with a similar result.
People can differentiate between tambors that
they can place to a speaker or instrument;
better if they have actually mentally placed the tone with it prior to blind listening.

If not then it is a crap shoot in most cases.
Though some speakers DO have a characteristic sound, even in the super high end studio market.
But placing those speakers in a different room they will sound much like another in it's idealized room.

I like Jim Cohen's comments about not liking steels untill his technique modified to fit the new steel.

I also note I was the only one to pick out
which tune was the only one done with a PP
on one of his albums.
He told me while others were still guessing.
To me it was clear, but I also thought that his technique was purposely accentuating the PP sound,
when compared to his other songs.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 20 November 2006 at 05:35 AM.]

Then Jim, wouldn't the converse be true; If that be the case then any amateur player playing the instrument Buddy Emmons or any professional was playing, he/she would have the same tone as the Professional. I don't think so.

Phrend Phred

------------------
"From Truth, Justice is Born"--Quanah Parker-1904

There are two things that I would like to touch upon with this subject. One was sort of brushed on by Dave Mudgett about mass and density of the metal that the strings are in contact with.

The other is tuning length and string gauge. These two factors without a doubt change the tone of a guitar.

I sort of learned early in my musical career that if I was going to make enough money to support a family and purchase a home, a full time musical career was not the way to go. So, I went to welding school and became a welder then a business owner of a welding company. Throughout my career I learned a great deal about steel and its structure.

In short, high tensile carbon steel has small amounts of nickel, carbon, manganese and so on. Each of these different combined metals make the steel harder or softer. You all know how lead crystal sustains its vibrations when tweeked with your finger; well, high tensile carbon steel will do the same thing if you tap it with another piece of metal. It just rings on and on and on. If you were to cut a twelve inch pancake circle out of high tensile steel, (for the steelers in here who know this stuff, SA 516 Gr70) hold it in your hand and tap it with a hammer it rings like a bell; however, if you hang that same piece of steel off a piece of wire and tap it again, the sustained ringing lasts almost 70% longer.

For this reason, on the higher quality guitars, most bridges and nuts and tuners are made out of high tensile carbon steel. Those steel guitars that do not use high tensile steel for the nuts, bridges and tuners will most definitely not get the same tone or sustain.

To the point above, hanging a the high tensile steel circle on a piece of wire extends the ringing: I have often wondered what would happen if somehow the bar area that touches the strings was isolated or insulated from the players hand, what would it do for the sound of the strings.

High tensile carbon steel strings???? Nope, it couldn’t work!

------------------
(I am not right all of the time but I sure like to think I am!)

One good way to look at it is how cello players hold the bow. Relaxed and controlled.

------------------
Bob
upcoming gigs
My Website

quote:

---

4. Angle of attack on the finger picks when entering the strings.

---

Try to get as much of the fat part of the pick on the string as you can.

quote:

---

6. Distance thumb is moved away from the fingers.

---

Stick your thumb out as far as you can to get power from the flat part of the thumb pick rather than the edge.

quote:

---

9. Amount of �pull� pressure exerted on the finger picks.

10. Amount of �push� pressure exerted on the thumb pick.

---

Pick hard so you can feel the strings jump from behind the bar as you play.

None of these things should be thought of as rules. These are just things that Buddy told me to help me to understand how to get a better sound.

------------------
Bob
upcoming gigs
My Website

10. Amount of “push” pressure exerted on the thumb pick.
------------------------------------------
I would like to add the balance between these forces (same force with all fingers, different force on different fingers and thumb).
Another one is timing.

------------------
Steelin' Greetings
Marco Schouten
Sho-Bud Baldwin Crossover converted to SD-10, Evans SE200

Since my stated intention was clear, and I created this thread in the sincere hope and belief that sharing my thoughts, asking for others thoughts and focusing together on a specific premise which has the potential to be both insightful and helpful, I have a responsibility to those who have expressed interest and others who might be interested, to remain on target and topic and not create the risk of diluting my original intentions of focused sharing.

I appreciate the input from everyone, but admittedly I hope others will participate by adding to my list of elements, and discussing the implications and parameters of different elements.

I certainly don't pretend to have all the answers, in fact, I have more questions than answers. The truth is, the more I learn, the more I realize I don't know. I however remain convinced that by collectively staying focused we can all learn something together.

There are far more lurkers than there are participants on this forum, and I consider each non-participant as an untapped sourse of valuable input which could help all of us in our search to be the best we can be and enjoy the never ending journey of learning. I have gained many positive and marvelous insights over the years from those who had little or no experience.

Tommy Y....You are an open minded, honest and perfect example of my original intentions. I would greatly appreciate your continued thoughts and input as would many I'm sure.

Another interesting element is
bar vs picking hand placement along the strings at different registers, within the same music.

The picking position that gets a nice tone when on fret 3,
might be NOT be the same distance from the changer
as the optimum reciprical tone when playing at fret 10.
If you get a slightly closer to the changer tone for fret 3
the better tone to balance over all, might be farther from the changer at fret 10.

Harmonic resonance points are relative to total string length.
and bar and pick placement can effect that tone.

Thus you might want a slightly higher tonal set of harmonics at fret 3
(closer to the changer)
and move more to the middle of the
string bar to changer distance
for the higher frets,
( slightly farther from the changer)
to create lower register harmonic sets
from the shorter length.

I saw John Hughey play with the Time Jumpers,
and when he was way up the neck ,
I noticed a slight leftward movement of right hand.
I assumed that made his super high notes fatter.

"Harmonic resonance points are relative to total string length."

Over the years I have adopted a rule for myself: Don't take advice from someone who can't do what it is you want to do, and always take advice from those who can!

I can't imagine how anyone could disagree with what Maurice has offered to share. He has attained a level of playing that is beyond what most could ever hope for. If he told me to wear my picks backwards I'd give it a try.

[This message was edited by Randy Beavers on 20 November 2006 at 06:33 AM.]

Guys, please read whatI DID say and not the words Reece put in my mouth. I agree completely with everything except one detail - the word "tone". It's something that is certainly open to interpretation - many of use think an instrument has an inherent, defining "tone" and that a player's "influence" on that isa manipulation...a style...but it can't change the inherent tone of the instrument.

It has a HUGE affect on the overall sound you hear, but the instrument will still sound like what it is.

If you can't hear the diffferences between instruments, I can't help you and that point becomes irrelevant - to *you*.

But please, guys - quit the made-up interpretations and try reading what someone says before you try to argue with it. You're arguing with something Reece made up.

What I **DID** say:

"I don't disagree with your list of factors..."

I agree with the list of influences on sound, and he makes very valid points.

But -

"I further believe, depending on the player, any specific instrument has the distinct possibility of becoming unidentifiable relative to the inherent basic tone fundamentals/characteristics, which can be attributed only to the hands."

I fundamentally disagree with this one, and I'll back it up 40 years' playing and tech experience on many different types of instruments. Steel's not unique - and I'm not alonin the basic premise that you *can't* make every instrument unidentifiable. SOME you can - those with a very generic, middle-of-the-road tone. But if you can take Herb Steiner's wraparound and make it sound like a Red Baron using your hands alone, I'll eat my Fender 1000.

[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 20 November 2006 at 07:13 AM.]

For the most part Reece has pretty much nailed it, lets all get over it.

BTW, I think Jerry Garcia had great tone!

Just my 2¢

------------------
John Drury
NTSGA #3

------------------
Fred Justice,
Justice Custom Cases & Cabinets,
Fred's Music, www.fredjusticemusic.com

Another question is, "does a larger diameter bar provide a better tone because it possibly has the potential of enhanced bar control relative to bar vibrato due to being "top heavy" when compared to a small diameter bar?

Marco S....Great thought. I would have to believe the finger pick and thumb pick pressures could vary due to mass of the picks, direction of force, pick materials and distance between the fingers and thumb.

David D....You raise a great point relative to picking hand placement. I have always felt I had consistent control of my "feel" by having my thumb to the left of the 24th fret and my fingers to the right of the 24th fret. (in my own mind anyway) It is my belief maintaining seperation of about an inch and a half between my index finger pick and my thumb pick possibly comprimises the difference in pick materials, and the dynamics of pulling with my fingers vs. pushing with my thumb.

I have always searched for consistency, and if one will try placing their picks in the strings and sliding their hand to the right or the left while maintaining the same finger and thumb configurations, (its becomes more evident moving to the left because you can move it far enough to encounter the force I'm eluding too) they will encounter resistance, which for me equates to disorientation of my fingers and encourages mistakes while playing were I to change my pick location.

Jim S....I admire your demeanor, appreciate your understanding, and encourage your continued participation.

Given:

1. Tone is inherent in all guitars and all guitars exhibit a unique tone.

2. Anything you add at the output of your guitar (amp, effects, cables, volume pedal) can influence your basic guitar's tone.

3. Playing style (technique/touch) influences tone and is unique to each player.

Conclusion:

1. A guitar's tone is pretty much fixed except for string changes or pick-up changes.

2. Be cognizant of amp settings and effects and their influence on tone.

3. Tone can actually improve with practice as your technique (touch) improves.

Tone can vary from one song to the next. You're technique (touch/tone) on a ballad can and should be different than an up-tempo song.

Many of us buy different guitars searching for that elusive tone instead of practicing on technique more and thereby bring out the best tone your current guitar has. It would amaze some of you to have a pro guitarist play your instrument. You wouldn't recognize the tone.

As a great steel guitarist, Forrest Gump once said about tone and steel guitars (they edited it from the movie):

"that's all I have to say about that"

I seen to remember John saying they sounded the same.

------------------
Bob
upcoming gigs
My Website

Lets get back on subject... if we can.

Jim 2 things
Since you are parsing my words...
Total string length will have an effect.
Above the rollers too.

On the guitar,
ff you can get sound from above the nut
and below the bridge before the tail piece,
then that area IS moving inversely to the main body of the string
and has damping factors to the main body of the string.

On my Bud, I have effected the action of strings
by muting above the rollers on open strings.

Part of Reece's essay was on
left of bar hand techniques
to affect the area of string above the bar, to the nut.
basically ignoring above the rollers..

But my paragraphs ABOVE the phrase you quoted
Should have made the context clear,
it is the total length of string
from BAR fretting to changer I was speaking of.
Have been discussing just that,
I didn't think I needed to be pedantically redundant,
to be clear...

The point, to be returned to is :
when playing up the neck, the strings are shorter,
the harmonics are closer together,
and closer to the changer or bridge.

Also the harmonic content generated
WILL change if you don't move your hand,
but shorten the picked string length.

If you don't move your hand, the harmonic points will shift UNDER it.
You can use this factor to advantage I believe
If you can move your hand appropriately
and get a warmer tone,
as the shorter BARRED length goes more shrill,
then this might well balance getting

a brighter tone by picking over higher harmonics
closer to the changer for bar placement of lower notes.
which have longer string length... to bar.

I do this on bass regularly.
Sometimes every time I switch a string
I pluck in a different place on the string.
To blend the tones better,
especially in less accurate smaller amps.
I do this on Memphis, played on just strings A and D, most every night.

I also did the same when playing C6 last Friday night.

When I went into lower notes, I went closer to the changer.
Higher notes I picked more up the neck.
I thought it was quite useful technique.

I suspect some pro's do this almost subconciously,
albeit minutely, as part of their great techniques.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 20 November 2006 at 11:26 AM.]

Back to the point Maurice is trying to make.

It is my experience that most players after playing a guitar for an extended period of time sound better, no matter what guitar it is. This is an indication to me that a varying tone spectrum emerges as the hands adjust and search for the desired tone.