quote:

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Different? Sure, but still they sound like a steel guitar. Get over the equipment issue. That will never improve your technique.

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Let's see...where have I heard that before?

Randy, I appreciate you saying that. Sadly though, it seems a lot of players will never get over the "equipment issue". They keep thinking some magic will spring from a certain guitar, and their playing will really improve.

I just reread you Right & Left hand list of what ifs !
The only thing I didn't see there was ! Bar surface
density . Years ago ! When the Bakelite bars first come out !
& Without changing approach
There was a big difference in tone between bars on my old Rick !
maybe its the density of the surface of the bar ! That will add / subtract
the tone . I have used That plastic bar the bobbie sent with
the BoBro unit and it gives a different tone on the StringMaster .

Bar Material could be another item on your what ifs !

As I stated earlier, the more I learn the more I realize I don't know, which is why I have posed so many question within this thread.

May I also say how much I appreciate your very kind words about me. Being remembered favorably after these many years, is a very meaningful comment to me.

May I ask the question concerning your comment.....are you implying that after you obtain what you consider to be your perfect guitar configuration and you sit down to play it for the first time, that you accept the sound as being is as good as it's going to get, or do you believe it will improve as you become used to playing it?

I have always found a guitar sounds better after I become used to playing it and could never envision the difference in sound "across the board" as being attriubuted to anything other than the hands adjusting to the sound I want to hear?

Bob H....You're right, I failed to address bar surface alloy, thank you for mentioning it. I do however believe most players use a bar which is a solid alloy.

"Then Jim, wouldn't the converse be true; If that be the case then any amateur player playing the instrument Buddy Emmons or any professional was playing, he/she would have the same tone as the Professional. I don't think so."

Yes, it would be true, at least as far as the inherent tone goes. Please note the difference between the tone of the instrumment and the "sound" generated by the hands - pressure, speed, attack as Reece says all affect the sound...but in Fred's example, even a non-player can pick a note on a Push-Pull and it will have THAT guitar's tone.

David Donald - OK, I see what you mean. IMO "total string length" will affect sustain and overtones to such a minor degree...assuming the basic platform is stable...as to be a non-factor. And the harmonics don't move if the nut/bridge doesn't. Not that there isn't some effect...but very little, unless, as I mentioned, it's a "loose" platform. If you're getting that much difference in sound when you manipulate the strings behind the nut or changer of your Shobud, I'd be looking for ways of stabilizing it.

Reece, as far as putting words in my mouth, I only said what I said..not what you seemed to think. But we're moving ahead with the discussion and let's have it not be an issue.

"I don't think some players have the hearing ability to distinguish it."

Kevin nailed it.

The comment "they all sound like steel guitars to me" shows either how unimportant really good tone is or simply reinforces what Kevin said. If "they all sound like steel guitars" is the guiding factor, then tone has become irrelevant. Which it has not, of course.

I (and Kevin) maintain the the basic platform will have a specific tone. Some better than others (always a matter of opinion), some close to each other, some dramaticlally different. But you can't, no matter HOW good you are, manipulate two guitars with dramatically different tone into sounding identical. But, as Kevin so perfectlynoted, some can't hear it. I think, furthermore, that some don't care. They play a guitar based on the mechanics, or their favorite player, or because it's black...but rarely do you see a steel player mention that he bought a certain guitar because of its tone.

You DO see quite a few trying to "chase tone" via pickups and sometimes strings later...but tone rarely seems to be an issue discussed when players are looking for a new axe.

BTW, I'm not going back to look but I seem to recall someone posting "tambor" and I was totally baffled what he meant...until I realized he must have meant "timbre". Not a criticism, just a clarification in case anyone else read that word and wasn't sure what it meant. I hope I interpreted that correctly...

[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 20 November 2006 at 05:20 PM.]

We can do one of BE's licks, but we'll never sound like the Big E. Problem solved.

Reece, you da man!

Edited to say, this is what many musicians refer to as "having the touch". Some have it, alot of us don't. There are different degrees of accomplishment; none bad, some just sound better. I hope I live long enough to develop the technique and touch.

[This message was edited by Tim Bridges on 20 November 2006 at 05:26 PM.]

The brand of guitar does not generally determine the musical content. The player does. I believe that's the forest here. The brand of instrument is the trees, if you know what I mean.

I have met many weak players who hide behind a concept (bordering on worship) of "TONE "(which often involves chasing down vintage instruments and amps and obsessing over minute details like cap values, did Lloyd Loar sign it, etc.) when they have weak musicianship (time/rhythmic concept and feel; TOUCH as in 'it's in the hands''; articulation and improvisational concept) that they refuse to address. I've found this to be true among classical musicians and all kinds of electric and acoustic players. It's a lot easier to chase after equipment (and if you have it, throw money at the problem) than to develop "talent" and do the hard work required to maximize it. Eavesdrop on any conversation in a guitar store...

A skilled musician ( as opposed to an instrument operator) is going to get the instrument to sound the best it can sound, and the best he (or she) can sound...whether playing an optimum fine tuned setup or a middle of the road rig.

I will concede that if you want to play strictly vintage music, the right vintage instruments/amps are going to give you a better chance for an 'authentic' sound. If you need a Fender sound, Gibson isn't going to provide it, etc. But if you don't know how to get tone and sound with your hands, and play the content appropriate for the setting, you might as well be playing anything -although it might not LOOK as cool.

PS- I'm an infant on steel guitar, but can play 20 different brands of mandolin and sound exactly like myself, for better or worse. I've swapped instruments with David Grisman, Sam Bush, Andy Statman etc. and sounded just like me on them- no matter how I tried to sound like them! It's In The Hands in the end.

Apologies to Randy and Donny for rehashing their thoughts!
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http://www.johnmcgann.com
Info for musicians, transcribers, technique tips and fun stuff. Joaquin Murphey transcription book, Rhythm Tuneup DVD and more...

[This message was edited by John McGann on 20 November 2006 at 06:42 PM.]

Jim, if you're going to quote me, have the courtesy to include what was before and after the statement if it made the point. At least include the whole sentence. I know what you meant was entirely different from the part I extracted.

By the way, do you not think any of those instruments I named sound like a steel guitar? I did not say all steel guitars sound the same. But I guess you can extract what you want.

I just tried playing with my picks on backwards and I still suck!

I think we are confusing tone and talent. I've heard some average players have a nice sound and some great players with a limited sound. But great players always get my attention!

I wonder why Buddy gave Bruce the regular Zumsteel back and took the Hybrid? Sound or playability?

Russ

[This message was edited by Russ Tkac on 20 November 2006 at 06:56 PM.]

"Well guys... from a Silvertone to a Ric and on to the most modern pedal guitar, they all sound like a steel guitar to me! Different? Sure, but still they sound like a steel guitar."

That implies that you don't see a lot of difference, and that the tone of the equipment isn't very important...or that you can't hear it.

Don't you think there MIGHT be players who are looking for a particular tone? That might NOT be satisfied with the tone of the instrument they have - or have heard something and said - THAT's the tone I'm looking for. Not the "hands" - but the inherent tone of the instrument.

I agree with a lot of what John McGann said - I've watched far too many player "chase tone" with ridiculous amounts of money, when what they needed to do was practice. But I also think there's a balance - in the hands of a good player, a collection of vintage and/or several modern high-quality instruments can allow the player a much wider range of sounds for different purposes, live and in the studio. I probably have 25 or 30 amps - and every single one has been used live or in the studio for a particular purpose, whether for a whole gig or a single song. Same with instruments - I had half a dozen Teles, and every one had a different inherent tone AND feel.

You guys are swamping the thread originator's intentions, and it's Off Topic.
Regardless if there is some periferal relevance.
Please start your own thread for this....

I can, by using different techniques,
get different sounds from my old Bud.

Yes it mostly sounds like a Bud,
BUT not all Bud's always sound the same
in different hands.

The disccusion as I see it is,
How can you get the greatest variety
and control of sounds
from the instrument you are playing
by analysis of your hand techniques.

Nothing more nothing else.

Everything your instrument put's into the over all sounds
is AFTER your technique,

You and the strings.

I have spent many decades as a recording engineer,
listening intently to individual instruments,
and in groups, trying to analyize the recorded tones,
and the amp / room / mic characteristics needed to
create the final tonal soundscape.

And then the balance of tonal registers needed to fit in a mix to best advantage.

Tonal registers is part of Components of Sound.

I know how much I can tweak
amps, eq, effects, and mic choices and positionings
to get a wide variety of sounds from the pickers hands.

I also now from 45 years of recording
how many great pickers can sound better
on my own instruments. (a lot)
With my stock settings,
and the ONLY difference being
Their Hand Technique.

Talk about the amps, and steels inherant tone,
all you want, in another thread please...

But ignore Reece's actual topic here
at your own peril... Only YOU lose.

Randy B, D. Dog, Jim C. John McG. all great input.
Yeah Johnny Cox is a magician.
I would love to hear his input about 'hands' here too.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 20 November 2006 at 10:05 PM.]

I welcome different opinions

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Steelin' Greetings
Marco Schouten
Sho-Bud Baldwin Crossover converted to SD-10, Evans SE200

quote:

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What makes each of us unique in the sound we get, and why is it when we play someone else’s guitar it sounds different than when they play it?

---

Reese,
I usually play without picks, and that has alot to do with the sound I get. I can block much cleaner this way, and four note grips are a breeze compared to when I use picks. I can also play with picks, but choose not to since I like the technique that I've developed without picks. I have no problem playing fast without picks either, and I like the "tone " I get with my nails and fingertips. I do not advocate my method but simply say that this is what I have found works best for me.

Unfortunately, the common path of many threads is usually that of a rapid downward spiral which results in a lock down for reasons which are apparent and all too common....I personally consider that scenario to be very unfortunate and not in the best interest of the steel guitar community.

Leonard B....I'm anticipating your response to my question posed in one of my earlier posts.

Mike S....Playing without picks, although out of the ordinary, is what I believe to be a very viable approach.

I now have a student who is also a guitar player and he prefers to use a flat pick and his middle and ring finger. I certainly didn't discourage him, because it has never been my intention to stiffle natural tendencies.

Which sadly has so often been lost to
"semantic openings".

If some believe that tone is primarily
in the instrument and the amp/ settings,
then respectfully they should allow those with
another view on the generation of good tone,
to plumb their own path without being diverted to
anothers preferential view.

Be it 'most' or 'many',
that doesn't open the door for a change of topic
from technique to equipment choices IMHO.

Before you can bother with a great amp and steel,
you still have to pick,
and at a certain point true finese of
picking and barring, needs to be adressed.

If someone of Reece's calibre and accomplishment
wants to discuss technique directly,
I for one want to hear that,
and the comments of others
germain to this topic. Not tangents...

I have posed some thoughts,
and seen them swamped by instrument discussions.

I will note that the best comments here
in my opinion are from players I have seen live,
and find to be in the top echalon.
The topic changers, respectfully, are relative unkowns to me,
maybe fine players, maybe not.
I place myself am in the later catagory.

John Hughey's picks extend pretty far out from the fingers, and he gets tone to die for. I tried it, and it didn't work for me- I prefer to have the picks wrap around the fingertip a bit, and also have them bent to a slight angle, so when I attack the string, the idea is that the pick is sliding through the string, coaxing the sound rather than slapping it. I use the same idea with a flatpick on guitar and mandolin, trying to "draw" the sound out. I feel the attack is "warmer" this way.

I am using .025 picks as I like the overall tone better- and I feel that I get the instrument to resonate more with a heavier pick. This leads me to think that the tone chain truly begins before the pickup-and I sometimes practice unplugged to try and get a good basic sound, and work on fundamentals.

------------------
http://www.johnmcgann.com
Info for musicians, transcribers, technique tips and fun stuff. Joaquin Murphey transcription book, Rhythm Tuneup DVD and more...

[This message was edited by John McGann on 21 November 2006 at 06:05 AM.]

Hearing an instrument much like many used in recordings in the 70's, it caused me to play things like I had heard. Not well, but the sound was there, and the sound is what causes me to play a certain way, be it pedal steel or keyboard (the difference in a big grand or a Rhodes).

Of course, one has to accept that body/mind is/are one, and thus the direct connection to the hands as an extension of mind.

No, actually some of are responding directly to a statement made in the opening post regarding what most players think is the primary source of tone. If you make that statement, comments/replies are on topic and part of the discussion, even if some folks don't want it to be.

And the tread hasn't been hijacked into an amp/guitar thread. It's primarily focused on what effect the hands have on sound. Yes, I didn't use the word "tone" in that last sentenc, and you can call it semantics if you wish - but telling people to stay off te thread because the definition of tone is not relevant is ludicrous.

The question I directed to you can be found on page 2, 2 post's up from the bottom. I appreciate your intentions of a response.

John Mc....Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

I place my picks tightly on the end of my fingers. This provides me the same perception as when fishing with a flexible fishing rod, in that I believe I can better "feel" the string response.

If I wear my picks deep, it's like fishing with a stiff pole and not being able to feel the "subtleties of the "bite" because the response is too stiff. (I have the same mindset for my thumb pick as well)

Secondly, I believe the angle of the picks as they enter the strings works best for me when they are going straight down into the strings. This can be examined by looking at the right hand while in the playing position and configuration.

Again, my perception is, I'm initiating the maximum response from the string, and, it's also easier for me to feel consistent pulling pressures.

I believed my original intentions were clear, but I'm certainly capable of making an error of judgement, and if you feel I have done so, then you have both my regret and my personal apology.

20% tone.....guitar~amps
and you can take that to the bank...........

exampale.
I posted JD playing on you~Tube...some one wrote in the post
that Push~Pull tone of JD's....just can't miss it....well...he was playing a EMCI...all pull!

Think about it!!!!!!

Jim S..... the thread is now back on tone......

My question was:"Concerning your recent observation, may I respectfully ask if in your opinion each guitar could have been played while your back was turned and you could have distinguished one from the other when different players were playing them"?

Your reponse was: "Yes I could definently tell the difference of the sounds of the different steels with my back turned".

You eluded earlier that only your uncle was strumming all the guitars.

If 80% of tone is in the hands, we should be able to mike a steel guitar instead of using a pickup and get most of what we would normally hear. You and I both know that it don't work that way.

If 80% of tone is in the hands, why do you carry around two big Peavey amps and an effects rack instead of whatever's handy?

Most of my tone comes from the pickups, the tubes and the speakers I use. I'd say 80%. Maybe 20% comes from the hands. Yes, tone starts in the hands but, for an electric steel guitarist, the largest components of tone are the electronic instruments used.

That's my opinion.

------------------
Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog

quote:

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"Concerning your recent observation, may I respectfully ask if in your opinion each guitar could have been played while your back was turned and you could have distinguished one from the other when different players were playing them"?

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Excellent point Reece! When I bought my last guitar, I made my selection by listening to the same player, who played several different steels with all settings equal while my back was turned. In that example, I actually made my selection based on the "differences" that I heard.

But Jim Sliff says...

quote:

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...even a non-player can pick a note on a Push-Pull and it will have THAT guitar's tone.

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As Reece has alluded, not always. At a show a few years ago, Curry Coster (a great local player) and I were listening to other steelers. One steeler was playing the exalted Emmons push/pull, and the tone (sound, timbre, whatever you choose to call it) was decidedly not what one would think of as a push/pull. The very next player on the show was playing a Mullen, an older one, and his tone was indeed very Emmons "push/pullish". I remarked to Curry (who plays and owns only push/pulls) that the Mullen actually sounded far more like a push/pull than the previous player's push/pull did...and he agreed!

I think that's good evidence that there's often (but not always) something else going on to create the sounds we hear. An Emmons push/pull doesn't always sound like an Emmons push/pull, nor does a Fender Tele always sound like a Fender Tele. There's often much more to the sound that you hear than just what particular brand or model guitar a player chooses to use.

And Jim, with all due respect, and whether or not you realize it, your "debating" Reece about steel guitar sound and tone has about as much validity as me debating Eric Clapton about straight guitar sound and tone.

[This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 21 November 2006 at 09:28 AM.]

Or... take brother Gene Jones's example, after listening to someone else play several guitars, who is sitting down to the them for the first time and has had no time at all to adapt to them. I'm not sure that, after the 'accomodation' period, the sound I would get out of the guitar would necessarily sound like what he got out of it on Day 1, without any accomodation time. Or, for that matter, even if we both had had the time to accomodate to it, I'm not sure we'd end up in the same place. In fact, I rather doubt it. How then to choose a guitar? Tis a puzzlement!

p.s. Disclaimer: for those who are only following this thread with one eye open, I am not the "Jim" being widely quoted and debated above.

[This message was edited by Jim Cohen on 21 November 2006 at 09:27 AM.]