quote:

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Once a string is plucked, the musicians I work with and admire, NEVER stop manipulating the string for tonal purposes.

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Thank you, Paul - that is what I was trying to say, but my engineering background got in the way of communicating in plain English. That is what I refer to when I contrast a "driven" oscillatory system from a "free" one.

I want to learn how I might get different sounds out of my guitar from my right and left hands. Can you help me? There have been about four posts that gave actual advise on how to achieve this. Thank you.

Last night I tried some things. I get different sounds mostly from where I pick on the neck and how hard. I can't seem to get any other changes form the other things mentioned. I tried different pick angles and I don't think I'm doing it right because I only hear a little grittiness added from the edge of the pick on the wound strings. I tried bar pressure and I can't get a change. I tried things behind the bar and nothing worked. I tried bar pressure as in how hard I hold it and there seems to be a bit there.
I guess I'll try the extreme amp setting mentinoed earlier that causes you to make up for an intentional lack of high or low end.

Does anyone have any other suggestions for learning how to get different sounds? I'm being vague about "sounds" because you all know what I'm talking about and we don't need to argue about what to call it.

I don't know everything and I'm proud to say it. It's good to listen and learn.

Steve

[This message was edited by Steve Walz on 22 November 2006 at 10:13 AM.]

quote:

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That one note will have the inherent tone of the instrument.

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I disagree. You cannot determine the inherent tone of an instrument based on one note. If another player plays the same one note (using a different technique), and gets a different sound, the tone had to have changed in some way.

Also, with Bobby's statement...

quote:

---

I can say with confidence that most players will sound at least as bad playing through my rig as I do.

---

I can only conclude this was a tongue-in-cheek remark. Bobby, if you're serious, and you've never heard a really great player playing your own rig, I urge you to do it, should the occasion ever arise.

Many I suspect move their hand slightly closer or farther
from the changer to get GLOBAL sound changes.

But this is equally valid when going from low to high strings.
As well as slight variations relative to bar position.

How many actively move their hand toward the changer
as they bar notes for lower pitches,
or lower strings,

and away from the changer for higher strings or higher pitched bar positions?

Or move their thumb lightly closer to the changer
when playing lower strings?

---------------------------------
Paul F. nice to see you here also.

Someone mentioned that they were getting
something aproximating your tone on record,
in their live playing.

I am curious what percantage of your recordings
do you think get into the ball park for reproducing the tone you are making
when you play, or your prefered live tone.
Rough guess if you please.
(But ignore this i you please also )

Or if you can reccomend a recording that MOST captures
what you are looking for through the recording chain.

-------------------------------------
Tonmeister Degrees really only existed in Germany
until the last few decades.
And then mostly for classical music heads.
The AES Audio Engineering Society took up most of the slack,
but it was much more a technical forum as an artistic one.

Most other countries just trained players, and you talked you way into a studio in the old aprentice way,
and read a few books.

Berklee didn't really even have a recording technique program until the 80's.
Someone there asked me to teach it a few times,
but I had no time nor inclination for that matter.

So most of the 'trained engineers' got their
practical experience in the trenches as it were.
It was only after some long term cross pollination of techical engineering
and classically train composers
working together with the aim of devising
a cross dialog they BOTH could understand,
that the musicallity and engineering
of music reproduction joined forces.

Addthe research efforts of certain universities,
and IRCAM in Paris, where I did some work.
This was more research than training though.

One thing was always clear;

Bad technique could not be over ridden by fantastic engineering.

But good engineering could at least, and AT BEST,
aproximate the original artists performance.

If the artist's had poor hands or a marginal vocal instrument,
No electronic designing or modification of reproduction could make up for that...
Pitch tracking softwere included.

This includes your steel pickup, through to your speaker cab holding a driver.

How you lip fits the mouth piece, stick fits in the hand,
or you hold your pick, and quaver your bar, is crucial to good sound.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 22 November 2006 at 10:50 AM.]

------------------
Bb is where it's at!

------------------
Bb is where it's at!

quote:

---

Berklee didn't really even have a recording technique program until the 80's.

---

Paul, just to clarify, that isn't what I said at all. If you re-read what I think you referring to I was talking about a non-manipulated string.

The short version: when the string is NOT manipulated via bar pressure, vibrato, etc, after it is struck the string maintains a vibration at equilibrium (We can tosss in decaying factor, but that's part of the instrument again under these conditions). Those manupulations, when applied, affect the sound....but the fundamental tone of the instrument is still the same.

Dave - I'm not saying tone begins with the hands. It's there, lying in state, before you strike anything. When you pick a string you activate it - and that picking action does have an affect on the souhnd, but the inherent tone of the instrument is not changed.

If it was, every player would just need to play a guitar they like the looks of with a good mechanical system, because they could manipulate the tone significantly enough to make it sound like whatever they want.

Reece's list is interesting, and valid. Those factors definitely help define a player's style and sound. But the tone of the instrument is what you have to work with, and some are more easily manipulated than others. You CAN'T ignore the inherent tone of the instrument, and that's what invalidates the whole "tone is in the hands" premise (note: Not Reece's tone "begins" with the hands statement). But the "begins" statement is also false IMO, since the instrument has a tone to start with, and that's where it ALL begins. All you hands can do is tweak it.

Metal vs wood; rosewood vs maple; Ginger vs Mary Ann....inherent differences.

"I disagree. You cannot determine the inherent tone of an instrument based on one note. If another player plays the same one note (using a different technique), and gets a different sound, the tone had to have changed in some way."

That's totally false and has been proven scientifically - go buy a book on acoustics and string oscillation.

Once it's in motion the tone is the same *after* the initial strike (as I mentioned earlier, which affects the initial sound...but STILL not the fundamental tone) - whether you're sitting there, me, Paul, or a cow makes no difference. A vibrating, non-manuipulated string on an instrument doesn't change tone based on who's within 2 feet. Try reading what I actually said. Some of the made-up interpretations are downright laughable.

I don't even know what you guys are arguing about - I said I agree generally with Reece's comments about certain factors having an affect - the ONLY difference of opinion is in where it starts. Any decent instrument maker can describe the tone of an instrument they make to you. It doesn't go to zero, only to be usurped by the hands. An instrument has a fundamental tone, period, and THAT's where it starts. The hands manipulate it.

1. vibrato
2. pick attack
3. distance from the bridge (changer), both left and right hands

I didn't say that I can't learn anything because of all of the "discussion" going on here. I said I can't learn much because of the "pissing match" that is going on here.

I see the original topic as a discussion of what you can do with the bar and your hands. I just want to hear about about that. What is so wrong with that? What do you have to offer about how to use the picks and the bar beyond what you have already said? Please give me some examples of what techniques you use for different sounds. But do not lecture me about rereading your posts. It's statements like that that make you sound like a self made know it all which is not a good thing. Read Bobby S.'s new email letter and ask yourself who he is talking about.

I've been pretty consistent in what I've said, and it all relates to the subject at hand.

If your particular techniques are not working after you've read the thread, I would suggest finding a good teacher. By seeing you in action, a good instructor can find things for your to correct or improve that are almost impossible to interpret in writing.

I'm sure Reece & other teachers see's/hears this on nearly a daily basis while teaching. A beginner, using the same equipment, gaining experience with the items on the list and his/her, sound/tone improving all along.

If I could choose between one of the top pro's hands/touch or their equipment, I would choose the hands without question. I know the equipment makes a difference but I see it more of a way to "shape" or "fine tune" the tone coming from the player.

Steve....I've found that being conscience of the items on Reece's list and knowing how each affect the tone will allow you to experiment, as it sounds you have been doing, with your technique. Spending time with your hands on the guitar with these things in mind, will shape "your" personal tone.

This goes deeper than I have the ability to explain, but somehow the mind will control the muscles to attain the sound/tone your wanting to hear. This don't happen overnight! It takes a long time for some like me and not as long for others. Just knowing (programming the mind) that these things on the list will affect tone will take you a long way (in due time) to the sound/tone your looking for.

[This message was edited by Sidney Malone on 22 November 2006 at 04:17 PM.]

------------------
Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog

First off...

Without hands, the instrument (or string, if you care) has no tone. Until someone actually plays it, you can't know anything about it's tone, or it's sound. You may be able to make a crude approximation of it's resonant frequency, if certain data are known; i.e. tension, length, diameter.

But without someone (or something) actually playing, picking, or whatever, there is no sound.

No sound, no tone.

It's a proven scientific fact that if a linear string is plucked at a position that is exactly at the node of a harmonic mode, that node will not be excited, and the missing node will be reflected when the waveform of the note is viewed. In other words, the harmonic structure (the tone) will change, depending on where the string is plucked.

You keep arguing that "once the string is in motion...etc., etc., etc.." We hear you! Alright already!

But...what sets the string in motion?

The player.

BINGO!

And...depending on how the string is set in motion, a characteristic sound, a characteristic tone, a characteristic timbre, will result.

Set the string in motion in a different manner, and the characteristic sound, the characteristic tone, the characteristic timber, will be different.

Don't take my word for it, buy an oscilloscope and try it yourself.

I always liked Ginger..

I guess, and the original points Reece posted, seem to put the type of guitar, pickups, amp, etc as being secondary to how you play it.

Possibly the "balls" of playing is as Mr Charleton, (and Bob H seemed to echo,) taught me. To play as hard and with as much definition and feeling as you can, use the bar to "work" the sustain instead of "wiggling it around spastically", and not to count on the amplification to take the place of the aforementioned. That's what I got out of a couple years of lessons with him anyhow.

It's worked to my satisfaction playing steady live gigs for the following thirty years..

I can't wait for the "Elements of Tune."

I have a couple free days....

EJL

[This message was edited by Eric West on 22 November 2006 at 08:43 PM.]

1) A Player Piano - although there are hammers striking strings, the resultant sound is robotic, which, of course, it is; even to untrained ears, what's distinctly lacking is the human element.

2) A Violin - In the hands of someone new to the instrument, the squeaks, squawks, scrapes and squeals can be painful to hear, but someone with knowledge, experience and a delicate touch can evoke beautiful, thought-provoking music from the very same instrument.

First of all, wouldn't it be interesting were there to be a way to determine the exact weight of the downward pressure on the strings (including bar weight) while in the hands of a master!

When teaching I sometimes have the student slide the bar out of my hand so they can feel the weight resistance. This at least provides them some kind of downward pressure perspective.

This teaching technique is of course a variable because the bar weight can vary, however I have found the demonstration to be very helpful in their gaining a perspective.

Some may believe "just enough" downward pressure to eliminate bar rattle and make a clear tone is sufficient. That's certainly a good place to start experimenting and making determinations and possible adjustments just to see if it make a difference in the sound/tone.

I have done my best to analyze the weight of the downward pressure I use while playing,(un-scientifically of course) and I have come to the conclusion that I exceed the "just enough" downward pressure by possibly as much as a 1/4 of the total exerted pressure of "just enough".

The only explanation I have for the percentage I have determined is based strictly on my inate feelings, so others mileage may vary.

There are times when I prefer a heavier bar, and when doing so I have developed mental triggering which continually tells me I can use less downward force.

At times I prefer a heavier bar although I can feel the weight drag when moving quickly. When I use a lighter bar, although I inately add downward pressure, at times I somehow feel less encumbered.

------------------
Mullen SD-10 3&5 / nashville 400

[This message was edited by Calvin Walley on 22 November 2006 at 08:54 PM.]

I did know the early studio was there,
but basically under-maned,
and no real organized program. Till a bit later.
Though clearly courses were taught. Then the studio was expanded.

It was installed as an adjunct to the Performance Center.
At least this was what I was lead to believe back then.
We ARE talking 25-30 years ago now... seems like 50... or a million; DRAT!

Reece interesting about the downward preasure.

How about having the student slip his fingers under the strings BEHIND the bar
towards the rollers, touching lightly.

And as you move the bar back over their fingers a few times,
they can get a sense of how far down
the strings are pushed.

If the strings don't rattle, then it is just enough.
Works for me.

More than that will cause differing pitch bends on the strings.
Not to mention keeping an even preasure
across all strings while the bar moves...
If all strings changed pitch when stretched, evenly,
then tuners wouldn't neeed to be adjusted for each string.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 22 November 2006 at 09:51 PM.]

However, if you move the point of attc=ack you can limit the waveform...whcih is NOT what wwe're talking about.

Pick with celluloid, metal, a brick...if you do it at the same spot with relatively the same force, the tone will be the same after the point of attack, i.e. when the vibration reaches equilibrium. This is pure and simple college physics, and also basic acoustic theory. In this case, sitting behind a guitar is no substitue for education, sorry.

Perhaps Jay Dee will add his insight here, but in the meantime I will respond to someone who said in regards to him,

"Take away his amps and effects rack and then tell me his sound only changes by 20%. His tone would almost take on a complete 360 degree turn. Wait a minute, does he not have the same hands?"

I recently had the opportunity to hear Jay Dee in a recording session where he recorded direct with no amp, no effects, no EQ, no reverb, playing his Emmons PP, and he sounded exactly like Jay Dee. The tone was there right out of the guitar. Of course, we added reveb and sweetened the EQ just a bit in the mix, but we did not need to change the tone, just enhanced what was already there.

I am one of the "believers" in the concept that the tone/sound is the signature of each player and it is in the hands as much as it is in an artist who paints on a canvas. It's not about the oil or the canvas, but what the artist puts on it with his "hands".

I don't mean to minimize the need for good equipment. I own a lot of guitars, amps, etc., but IMHO, it is the touch of the hands that influence the listener to listen again more than any other single factor.

It should also be noted that the instrument itself is the work of a craftsman who built it with his own hands.

Changer's angle of curvature,
and it's change as it moves.

The rollers depth and curvature.

And when barring, your hand movements, even when ostensibly still.
Subtle, but real, changes in tension and distance.

With the pedal steel there is also
the changing tensions
and changing angle of the changer top side.

If a new player or early player is trying to sound like Buddy on day one I think they are making a mistake. IF a player is asking about technique or playing positions they should seek a teacher who is proficient and can guide them into proper hand positions and technique.

The great players or performers of Music on any Instrument, are not really thinking about the Music..it is flowing naturally. The soul , the music and the Instrument are all connected. If a Musician has to think about what to play, what position to play it in and then attempt to concentrate on tone, it's not gonna happen.

Paul writes:
-----------------------------------------------
Its easy to change instruments and amps for a difference in tone. It's much harder to master the actual playing of the instrument which is the only method that can provide the tone we all dream of having.

---------------------------------------------

Which to me means, practice and become proficient first , learn what YOUR Instrument is capable of, understand what you want it to sound like and then make it happen.

I happen to use a lighter bar as my left hand is in constant fatigue from a nerve issue from years back.. I can hear the difference using the lighter bar. I am aware of it.

I don't mean to be harsh , especially on Thansgiving but someone's gotta throw this out there..

How many times have we spoken with fellow players or attended local gatherings where someone has stated that they just got a new brand X or an old brand X and it sounds awesome..And then when they play..

well it's not awesome...

IF a Race car driver doesn't really know how to drive, putting him in a new Z06 isn't gonna help...

There are so many elements of tone, of which many are I feel are correctly discussed here but the HUMAN personal factor is the most important in my view. You can have all of the prescibed elements down, but if you are playing a gig and you pretty much are not in the ZONE that night, or just playing lazy or maybe tired from the workday, all those things, it is gonna show up in your playing and tone to some degree. On our Instrument you cannot hide from left hand or right hand technique..and execution. You're either doing it..or your not..I suspect that on certain occassions, even if we CAN do it..we don't.

" How come when you play my Tele it sounds totally different than when I play my Tele" ?

"Thats the Tone I'm trying to get "....

but

Like Stephen said to me on the phone the other night..

"Every Tele sounds great thru an AC-30"..

Now that may just be the exception to all the rules !

Happy Thanksgiving, travel safe..

great thread..

t

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 23 November 2006 at 03:22 AM.]

quote:

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practice and become proficient first

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Just my .02.

I believe that the significance of differences in tone pales in comparison to the significance of playing. Maybe a player of a particular instrument is very attuned to the differences in tone on his isntrument, but these differences are far less significant to the listening pulbic.

Does anyone who loves sax playing particularly care a great deal about the differences in tone betwen Parker, Coltrane, Young, etc. etc. Do they actually criticize one of them after one of their amazing improvisations because the tone wasn't great, but merely good?

Do blues fans care that much about the difference between Stevie Ray and Albert King when it comes to tone? I've read many posts from fans of them, and it is the incredible playing that gets discussed far far more often then the tone. They are generally far more into the quality of the composition.

And how many times have you seen an old video or heard an old recording of a fantastic performance and said "Wow, that guy played amazing stuff, but his tone was a little thin?" I know I never have. Superb playing speaks for itself.

And anyway, as has been pointed out, tone will inevitably improve as a player's technical abilities improve. However, you can not say that a player's technical abilities will improve as they work to improve their tone. Of course, trying to improve tone is easier than trying to play complex compositions or developing advanced technical ability.

The pressures under the strings may vary considerably when the bar is closer to the nut. I believe the downward pressure can remain within consistent parameters while the downward felt compression procedure such as you suggest, has the possibility of varying.

I have closely examined my bar pressure with and electronic tuner, and the percentage of added pressure I exert does not result in a pitch bend. As I mentioned earlier, the additional downward pressure I apply is nothing more than an "inate feeling".

Another variable to be considered concerning downward pressure, is the possibility of that pressure changing as we move from the nut up the scale.

Jim S....Nothing for you to feel sorry about, it is I who considers it unfortunate you dismiss the point concerning the Chet story. The point is not about who said it, it's about what was said.

Stevie..very good overall Strat tone..
and

I didn't know neil YOUNG played Sax !

" Now that you made it sound good, play the dang thing " !!

happy T-Day

quote:

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tone will inevitably improve as a player's technical abilities improve. However, you can not say that a player's technical abilities will improve as they work to improve their tone. Of course, trying to improve tone is easier than trying to play complex compositions or developing advanced technical ability.

---

Bullseye IMHO! Jeff said it much more eloquently than me on page 3 of this thread.

I believe a secret to accelerated learning comes in gleaning an overall perception based on logic which allows the mind to absorb and maintain a vast amount of information quickly.

Once the overall perception is understood, I believe the mind should disengage in thinking about the many procedures and elements, and let the sub-conscious take control of the entire process so the conscious mind can concerntrate on the music.

The elements involved in doing anything well, can be mind boggling when identified such as I attempted to do in the very beginning of this thread.

However please don't let that discourage anyone, because doing so it can provide a mental picture through logic that will allow the player to "stop thinking and begin playing". When that happens, greatly improved playing ability will result.

All the procedures of playing can appear to be overwhelming to relative beginners. One of my concerns about an indepth discussion, is that it could possibly tend to discourage some with less enthusiasm and determination than others. They may believe there are too many elements to consider, therefore the entire playing process is to complicated and time consuming.

I would like to assure anyone who may have that feeling, that if they will remain enthusiastic, positive and open minded and feed their mind with logical premise's, they will be taking advantage of what I believe to be a marvelous and fun filled shortcut to learning.

Today is Thanksgiving, and I wish each of you a blessed and joyful day...........

[This message was edited by Reece Anderson on 23 November 2006 at 05:01 AM.]