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Most of my tone comes from the pickups, the tubes and the speakers I use. I'd say 80%. Maybe 20% comes from the hands. Yes, tone starts in the hands but, for an electric steel guitarist, the largest components of tone are the electronic instruments used.

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I am with Bobby on this. The hands do indeed play a roll in the differing tones that can be produced by an electronically ampt steel guitar; however, the pickups, bridge, nut and tuner materials can give a steel guitar an entirely new voice.

Reece is also right in that the manner in which the strings are picked will give the strings a different vibration tempo. (with some steelers you can really hear the overly sharp snapping of the strings).

I think the bottom line however is that the steel guitar is an electronic sound produced instrument. Think of how many electrical occurrences the sound vibrations must pass through before it leaves the speakers. Every tiny vibration is enhanced, mushed out, bassed, trebled, reverbed and intensified as it passes through a myriad of electronic phases before it comes out of the speakers.

Try playing your steel guitar without any electronic sound reproduction equipment. Now start adding, one by one, all the electronic phases. The tone keeps changing as each phase is added.

The ideology of tone also bares the argument of what the listener equates as "good or great" tone. I love the very rich and mellow tones of a steel guitar and I tend to lay off the no man's land on the frets. To me, anything near or above the 15th fret is becoming piercing and I have a tough time keeping a mood in tact. When I hear a steel being played within the mid range notes and/or frets, I am enthralled by what I am hearing.

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(I am not right all of the time but I sure like to think I am!)

[This message was edited by Les Anderson on 21 November 2006 at 09:51 AM.]

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Thus, would it be a mistake for me to buy a guitar based on how I like the sound the first time I play it?

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Uhh, yes. (IMHO)

A guitar is just like a car. You may prefer this make or that make, and you may rationalize in your own mind that "this is the right one for me". In reality, though, any number of different ones would get you from point "A" to point "B". (That's about all cars are for.)

Guitars? Same thing. You may prefer this brand or that brand, and you may rationalize in your own mind that "this is the right one for me". In reality, though, any number of different ones would let you make good music. (Isn't that about all guitars are for?)

"Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so."

-- Douglas Noel Adams

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I place my picks tightly on the end of my fingers. This provides me the same perception as when fishing with a flexible fishing rod, in that I believe I can better "feel" the string response.

If I wear my picks deep, it's like fishing with a stiff pole and not being able to feel the "subtleties of the "bite" because the response is too stiff. (I have the same mindset for my thumb pick as well)

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After reading that I can see I am going to have to experiment a bit further with this. I had fairly quickly settled on wearing the picks "deep" mainly because it seemed more comfortable and stable, but also having watched Joe Wright's tape (Blocking Basics) where he describes making sure the meat of your finger is right behind the pick at the first point of contact on the string. He ascribes a thicker or richer tone to this technique than picking with the tip of the pick (the part without a finger directly supporting it).

This thicker, richer sound (if it's there) may be a result of digging in deeper with the pick, so having more of the pick surface slide along the string thus stretching the string further before the point release. More power to the pluck as it were. I think the power (or the amount of "archer's draw") might be the key tone-affecter here, not necessarily the depth of the pick on the finger. Of course you can overdo it and end up 'snapping' as Les points out.

As to 'control' or 'response', your point Reece, might a lighter gauge pick worn deeper equate to a heavier pick worn futher out, in terms of feel?

I think I feel more in control with my finger right behind the string, almost as if I'm not wearing picks . Plus I find it a little easier to get a positive, yet controlled PLUCK without the pick flying off.

With respect to the original post:

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LEFT HAND:

1. Amount of downward pressure exerted on the bar.

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Hmmm. This will affect (to an extent) the amount of sustain you get and how the harmonics of the note are pushed around, but the total effect I think is rather slight.

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2, Weight of the bar.

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I've experimented a bit with this. I find that while a heavier bar definitely affects the harmonic content of the note, the actual audible difference is fairly slight in the grander scheme of things.

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3. Mass of the bar.

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Weight is a function of mass. See the above.

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4. Bar Alloy.

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I have no experience with this, but I imagine it can have some effect on the harmonic content of the note.

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5. Diameter of the bar.

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I think this might have more to do with playing comfort than anything else, though I do know a knife-edge will sound different than a wide rounded surface.

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6. Bar vibrato manipulation.

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One of the things I love most about Greg Leisz playing is his vibrato. It's one of the few things I conciously try to emulate from another player. A person's vibrato is like their fingerprint.

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7. Weight distribution on the bar across the strings.

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I don't see this one as being any different from items 1 and 2 above. Same answers.

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8. Bar weight manipulation when changing positions.

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I don't really get what being driven at with this one. ???

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9. Finger weight of middle, ring, and little finger on strings behind bar.

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I think as long as you're touching the strings behind the bar, that's all that matters. How hard you press down might have an effect on how you change positions, and how you apply your vibrato, etc., but otherwise...

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10. Spread distance of the fingers trailing the bar.

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See above

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11. Finger placement when gripping the bar.

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Again, I can see this as effecting how you get from note a to note b, but not the actual sound of note a.

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12. Tightness of the bar grip.

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See above.

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RIGHT HAND:

1. Finger positioning relative to distance from the pickup.

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Absolutely. This is probably the most easily affected tonal change possible as well as the most dramatic.

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2. Finger pick material.

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I can guarantee you that your finger picks will sound different from my nails!

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3. Finger pick thickness.

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If you want that Bakersfield sound on Tele, you should use a fender thin pick, not a medium, not a heavy. The thinner the pick material (and shape does play a large role here as well) the brighter the tone and the weaker the fundamental.

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4. Angle of attack on the finger picks when entering the strings.

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You mean when striking the string, right? As the pick is "pulling" the string back, it is sliding across the string. At a certain point, the string snaps away from the pick. The "width" of that final contact point determines the pulse that travels up and down the string, which we preceive as a variation in tone.

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5. Pick depths on fingers and thumb.

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The deeper you go in, the more likely you are to pull harder on the string, and the larger the width of the final contact point.

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6. Distance thumb is moved away from the fingers.

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This might be more accuately stated as distance of thumb from bridge. The distance of the thumb relative to the other fingers is irrelevant. At least IMHO!

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7. Material and thickness of thumb pick.

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See comments regarding finger picks above.

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8. Weight distribution of the right hand on the strings.

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I don't understand this at all. ???

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9. Amount of “pull” pressure exerted on the finger picks.

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See various comments above.

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10. Amount of “push” pressure exerted on the thumb pick.

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See various comments above.

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11. Placement of the picks into the strings.

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I'm not sure I understand this one. ???

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12. Depth in which the picks go into the strings.

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Leonard B....Thank you for the clearification. May I then take the liberty of assuming you can without question consistently identify the sound of the Fessenden guitar from other guitars when your back is turned, no matter who's playing it?

George R....I fully agree with your accomplished violinist friend.

I will be happy to respond with my opinion relative to the bar. Will you please pose your specific question and I'll do my best.
Thank you for asking.

One other question.....was Douglas Noel Adams also a steel player

Jonathan S....Thank you for your comment directed to me. I have tried exactly that which you suggest, however, my doing so "clokes the feel" because of the combined mass of picks and extended finger contact being an integral part of the "pick snap"!

Twayne W....Very nice collective assessment, and I appreciate your doing so. It appears to me (not putting words in your mouth) that the summation of your opinion supports the mounting concensus that indeed the hands have the ability to shape the sound/tone, to at the very least, an appreciable amount.

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Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog

All pick ups and amps are after the fact modifications of tone,
like your choice of stereo speakers
or turning up the bass, and down on the treble, on your stereo.

Segovia's guitar recorded at 1.5 feet with 2 Schoepes mics,
will have a different tone, ON YOUR STEREO.
But the tone he got with his FINGERS is HIS SOUND.
It is just your system's failor to reproduce it faithfully.
His technique is based from
his best choices of manipulating his instrument.

How you choose to REPRODUCE your tone is your business.
How you actually create the original energy source
is what technique is about.

I most often play with no picks,
I do a lot of C6, and like huge chords and fingertip blocking,
but I do play with picks also.
John McGann stated my general pick shape philosopy.

I got a very nice Pete Drake sound last week, someone said they thought it sounded like the Dylan record sound,
Pete I am sure used picks.
But on E9 I modified my picking technique
to duplicate the pete Drake sounds
as I remember it. Aparently not to badly.

One other consideration is
the angle of curvature
and sharpness of the finger and thumb pick's point.

On mandolin I use a VERY hard Dunlop BIG pick
It has a quite sharp point and tapers on all sides,
down to the point.

I get lots of volume, great trills and attack.
I wish I could get some finger and thumb picks in this form.
It would allow a greater variety of picking angles to the string.
But I have never seen them.

The ideal would seem to be ;
picking just enough below the string
to engage it, and have a minimum of downward push/slide from the string as it escapes,
to allow as much as possible
a purely horizontal escape direction.

This seems in general an inconsistant to immposible variable.

Not to say OTHER angles of string release direction won't have and interesting tone.

But it directs the reciprical forces ;
counter to the pickups designed field action,
counter to the optimal function angle of the changer /rollers,
and counter to bar eveness as the string sustains and attenuates.

All these counter motions drain harmonics and resonances in less than the pure way of optimal angle release.

Harps are plucked from the side, but also from the front to back as much or more.
And the holes through which the strings go to the pedal changer mechanism,
are purposely round so that whatever angle it is plucked at,
will minimizes the aberations caused by differeing angles of attack
.
I don't see this as possible with current PSG's.
This leaves us with the self-flagilating task of
trying to crook our hands to meet our picks
to attack the string at our prefered angles
as best we can, WHILE actually making music!

And bend our picks to the crooked hands
we manage to make.
I have never seen 2 steel players pick sets that seemed much like the others.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 21 November 2006 at 12:07 PM.]

Well it was battered and scared,
And the auctioneer felt it was hardly worth his while,
To waste much time on the old violin but he held it up with a smile,
Well it sure ain’t much but its all we got left I guess we aught to sell it to,
Oh, now who’ll start the bid on this old violin?
Just one more and we’ll be through.

And then he cried one give me one dollar,
Who’ll make it two only two dollars who’ll make it three,
Three dollars twice now that’s a good price,
Now who’s gonna bid for me?
Raise up your hand now don’t wait any longer the auctions about to end,
Who’s got four Just one dollar more to bid on this old violin?

Well the air was hot and the people stood around as the sun was setting low,
From the back of the crowd a gray haired man,
Came forward and picked up the bow,
He wiped the dust from the old violin then he tightened up the strings,
Then he played out a melody pure and sweet, sweeter than the Angels sing,
And then the music stopped and the auctioneer,
With a voice that was quiet and low he said now what am I bid,
For this old violin and he held it up with a bow.

And then he cried out one give me one thousand,
Who’ll make it two only two thousand who’ll make it three,
Three thousand twice you know that’s a good price,
Common who’s gonna to bid for me?
And the people cried out what made the change we don’t understand,
Then the auctioneer stopped and he said with a smile,
It was the touch of the Master’s hand.

You know there's many a man with his life out of tune,
Battered and scared with sin and he’s auctioned cheap,
To a thankless world much like that old violin,
Oh, but then the Master comes,
And that old foolish crowd they never understand,
The worth of a soul and the change that is rought,
Just by one touch of the Masters hand.

Mark E....As we both know, both Carpenter and Corky are great players, and its evident to me you have noticed that which we are discussing relative to the hands.

The input from players like yourself who admit to being a relative beginner, have insights that may elude some of us because at times we tend to look at the the big picture with our nose against the canvas.

BTW.....we're almost neighbors if you haven't noticed. I was in Weatherford just the other day and I have a number of friends who live there. Great town..........

David D....Excellent points. I especially like your termonology of the hands being "the energy source".

Stephen G....Guess I missed it, but to my knowledge little has been said about tuning, except for your brief opening statement. So to say the discussion has drifted off topic in that direction, would not be accurate in my opinion.

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"Or... take brother Gene Jones's example,"

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I don't pretend that it was the best selection process, just the most expedient under the circumstances....I had to have a guitar for work that same night!

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www.genejones.com

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Bobby Lee....So which column do you consider yourself concerning the hands being relative to a percentage of the tone/sound? Are you a believer, or non-believer?

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Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog

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I am trying to get the strings to vibrate as horizontally as possible...

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That may or may not be significant. Here's an experiment you can easily do...

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Turn Up The Steel
Johnny Cox
MSA Steel Guitars

Should you be counted as one who believes the hands have nothing to do with the sound/tone, or could it be you are becoming a believer?"

However, even that is not relevant. A newbie who has been playing for 6 months might have a differeing opinion. Decades of experience doesn't always mean you're right. It might mean you have a very set opinion...but I've seen very experienced players speak out on technical subjects and have no clue what they're talking about.

This idea of "don't disagree with the big guys" is a phenomenon I've only seen on this forum.

And Jerry Garcia is that new kid who is ruining steel guitar...

;-)

"Most of my tone comes from the pickups, the tubes and the speakers I use. I'd say 80%. Maybe 20% comes from the hands. Yes, tone starts in the hands but, for an electric steel guitarist, the largest components of tone are the electronic instruments used."

I didn't ask what you were referring too when you said "I think me and b0b are the only ones that has this MESS figured out". May I ask what mess you are referring too?

You are of course right that all things begin with the mind, which I plan to address in another thread so as to remain on topic.

I want to clarify that I agree - Reece did NOT say it's ALL in the hands, only that it starts with the hands. Some have taken that statement as eliminating the instrument from the equation - my point is that IMO tone *starts* with the instrument, and it's not actually "tone" that's hand-manipulated.

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Turn Up The Steel
Johnny Cox
MSA Steel Guitars

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Damir, I don't understand---You imply that tone is in the individual's hands, then at the bottom of your post, there's a blurb that says:"When tone matters," and a link to Promat guitars. So which is it?

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Promat is a diferent guitar,it is a push pull guitar and it has a distinctive tone ,I`m sure we can agree about that.And yes,your tone is in your hands and your heart,

Db

ps

and btw.,it is not a "blurb", it`s called "slogan"

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"Promat"
~when tone matters~ www.promatsteelguitars.com

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my point is that IMO tone *starts* with the instrument, and it's not actually "tone" that's hand-manipulated.

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The "tone" of an instument, i.e. its timbre, is inherent in its construction, and in the case of electric instruments the construction of everything between and including the pickup and the speaker. When the player strikes a note, they are "selecting" a specific portion of the total timbral spectrum and bringing it to the fore. Thereby the "hands" DO manipulate the basic timbral platform.

There is the "tone" of the instument, i.e. its timbre, and there is the "tone" of the player, i.e. the players style and technique. The final result we hear is always a mixture of the two.

I know that for myself, the inherent timbre of an instrument dictates how I approach that instrument.

If you don't think hands have a blanking thing to do with tone, then you have nothing to say, do you?? PLEASE!!! STAY ON TOPIC!!