I think it’s ALL “tone”…good, bad or indifferent, but I also think what is “good” is completely based upon our own perception. I’ve heard tones that I personally thought were very crappy and not something I’d go for, but because the player using it was executing something so amazing, well, I sorta ended up liking the tone after all.

I tried to read all the posts about this but it reminded me of when I took up golf and realized there were soooo freakin’ many elements of the swing. Something that was supposed to be smooth and almost effortless ended up looking like I was having a seizure and all because I was thinking about it too much. I do the same thing with my sound and I know I think about it too much (although, I really appreciate the stuff I did read which means a lot of thought has gone into what makes tone tick). I do believe the (both)hands, the ears, the gear, tuning, humidity, temperature and all the hundreds of other things come to play (no pun intended).

Well, if you all figure it out, let me know the short version as that is all I can probably handle. Thanks for starting this interesting post Reece.

Mike

I would like to thank you for posting this topic ,
I for one have made some changes in my approach to
playing and examined how I was doing thing , and it has
made a difference . So Maybe knowing ! it was not a wast
of your time or effort ! it helped someone ! Me .

And maybe you will post other ideas or what ifs in the future .
Thanks

There's a story about a guitar pull in which great but distinctive guitarists (Let's say Hendrix, Page, and Buchanon) all took turns on the same guitar. Hendrix made it sound like Hendrix, Page made it sound like Page, and Buchanan made it sound like Buchanan.

If somebody made an audio tape of Clapton playing his SG and then handing it to Santana, and then Santana playing it and handing it to Cippolina, could you tell that all three cuts were back to back with only the guitarist different?

I'm just asking for what your hearing is like. I suspect some can hear it and some can't. I don't think I could hear it, but some people like Gruhn could probably hear a sound difference when Clapton opened and closed his eyes.

They had a TV camera close-up live on both
Doug Jernigan and Joe Wright's hands.
It really, REALLY showed two very clear ways
to get 'good tone'.
On divergent styles of music also.

I went home and tried to duplicate what I saw, in both styles.
it helped.
It might have helped MORE if I had read
Reece's listing above, before I went.

One thing I don't remember in the original list is pick-blocking
and it's effects on tone.

i.e. the touch of a plam or fingertips,
is much different than the hard surface of a pick.

I certainly think the advice from seasoned and aclaimed pro's
is more valid than the input from average hackers,
or beginners.

But that said, that superior knowlege
is not EXCLUSIVE to the pros.
Yet it may, in the totality, be better applied globally by them,
and hence giving their advice more validity.

An arbitrary line like 5 years does nothing to distiguish
technical accomplishment.
But I will note many with large numbers of years,
seem to debate more, and ask fewer cogent questions on topic,
than the rank beginers...

These days it is often better to get the tone a player is looking for in the recording headphones,
more than in the output of his equipment.

You must think is the AMP sound the reality,
or the recorded sound.
In most recordings it is what comes out of the recording system that counts most.
If it is neccesary to modify something
in the chain tpo get the player
the sound HE prefers in the control room,
Then so be it.

This would, during the recording process,
allow him the best feedback for his ears
and hands to play his best, and get his tone.

**************** To get back to topic more,
I take the liberty of quoting Reece's original post in it's entirety
Since it seems to have been lost a bit over time and debate.

*******************************************
" Much has been said and written concerning tone over many years, yet to my knowledge the specific elements which comprise tone have yet to be collectively identified.

What makes each of us unique in the sound we get, and why is it when we play someone else’s guitar it sounds different than when they play it?

Most will agree tone begins with the hands, so I will confine my thoughts only to that which comes in contact with the strings. (hands, bar and picks)

LEFT HAND:

1. Amount of downward pressure exerted on the bar.

2, Weight of the bar.

3. Mass of the bar.

4. Bar Alloy.

5. Diameter of the bar.

6. Bar vibrato manipulation.

7. Weight distribution on the bar across the strings.

8. Bar weight manipulation when changing positions.

9. Finger weight of middle, ring, and little finger on strings behind bar.

10. Spread distance of the fingers trailing the bar.

11. Finger placement when gripping the bar.

12. Tightness of the bar grip.

RIGHT HAND:

1. Finger positioning relative to distance from the pickup.

2. Finger pick material.

3. Finger pick thickness.

4. Angle of attack on the finger picks when entering the strings.

5. Pick depths on fingers and thumb.

6. Distance thumb is moved away from the fingers.

7. Material and thickness of thumb pick.

8. Weight distribution of the right hand on the strings.

9. Amount of “pull” pressure exerted on the finger picks.

10. Amount of “push” pressure exerted on the thumb pick.

11. Placement of the picks into the strings.

12. Depth in which the picks go into the strings.

Each element listed (and I’m sure more will be added) could be a topic of discussion while trying to analyze, evaluate and reach a general consensus.

I believe acquiring an overall mental perception of the many elements involved, provides the positive potential of change and rapid improvement."

************************************
On #12 Depth of pick going into the strings.

How many re-file their picks shorter,
and also how many round the angle
or concave the angle,
or generaly make the tip more pointed?

Also do you file the picks to change the apparent angle relative to your fingers
or thumb, resting strictly parallel to the strings/neck?

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 25 November 2006 at 02:22 AM.]

EC, Jeff Beck and Stevie Ray all played Strats, how came they all sound totally different ? And an entire planet full of young gun's are buying Strats everyday in the attempt to sound like EC, Jeff Beck and Stevie Ray..a few will, most will not, ever.

So here is the big Q

IF YOU picked up EC's Strat, could you SOUND like EC ?

IT's no different than the most commonly asked question..

How come when YOU play MY Tele it dosen't sound like when "I" play my Tele.."

thats what Reece and others are talking about here..

Put the exact same Push Pull in 12 peoples grasp..and ONE will shine like no tomorrow, the others will be chasing the shine beyond tomorrow, asking the pervervial question...

"How come when YOU play MY Push Pull it doesn't sound like when "I" play my Push Pull"?

This entire subject is alive and well because of the many who believe and have the mindset that if they BUY a certain brand of Instrument it elevates them automatically to GREAT TONE without actually putting in the hours to achieve great tone.

The actual Instrument, yes , of course is part of the greater picture..but the greats choose an Instrument because they KNOW that a certain Instrument , Electric or Acoustic, will allow them to stretch the envelope.

Jazz Violinist Stephane Grappelli was not GREAT because he played a Stradivarius, he was already great and the Stradivarius allowed him to accentuate what he already had.

earlier in this thread a I made comment which probably needs to be repeated..
we go to gatherings with other players, sometimes one of them is smiling mighty because they now have a brand X ( pp) and they tell us how GREAT it sounds, when they play, the first thought that comes to mind is calling WEBSTERS and telling them they need a new definiton for the word great, because the current one isn't working.

The Instrument does not make the music, it produces the music that the musician creates.
The Instrument can define the timbre and thats where it ends, in my OPINION of course.

t

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 25 November 2006 at 05:58 AM.]

We have not however considered that when the hand is in the playing configuration of most players, the finger picks are not entering the strings at an angle which will allow the entire surface of the pick to come in contact with the string.

When placing your hand in the playing configuration, notice that your fingers are at an angle to the strings, and were you to align the angle and allow the fingers to run parallel with the strings, you must bend your wrist to the right.

To counter this, accomodate the right hand configuration, and allow more pick surface to contact the strings, I put a slight clockwise twist on each pick which insures full pick surface contact.

Examination of the wear points on the finger picks you are now using will tell you if you have full pick contact.

Considering the many elements of playing, this may appear to be insignificant, but what if this slight angle adjustment felt very natural to you.

Actually I had heard that Buddy C has some very progressive methods for getting things done correctly.

t

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 25 November 2006 at 05:56 AM.]

For the same reason they each have Strats that sound different. Clapton on Blackie sounds like Clapton on Blackie - Clapton on Brownie sounds different. It's a subtle difference, but it's there. They have all been interviewed where they talked about differences in the same model of guitar. SRV was the least vocal about it, as he was the worst at dialing in any kind of tone himself - it took Cesar Diaz to "fix" his overall sound...but he still recognized the tonal difference between Strats.

Would you sound like Clapton if you played Blackie? No. And neither would Clapton sound like he was playing Blackie if he played your Strat (if you have one).

He would sound VERY close, but how close would depend on the inherent tone of the particular instrument. Once you baseline that, then the hands and Reece's excellent list come into play. As I've said repeatedly, Reece's list of things that influence how a player sounds is tremendous, and ranges from extreme to subtle effect. The effect, though, is still dependent on the baseline tone of the instrument.

if you put all 3 players on the exact same Instrument aka: Blackie, they would STILL sound different.They would each go after the TONE that they have developed.

Nobody is attempting to say that the Instrument is NOT part of the equation, it is, a very important part of it.

I play 6 stringers with NO PICKS..my execution on the exact same Instrument as others is TOTALLY different and produces a totally different sound..is it better or worse ? I don't know, I like it better so I guess that is the reference point for me. It has taken me my entire tenure on Guitar to bring in the tone and style that "I" like and want to hear with my rig. But I guarantee that if others play my exact rig very few will achieve the same results that I have. Will it be good, ? Sure, will it be the same? probably not.

approach, execution , style , gear. Each worthy.

Gear may be a constant, but approach, execution and style may vary considerably.

I think they each have a part in the grand plan.

and yes, I have a few Strats and would love for EC to come over and play them..I wouldn't care if he come over and didn't play them !

With my style and execution , each of them, very different guitars mind you, all sound the same to me.

t

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 25 November 2006 at 06:38 AM.]

I ask my students to simply relax their arms to their side, and from that relaxed position we begin constructing the hand configuration, pick angles and etc. while remaining relative their their natural tendencies as much as possible.

As I believe I mentioned earlier in this thread, I never tell anyone they must do something a specific way. In my opinion doing so has the potential of stiffling creativity. However when I do see what I consider to be an approach which has the potential to be detrimental, I provide them with what I believe to be the odds for success should they continue in that direction.

Over the years of my experience I have seen some amazing things accomplished musically which were out of the ordinary, and when I do I always think to myself, "what if their instructor had been successful in discouraging them". Had they done so the world would have been deprived of a great artist. I have personally never took that risk with a student.

The name Thumbs Carlisle comes to mind as a perfect example. He played regular guitar, but everything he done opposed every physical approach I have ever seen.

I think the way I've held the bar, as Bob Hofnar said because we had the same source, is helped more by a smaller diameter bar. A larger bar has always tended for me to encourage a "grab" grip, instead of holding it in a more relaxed manner.

Since it's a measureable quality, someone lke Ed Packard would have to do some sonograms (sp?).

Myself I'd like to see the results of other than metal bars.

A lot of it since we're working with the subconcious "edge" might be plain superstition. I know that for some reason, problems I've been having during any given night seem to go away when I use my "Shot J" bar. Same diameter/weight, different "mojo". Kind of like a guy that's using a BJS bar with the wrong birthstone..

JMHO.

Dennis D....Concerning the point you raised about picking with the thumb and middle finger....I am of the opinion more efficiency of movement can be accomplished when playing single string if the picking is alternated between the thumb and index finger, because in so doing it provides for the middle finger(which normally plays the highest string) to be "held in reserve" to make a quick transition to a higher string.

You also posed a very good question....does the thumb and middle finger pressures more closley match?

I believe most will agree, equal and consistent pressure matching is very important to sound/tone, which is why I use two fingers when playing two notes at the same time unless they are so far apart I lose my natural feel.

The other thing about the big steel one is it causes a completely different approach from a "slinding into a note" stanpoint (or sliding into a chord). Any movement requires more acceleration and you have to slow the movement sooner than with a light bar. It's not a huge effect, but there is a marked difference in style.

I noticed it in Sneaky's playing after I got my big bar (which was his old spare). There's a slight, but perceptible difference, and if you could chart out a "curve" of speed, the big bar would have flatter spots at the start and end, while a lighter bar would climb and descend more rapidly.

------------------
Mullen SD-10 3&5 / nashville 400
Hilton volume pedal

Practice does not make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect!

Misdirected practice is time consuming, frustrating, and the possibility of achieving success is slightly better than zero, provided one lives to be 100 and has the capacity to still be playing.

Unfortunately, far to many recognize too late the futility in misdirected practice and quit playing. When they do, both the individual and steel guitar itself are the losers.

Misdirected practice is time consuming, frustrating, and the possibility of achieving success is slightly better than zero, provided one lives to be 100 and has the capacity to still be playing.
----------------------------------------------

The presenting of new ideas and questions by many who are participating in a positive manner on this thread is appreciated by those truly interested in learning.

Without question, we are collectively making a positive contribution to those who have a sincere desire to push the envelope of new ideas of learning while enjoying playing.

The following list corresponds to the numbers on the first page of this thread…..

LEFT HAND:

1, The amount of downward pressure should be just enough to overcome bar/string rattle!

2. The weight of the bar is proportionate to the weight required to overcome bar/string rattle!

3. The mass of the bar is also relevant to number 1 and number 2!

4. Different bar alloy was not discussed enough to form a preliminary consensus!

5. Diameter of the bar is discretionary provided the needed control and downward pressure is considered!

6. Bar vibrato of differing speeds and lateral distance can provide emotion and enhanced tone!

7. Weight distribution of the bar can be variable across the strings as long as the strings being played do not have bar/string rattle!

8. Bar weight manipulation has not reached a preliminary consensus!

9. No additional downward pressure is required other than the resting weight of the ring and little finger!

10. Finger separation of the ring and little finger is less inhibiting relative to bar vibrato!

11. As long as the bar is secure both front and back, and the ability has been acquired to slightly raise the back of the bar and execute controlled vibrato, the configuration is meeting the requirements of achieving a good tone!

12. The grip pressure on the bar should be as relaxed as possible provided bar security is not compromised!

RIGHT HAND:

1. This has not been discussed enough to form a preliminary consensus!

2. Metal finger picks are likely best!

3. Finger pick thickness is not critical unless the picks are of such light gauge it allows them to change pick angles while playing!

4. The extent of the excitement of the strings can be varied by changing the pick angles. It is generally believed the “bite” on the string which results in added pressure exerted, provides a better tone!

5. The depth of the picks is a matter of personal feel, but as long as it meets the criteria specified within number 4, any depth is acceptable!

6. A wide separation between thumb and fingers usually results in added pressure on the strings!

7. The thickness of a plastic thumb pick has the propensity to provide a more bass like sound when compared to metal finger picks, which makes pick selections very important!

8. The weight distribution of the right hand when touching the strings should be only that which is required to dampen the strings!

9. Pull pressure on the finger picks may vary relative to pick angles, but generally if the pressures are balanced it will contribute to a good tone!

10. Same response as #9!

11. A specific area on the neck in which to insert the picks when playing, has not reached a preliminary consensus!

12. Depth of picks into the strings varies depending on the angles, but the deeper the pick goes into the strings, the farther it is to remove and strike the next string, which could be detrimental to some!