Larry

ALL session players are confronted with this type of work so it would be interesting to hear their comments.

Off topic:

Jim,

IMO, A note on pedal steel guitars without manipulation is cold and it sounds non musical. Without the addition of the mind, hands, feet, knees, and most importantly, the heart, there is "NO" tone worth listening to. Creating personal tone out of a pedal steel for the "Most" part is a physical and mental undertaking.

It's your choice and most sadly your loss to argue semantics over given points with some of this instruments greatest musicians. Why not sit back and learn from Reece and Randy Beavers, instead of trying to stand on the same ground as those giants. They are freely trying to share their knowledge about playing music while maximizing a players complete personal tone. Are you a master of the playing tools Reece was trying to discuss here? If so, post some soundclips and share some playing tips.

[This message was edited by Franklin on 23 November 2006 at 09:34 AM.]

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Fred Justice,
Justice Custom Cases & Cabinets,
Fred's Music, www.fredjusticemusic.com

I've never heard a more true statement. It seems as though tone is a nasty four letter word here. My analogy would be, Telling Reece, or Randy, or you about tone or playing the instrument would be the same as Helen Keller telling Dale Earnhardt how to drive a race car.
The bottom line is " a musical instrument is an inantiment[sic] object untill someone starts playing it."
Happy Thanksgiving to all,

quote:

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Once the overall perception is understood, I believe the mind should disengage in thinking about the many procedures and elements, and let the sub-conscious take control of the entire process so the conscious mind can concerntrate on the music.

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Happy Thanksgiving to all!

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http://www.johnmcgann.com
Info for musicians, technique tips etc. Joaquin Murphey transcription book, Instructional DVDs, books and more...

First Paul, I wasn't dismissing what Reece said at all. That got lost in the "possee" jumping in and deciding I said things I didn't...including Reece, who in his reply to my first post misinterpreted me, which I corrected - and the correction was ignored, as the air of "Reece MUST be right, Jim must have said that" became all too apparent.

Since then, several times I have pointed out that I agree completely with the influence the hands have on the total sound, and they are a large part of what defines that player's sound.

But I've also suggested that the instrument's inherent tone is where everything starts. The hands manipulate THAT sound.

It's on-topic, a perfectly valid point...

...and based on 40 years (with thousands of gigs) of playing guitar and bass, 30 years of dobro (where the hands do much of the same manipulation) and mandolin, 25 years of lap steel, and other various instruments; including decades as a guitar and amp tech, a live sound engineer at Universal Amphitheater, a member of Fender's Artist Endorsement list, a couple hundred studio dates (never my main thing, unfortunately), guitar technical book editor/ghost writer among other "beginner" activites.

If I had a way to post sound clips of my own stuff and permission to post them of other's I would. But I guess you'll just have to take my word that I have a small amount of experience.

I've held off from posting all this stuff, because I feel it's unecessary. Intelligent commentary is what it is, and this is the only forum I've ever seen where unless you're a "steel hero" or one of their leg humpers, your opinion is crap.

This thread certainly has been humorus at times. Have you ever heard the quote "steel guitar players are educated beyond their intelligence"? Gee, I sure hope Mr. A wasn't talking about ALL of us.

[This message was edited by Merle Record on 23 November 2006 at 08:23 AM.]

A truck gets stuck under a bridge, all the engineers , truck drivers and local mechanics come around to get the truck out, which they still have not accomplished. The young 12 year old boy says "Let the Air out of the tires".

I like reading all the responses, even the ones that make me scratch my head, which are usually my own

Even if NOTHING in the recording chain has changed,
except possibly humidity and air presure in the environment,
you STILL find tonal differences.
If you lay 3-4 passes on different tracks,
you must be carefull when combining them
into a 'best of track', that the tones are congruous.

So before engaging the hands we must engage our analytical musical ear,
then that must be closely coupled to our hands
through great technque to make good tone,
and REPEATABLE consistant tone.

This seems to me the benmark of the great session cat.

Reece, my thought was simply to communicate to a student,
in a rudimentary fashion, how much downward presure you apply to your bar at differing places.

Will it yeald imperical data, nope,
but it might communicate something useful.
So I was wondering if it had been tried or considered.
I was thinking on about what your previous post had mentioned.

Mike S. I had a teacher at Berklee many years ago who said,
"Learn everything, then forget it,
what will come out then, will be you."

Jeff L.
I know what you mean, most people think the tone they hear
was the intention of the player,
no matter how many times the reproduction
process has changed it before they hear it.

So they assume that what they hear MUST be great tone,
because a great player played it.

As a recording person I DO hear things differently
and DO notice less than perfect(IMHO) tonal
choices in recordings, but then I trained to LOOK for those things over many decades.

Most people don't even seem consider that as relevent.
Including a surprising number of musicians I have known.
Not to say they didn't have good tone, or awareness.

It's a joy to work with musicians who, like Paul,
hear their tone and can change their technique,
as needed to match a track or an overall band sounds as needed.

Wade, addressing your point.
Humidity and air presure in the environment can change your tone in the room,
it may likely not be your ears, but the air that is transmitting vibrations too them.

I am sure fatigue, recent manual labor, and other physical things
can contribute to our hands not moving
in as finessful a fashion some days.
I am sure Reece and the other great players here
have some thoughts on this, and how to overcome it.

Thank you to each and every one of you here,
for your insites
and counter-arguments, which in several cases
accentuated Reece's points.

A very happy holliday to you all,
where ever you maybe.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 23 November 2006 at 08:38 AM.]

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Mullen SD-10 3&5 / nashville 400

[This message was edited by Calvin Walley on 23 November 2006 at 09:09 AM.]

Go back and check how long I've been playing "steel".

You guys are unbelievable. A perfect eaxample of what I was talking about. Calvin...I wasn't arguing with "old pros", sir, either. But it's useless explaining this to you, I'm sure.

[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 23 November 2006 at 08:35 AM.]

But as soon as the pros post a thread someone will try and undermind their experience and argue the point to no end, until they are completly satisfied they have totally screwed it up for the rest of us, just so they can be right. I'd rather be happy than be right. It makes me a better player.

Reece I for one appreciate any info you have to give, and for the fortitude in which you have given it. To the others that feel the need to needle the point I say go back to your bedroom and polish your steel due to the tarnish you are putting on an otherwise informative thread.

To the other pros, I would ask that you all consider keeping on, keeping on posting the information that seems to get us into the right frame of mind to play, and play well. Thank you.

Herbie

As far as our resident PRO's, and we all know who they are, and we all have the most respect for them..I am certain that when each of them state something we all read it with wide open eyes, and are very gratefull.

But lets also not forget, there are several players around who may not be called Pro's, for one reason or another who chose NOT to become the road PRO or may have given up the road years back for a less hectic life ( and maybe more income) to pursue other opportunities. That does not make them lessor players, but rather UNKNOWN players.

I heard that one such fella who lives in in upstate SC played the Saluda show not long ago, and the featured PRO stated.. " Are you crazy ? I aint' goin' up there with him "...

I doubt anyone is speaking in this thread with disrespect, if they did, I missed it.

I'm kinda like Fox News here, trying to be Fair and Balanced. I like both styles of Music, Country and Western...

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 23 November 2006 at 09:30 AM.]

To borrow a phrase from the fishing industry...
10% of Steel Players get 90% of the good tone (no matter if they're using your rod, or mine )!
So just think... with 6000 Steel Forum Members, beyond the top 20+ or so best pickers of all time, there are still some 580 guys with better tone than the rest of us!!!

Reece, can you follow up on your "technique vs. tone" points with You Tube Videos? Maybe that would get the point across???

[This message was edited by Pete Burak on 23 November 2006 at 09:25 AM.]

Like weather, tone is a complex system. It's safe to say it's affected by almost anything (including the weather). IMO, we can't even begin to discuss it without using a lens to focus on the part we're talking about. I appreciate your efforts to do that here, Reece - looking at tone through the lens of what the hands do, and clarifying the pieces involved. There are some pieces I hadn't even thought about, but of course they have an effect. I'm sure paying attention to them will help my playing.

Thanks, again, to all the pros who've weighed in on this. It's making me aware of something else: like advanced scholars, professionals who've devoted their lives to this instrument have a shared understanding and a shared vocabulary to reflect it. I believe Reece, Paul Franklin and Johnny Cox (to name three) have an understanding of "tone" that's more nuanced than mine, and I'm glad for the insights I can glean here. (Just like Einstein had a more nuanced understanding of relativity than I do.) It's truly amazing to have this discussion available.

(Calvin: Respectfully, I have to interject that 5 years on steel for one person can produce a completely different level of playing than that amount of time for another. Playing live consistently for 5 years will give you more experience than playing in your bedroom for 10 years, IMO. There's no way anybody can enforce a rule like that on posting.)

I, for one, hold the experienced and well-known players here in high regard. But I also have many personal friends here whose posts I respect as well. Everyone has something to contribute here, not only the stars. If a steel great wants to put forth ideas and share his/her experience without opposition or input from beginners or intermediates, then this can be easily done by providing the info on a post and then closing it. Everybody can then avail of the info, and there's no other distractions. Also, the imparting of valuable info can be done on personal websites as well. This is a forum, not a lecture hall. Experienced players do deserve respect, but a mutual admiration society seldom accomplishes much.

Nobody has the right to tell anybody else not to post. If certain pros do not want to post here, that's their choice. But they can't expect everybody to agree with everything they say, all the time. If it was like that here, the place would dry up and wither in no time. I'm thankful for the pro players who post here, and also thankful for those with the courage to say what's on their minds. Unfortunately, that combination is sometimes lethal.

So, if a "pro" doesn't value or agree with the opinion of a "regular guy" post, than my humble advice would be to ignore it and concentrate on the posts that are agreeable to him/her. This post wouldn't be more than 2 pages long without all the arguing. Like it or not, people have a perverse interest in watching arguments like this.

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Sho~Bud Pro 1
Peavey Session 400
Goodrich LDR
my webpage

[This message was edited by Chris LeDrew on 23 November 2006 at 09:54 AM.]

I read, as a project, this whole thread.

More words about less, written faster, I don't think I've ever read.

I definitely thank Reece for his thoughtful, and thought provoking post. And Paul Franklin for his insight into how it looks from where he is.

Thank you Jim Sliff, for providing your input and observations from a point of view that seems to be more like mine.

I don't agree with the totality of your posts, but trying to remind you how insignificant you might be seems a little stupid. Even if I knew you were..

Time for me to turn off the instrument that doesn't make music, and turn on the one that does..

Thank YOU b0b. Thanks to you, it's all on record.

Some of it is plain precious...

EJL

[This message was edited by Eric West on 23 November 2006 at 10:55 AM.]

re: downward pressure

My classical guitar teacher back in college (Douglas Neidt) used to teach that you only used just enough pressure to hold the string down without rattling. The idea was that you could then move your finger to new positions much more quickly because you weren't as committed to a single position -- you didn't have as much downward pressure to overcome.

What I found trying to follow that advice was that if I lightened my touch that much, I often missed putting enough pressure down and consequently "fluffed" more notes. So I, being the headstrong person that I am, threw that idea out the window and realized that you need to use just a bit more pressure than neccessary to ensure always getting the right amount of pressure.

I have a friend (PhD in education, philosopher, jazz guitarist and now crafty guitarist) who has a rule he calls the "Law of One More." This means to aim just beyond your goal, not directly at your goal. I've found it a remarkably useful stratagem in many aspects of music and life.

So, if on a pressure scale of 1 to 10, you need to apply 5 with the bar to keep the strings from rattling, you actually want to use a 6.

As if it had run out of reasons.

Tony P....I consider it unfortunate most threads with 20 or more posts (to use your termonology) "turn dark". It however appears this thread has taken a positive turn toward the bright side, thanks to the voices of many.

David M....Mental imaging of the elements and procedures of playing is without question a vital practice method. I believe the mind must be prepared and engaged before putting the hands, knees and feet in motion.

Stephen G....It's great that you lend your support to the effort and intent. I'm sure you have insights which if shared, could be very enlightening. I'll look forward to that as will many others I'm sure.

Eric W....Forgive me if I'm surprised, but thank you or your support. There are many like yourself who also wish those considered as "flies in the sugar" would adhere to the exact words in the beautiful picture..."Just Make It Stop".

Thank you for supporting those interested in learning more about our instrument by means of informative and dignified exchanges of thoughts and ideas which as we all know is what the forum is all about.

[This message was edited by Reece Anderson on 23 November 2006 at 07:24 PM.]

I also thank those who realize that years of experience can mean something. And those who paid attention and realized the only "beginner" aspect in my resume is *pedal* steel, which was not the object of discussion.

For the record, I did not want to post any kind of resume, because I feel it's uneccessary. But there is such a lack of respect here for "apparent" beginners I was forced iinto it...and asked to by friends who thought I was unfairly targeted.

Sometimes people rush to the defense of those who don't ask for it, and maybe amplify their "tone" into something it wasn't meant to be.

They don't seem to realise they are doing it, or they might think they are helping their "careers".

I can't remember asking you any questions that you didn't answer, or the reverse. I'm really busy a lot and I'm sure you are even moreso.

Nothing's easy, or cut and dried, and without a will to cut through semantics or mistyping, nothing but chaos seems to ensue.

Most all the "Greats" have websites of their own for people to hump their legs, order their products or even answer questions.

The Greats I see here, are here to their great credit, and our great benefit.

Just participating like the other 5985+/- members. They are of a right to have good days, bad days, be in the clouds, throw a hissy fit, just like the kid that just bought a guitar and is frustrated.

They stand out in my book by the times they prove that they are not only "one of us", but they really want to help people that are struggling with the same things they might have.

If my opinion is worth anything, Reece you've created, taught, played, and encouraged more music than I could if I lived a hundred-fitty years..

We know "Greats" by their fruits, as well as their music.

We're just people. Steel Guitar Players.Most of us are not Elevated Acclaimed, or Recognized. From what I see, a good representation of guys that have made PSG a large part of their lives, if not the best part of it in some of our cases.

Thanks for hanging out with a cross section, and showing what you are made of.

EJL

[This message was edited by Eric West on 24 November 2006 at 08:42 AM.]