In the "grand plan" the semantics are unimportant as are possible erroneous intrepretations, both of which are meaningless when compared to the importance of discussing steel guitar itself which brings joy to many and perpetuates the instrument. I believe such things should not have a priority over steel guitar and those who love and play them.

Most everyone has been misquoted, falsely accused and judged, but I believe wise men know when to let go and move on.

Eric W....I most sincerely thank you for your compliments and your elogently stated comments. We have had differences of opinion in the past, but as you know, I always respected you and your opinions as well as the dignity of our exchanges. The steel guitar world needs people like yourself to participate and help us all while on our never ending journey of learning. I hope you can find the time to do so.

[This message was edited by Reece Anderson on 23 November 2006 at 08:17 PM.]

I think good tone is in the mind and ear of each individual listener. What is your opinion?

That could be a whole 'nother thread, Reece A. One which could be as long as the ZB thread, or as long as this one will apparently end up. As to your ignorance of the aforementioned thread, I would infer that you choose to ignore large parts of the Forum.And, uh, you misspelled "eloquently."

edited to add:
Lest my opinions be construed as ANYONE'S but my own, or my attitude be considered pompous or arrogant, I think I'll leave this thread alone. You guys have fun, OK?

[This message was edited by Stephen Gambrell on 23 November 2006 at 10:02 PM.]

Just a thing to add on topic.

Some of the things we do for YEARS might need changing along the lines of the original notes by MR A.

Myself, I stumbled into the fact that after 20 YEARS I had been using the same kind of thumbpick that Bud C had suggested in the first lesson. A Blue Herco. I always used one until they started making them out of weaker material.

It wasn't until I ran out of ones that fit and actually cut a big tortoise Dunlop into a thinner Herc type shape and it actually FIT my thumb, and I could actually pull a thumbpicked note OUT of the guitar. I got looking at pictures of BCs thumb, and realised that his thumb was narrower at the tip than mine was.

After years of trying a lot of different strings, I found that SSes worked better on E9, and that SIT Power Wound Nickels worked better on the C neck.

Along with that, 16ks were closer to the sound I was after for years and like the pickup I liked best that Danny Shields wound for me in the 80s, that didn't live any longer than he did. At the time I just replaced it with a stock 20k and called it good. I was too busy and JW wasnt doing custom rewinds yet.

I also tried having JW put taller magnets under the .24 wounds on both necks and it made a BIG difference in the signal that had always been weaker on smaller wound strings next to thick plain ones. Another thing I just stoppped and too a second look at.

It never hurts to rethink things you have done for years. Go down a list like Reece offered and think about things that might change things that you might not have thought of.

It helped me even in my declining years..

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Main Entry: tone
Pronunciation: 'tOn
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French tun, ton, from Latin tonus tension, tone, from Greek tonos, literally, act of stretching; akin to Greek teinein to stretch
1 : vocal or musical sound of a specific quality ; especially : musical sound with respect to timbre and manner of expression
2 a : a sound of definite pitch and vibration b : WHOLE STEP
3 : accent or inflection expressive of a mood or emotion
4 : the pitch of a word often used to express differences of meaning
5 : a particular pitch or change of pitch constituting an element in the intonation of a phrase or sentence
6 : style or manner of expression in speaking or writing
7 a (1) : color quality or value (2) : a tint or shade of color b : the color that appreciably modifies a hue or white or black
8 : the effect in painting of light and shade together with color
9 a : the state of a living body or of any of its organs or parts in which the functions are healthy and performed with due vigor b : normal tension or responsiveness to stimuli; specifically : muscular tonus
10 a : healthy elasticity : RESILIENCY b : general character, quality, or trend c : frame of mind : MOOD

---------------------------------------------

ok then, there ya have it !

t

PS: Reece, there is a ZB Guitars thread somewhere on the Forum that has like 1000 entrys on it..

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 24 November 2006 at 03:09 AM.]

Unfortunately.......to me it appears you have been pursuing a personal agenda manifesting itself by means of attempted "side tracking" which has been defused, and the result is the triggering of your becoming condescending.

As partial validation, why would you accuse me of ignoring other parts of the forum, when like everyone else, I choose what I wish to read. I don't consider my doing so as an error in judgement or a character flaw.

Nothing you claim I have done comes remotely close to reducing itself to the level of being condescending or disrespectful such as you have successfully achieved.

I honestly hope you continue to add your comments to this thread should it continue. I know you have considerable playing experience which could be very helpful were you to share your insights.

Should you feel I owe you an apology for anything I have said, you have but to inform me.

W.Franco....I have seem many successful players who have varying hand configurations.

I believe if logical information is entered into the mind, the sub-conscious will then seek and achieve the required hand configuration, and subsequent execution will occur which will create the desired sound.

For instance, if someone is trying to achieve a specific sound, that means the sound is already in their head. The transfer from that which one hears in their head to the fingers should come from the conscious mind by means of logical preprogramming while the sub-conscious manipulates the execution and sound.

I have never seen any proficient steel player continually watch their right while playing. I believe the reason to be the sub-conscious realization that when doing so, it interrupts the sub-counscious information flow.

The mind has a tendency to follow the eyes, and if the eyes go to the right hand, the mind disengages from the thought process relative to positioning and preplanning of that which the player "intends" to play. The result is usually a mental train wreck.

Jimmie M....In my opinion, it would appear your proficiency has reached the point that your sub-conscious is telling you it wants to accept the responsibility of the control of your right hand, therefore in my opinion you can now concentrate on the fretboard and not concern yourself with the right hand. Doing this will allow you to concentrate and visualize the music itself as it lays on the fretboard.

As for the original post by Reese. If you look at all the variables to the tone you can coax out of a guitar he listed, you could develop your own tone/sound on the instrument just by accentuating any one of these. Each one has such a strong influence on what your sound can be.

The instrument itself does indeed have a basic individual tone that is a result of the construction and the electronics used, but that basic tone is totally subjugated and changed by the physical effects of the hands of the player manipulating the instrument. That is what gives each player his individual sound.

Question: How valuable is it to attempt to develop your playing techniques to produce the tone you hear in the recordings of your favorite player? Could it be that the sound you hear coming out of your speakers is a highly manipulated version of the player's original sound?

Reece - despite the issues with this thread, I think sometimes that even the acrimony in a discussion like this can serve as a catalyst to really critically examine how to produce sounds on the instrument, which I think is essential. To learn often requires one to throw away old ideas, even ones that are deeply and emotionally held. This can be difficult, and sometimes only done when the old ideas are strongly challenged. I sincerely hope this kind of thing doesn't drive away some of the great players that have posted on this thread.

I want to respond to Jeff Lampert's comments:

quote:

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I believe that the significance of differences in tone pales in comparison to the significance of playing...

---

I argue that tone production is a critical component in the "significance" of playing. Yes, I and many others are critical of fast playing with good melodic, harmonic, and rhythmic ideas yet has poor tone. Your Parker/Trane/Young analogy is right on target. I know jazz enthusiasts who strongly prefer players like Coleman Hawkins and Ben Webster because their "tone" is more pleasing to them. Of course, many others feel differently. I like them all, but it takes all kinds.

On the blues side, I argue that technical virtuosity is much less important than emotional connection, and for many people, "tone" is a critical ingredient. Many blues players and fans, especially, are very critical of virtuosic "blues-like" players who can't produce a good blues "tone" and substitute lots of notes, virtuosically played, for good blues feel and tone.

The sounds you hear on finished CDs or LPs etc. may have been manipulated many ways. The original sound source is affected by the type of mic used, the mic placement, the console EQ that the engineer dialed in while recording and then the EQ and effects added during mixing and mastering. Even the make of console will contribute a sound color to the recording.

You would be amazed at the difference in the source tone and the final tone of instruments being recorded in a recording studio. There was a period where engineers did all they could to realistically capture as close as they could the original sound of the source they were recording. This mindset in recording is not the norm now. Highly processed, EQ'd, compressed etc sounds that present more of an effect rather than a natural sound are the norm.

If I were looking to try to approximate a certain steel guitar tone, I would listen to some samples of late 50s and 60s recordings. These would be more in line with unadulterated recording techniques that would get you a little closer to the what the actual guitar sounded like in the studio.

Herbie

edit: actually when I think about it I'd say only the E9 tuning on PSG and maybe the G tuning on dobro were started as "country only" tunings. Of course even that has long since been disproven.

For the record...IMHO it's all in the hands.

[This message was edited by Rick Schmidt on 24 November 2006 at 09:58 AM.]

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Fred Justice,
Justice Custom Cases & Cabinets,
Fred's Music, www.fredjusticemusic.com

quote:

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The PSG was developed for, Country Music
by, Country Musicians

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Actually, it was developed by Alvino Rey and guys like Rico Tuchetti for big band music.

------------------
Warning: I have a telecaster and I'm not afraid to use it.
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My web site

quote:

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I personally see no indication the steel guitar is going the way of the Accordian. I'm convinced the beautiful inherent sound characteristics and the enthusiasm of those who play it, insures it's future.

---

quote:

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The Steel Guitar going the way
The Accordion vanished from the Big Recording
Labels

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The big labels are increasingly less responsible for creative music and increasingly more responsible for mass entertainment.

Good accordion music and good steel guitar music can be found on independent labels. It's not dead, just not at your recently closed local "record store" (Tower and Virgin both closed won in the Boston area, long after wiping out most Mom and Pop shops).

What's the last major label record that featured steel guitar upfront (not just a solo and fills, but steel guitar featured as the main voice)?

------------------
http://www.johnmcgann.com
Info for musicians, technique tips etc. Joaquin Murphey transcription book, Instructional DVDs, books and more...

[This message was edited by John McGann on 24 November 2006 at 12:27 PM.]

Randy B....Your comments are of course true without question, well taken, and thought provoking.

That which I had in mind when I made my statement was referencing the inherent characteristics of potential by having the ability to make long uninterupted slides while maintaining sustain and having the advantage of altering the chord during the slide by means of physical manipulation of the pedals and/or knee levers.

For purposes of this post, "tone" will be defined as a combination of instrument timbre, player manipulation of said timbre, and player "style".

When a player is said to have great tone, what is usually meant is not only the raw timbre that is being produced, but mainly the player's approach to, and shaping of, the notes involved. Great raw timbre is easy to obtain. A good guitar, a good amp, and the ability to hit notes cleanly is about all it takes. It's the other stuff that difficult.

Now, the shaping of notes is what Reece's list is about. When you hit a note, you can strike it hard, you can strike it soft, you can strike it so it has more or less bite, you can strike is so it blooms, or you can cut it off, etc., etc., etc.

After you strike a note comes the critical phase: what next? This is where tone lives, because this is what distinguishes one player from another. This is that zen moment where all the possibilities of past/present/future commingle. Placing your attention at this spot is where the real magic happens.

In slightly more practical terms, this is where you determine your approach to the next note. Will it be struck in the same manner as the previous note? How much time will there be before the next note is struck? Will the previous note become legato or staccato? How much vibrato will be applied and what of its speed and duration? Will the next note be in time or out of time? If so, by how much? Will this new note be louder or softer, brighter or duller? What will be the harmonic/melodic relationship of this new note to the previous note and the ones before it and the ones to come after it? Will the new note actually be silent???

For most of us, when playing, these questions don't even remotely get to a concious level. Hours and years of practice and experience make the decisions automatic, even rote. BUT, if you want to work on your "tone" THIS is where it's at. REALLY listen. Open your ears and your attention. Feel each note and its interaction with the other notes. FOCUS.

In a masterclass with the great classical guitarist Pepe Romero, I watched him take the best student in the class and by simply having her do the above, create a quantum leap in her performance, from student to professional level. It was breath-taking.

I beleive this is what Susan Alcorn means by Deep Listening as well. Or as I read in another post about a player who savored every note like ice-cream and apple pie.

Kevin Hatton, Thanks for bailing me out of that , I forgot to mention the Commercial,Money Neck, E9th Chromatic tuning that evolved, it was also handy in soft rock.

Hope you are right. Reece, The Steel is still King here in the south, coupled with a good Lead Guitar Picker, We try to play for the Audience, and Not for Musicians,at the gigs. I have seen super pickers, play themselves out of a job, they would not back off.

Herbie

[This message was edited by Reece Anderson on 24 November 2006 at 03:43 PM.]

Like many others I have a diffcult time getting the tone I want to translate to the instrument. WHat adds to the confusion sometimes is hearing an acceptable tone and then losing it when playing along with a track.

As a test, play your guitar and tweak the tone before playing along with a track. In many cases, you might go back and have to re-tweak (is that a word) to try to get the same timbre as you had when you were solo.

I would love to have pure tone in both solo and fill work and sometimes it is frustrating to get it. I have worked with Reece on this and making small adjustments to the right hand has indeed changed the tone of my guitar for the better.

Now if I had tone like Randy Beavers all would be good with world and the planets would all have to be lined up for that to happen. :-)

Regards and happy holidays