What makes each of us unique in the sound we get, and why is it when we play someone else’s guitar it sounds different than when they play it?

Most will agree tone begins with the hands, so I will confine my thoughts only to that which comes in contact with the strings. (hands, bar and picks)

LEFT HAND:

1. Amount of downward pressure exerted on the bar.

2, Weight of the bar.

3. Mass of the bar.

4. Bar Alloy.

5. Diameter of the bar.

6. Bar vibrato manipulation.

7. Weight distribution on the bar across the strings.

8. Bar weight manipulation when changing positions.

9. Finger weight of middle, ring, and little finger on strings behind bar.

10. Spread distance of the fingers trailing the bar.

11. Finger placement when gripping the bar.

12. Tightness of the bar grip.

RIGHT HAND:

1. Finger positioning relative to distance from the pickup.

2. Finger pick material.

3. Finger pick thickness.

4. Angle of attack on the finger picks when entering the strings.

5. Pick depths on fingers and thumb.

6. Distance thumb is moved away from the fingers.

7. Material and thickness of thumb pick.

8. Weight distribution of the right hand on the strings.

9. Amount of “pull” pressure exerted on the finger picks.

10. Amount of “push” pressure exerted on the thumb pick.

11. Placement of the picks into the strings.

12. Depth in which the picks go into the strings.

Each element listed (and I’m sure more will be added) could be a topic of discussion while trying to analyze, evaluate and reach a general consensus.

ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL, the tone starts with the hands.

It isn't about whether two different guitars will sound the same, it's about why the same guitar will sound different, when played by different players.

10. Spread distance of the fingers trailing the bar.

This is one I hadn't been considering,
and realize I should have...
Even after seeing a player or two playing behind the bar.
Thank you!

Jim, if the list Reece gave us is NOT
all in consideration,
the inherant resonant and electrical properties can be decicively changed
by the players ineptitude. Or finese.

Instruments (+ amps, pedals, etc, in combination)
have a tambor of their own
BUT it is how you draw out that
possibilities of tone,
that is in consideration here.

Reese's point is (if I understand correctly): on a given guitar, what defines someone's tone, which is different from the tone someone else would get, playing the same guitar?

Why does Jay Dee sounds like Jay Dee on his emmons, while there's many other people playing similar guitars, but no one sounds quite like him?

I however respectfully disagree with you in that I believe most any instrument in the hands of a gifted player has the propensity to have a tone which is wide ranging and acceptable to most.

I further believe, depending on the player, any specific instrument has the distinct possibility of becoming unidentifiable relative to the inherent basic tone fundamentals/characteristics, which can be attributed only to the hands.

David D....I appreciate you participating in this discussion and your comments.

Jimmie M....Thank you for your "vote" of confidence.

I think these are all essential issues to anybody seriously interested in developing "tone". He said "Most will agree tone begins with the hands, ..." Of course, there are other factors, but I think it's hard to argue with this statement.

[This message was edited by Dave Mudgett on 19 November 2006 at 11:05 AM.]

There's no doubt other factors come into play, however I believe identifying the basic elements of tone such as we are discussing can change all other related factors which may be introduced.

Jay G....I believe the amp settings can effect the hands, and sub-consciously force the hands of the player to seek the desired tone.

However, if the player layed down a steel [or guitar] track with 4 other musicians, and then I used the EXACT same gear with the same settings,with the same musicians on the same song,and then I recorded a track,using the same licks and fills, you WOULD hear a tonal difference over the course of the song because of the many observations Reece conveyed... I also saw heard the video in question and the various players DID sound different, but the basic instrument tonality remained intact...

Here's an interesting personal side note... I had a Fender 400 I got rid of because I didn't like its playability, and my Carter sounded very similar... I bought a Willy Keyless with a firebreathing 19.5 K pickup... Other steel players told me "it sounded like an old ZB or Fender'... I now have an old Bud that sounds like my Fender, Willy,and Carter did before them....Thats because its the same guy is playing them...

Reece, I never said that...nothing remotely CLOSE to that.

Again, I think people are talking apple and oranges.

We could have a discussion about gear, it's valid, and of course is a major part of how people sound. I think that's where Jim and Kevin H are going.

But the original post was about one's technique, touch, whatever you wanna call it, which -- all gear consideration aside -- makes each player's voice unique.

These are two completely unrelated -- yet indispensible -- elements of tone.

Tone is something that happens BETWEEN your hands and your guitar.

Specific guitar + Specific hands = specific tone.

This thread is about the hands part.

[This message was edited by Stephan Franck on 19 November 2006 at 01:36 PM.]

Db

ps

maybe if I buy LDG it will make me have a monster Lloyd tone??

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"Promat"
~when tone matters~ www.promatsteelguitars.com

It's nice that these thoughts are catalogued for future reference, and that beginning players can be shown that there are different ways of getting different sounds out of a guitar. It should be a "no brainer".

The best way to get the best sound out of 'em is to PLAY one.

Also not to be too confused by things that stand in the way. Like getting too involved in complex explanations or arguments over intangibles and getting sucked into personality cults of the lukewarm.

I dunno. A lot of things are becoming clearer apon revisiting my long neglected 6 string studies.

I made a lot of mistakes becoming a 'steel player'. Mainly not "playing dangerously", and taking too many peoples' suggestions for things that I should have done for myself.

I don't have the time to do it on 6 string. For better or worse.

I found a guitar I liked, tuned it and I'm PLAYING it live and in public every chance I get.

I suppose there are all those "tone variables", but I think I'd better be the only one that decides what I do for me.

I know how it will work out at this point.

EJL

My motivation for this thread was to explore and solicit different ideas concerning the dynamics of each element relative to the hands only.

Jim S....I'll stick with my response to you and respectfully submit it was indeed clear.

Fred S....Thank you for your input and comment concerning the show I played in Dallas years ago.

Stephan F....You are of course right in that comparing apples and oranges is not relative to my original intent of discussing only the elements of the hands.

We can all agree there are more dynamics relative to tone than the hands, however other things are not relavent to my original comment.

Note that he said "tone begins with the hands". Not that tone is ONLY in the hands...BIG difference, in my opinion Let's contain our discussion to his original premise. Everyone can benefit from better hand technique, no?

I do agree with that statement. The better developed the hands are, the better the guitar can be "controlled" to produce the desired result. We all are individuals, though. Each hand is slightly different and thus, some items in Maurice's list could be more difficult for one player to perfect than another. Still, each of those parameters can be maximized to produce the best outcome for each person.

Each of the listed items could benefit from a thorough discussion of it's own. If we could, indeed, collectively identify each item's characteristic traits, we would be helping not only ourselves improve, but all the new steelers who read this Forum.

I worked a bit with Buddy Charleton and he has codified most all of the issues you bring up in your list in his own way. I spent 2 hours with him one time doing nothing but working on how to hold the bar. One of the most productive lessons of my life.

Has anybody noticed differences between how Charlton gets his sound and how Lloyd Green gets his ? I don't know enough about how Lloyd does it to compare but it looks very different to me. I am only interested in the hands part. For purposes of discussion lets leave the gear stuff to another thread.

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Bob
upcoming gigs
My Website

Left hand

quote:

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12. Tightness of the bar grip.

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The players that have a tone that I like and have checked out tend to barely grip the bar at all. They treat it like a violin bow. A relaxed and controlled strength. I went up to Jimmy Day at a gig after a tune and had him show me exactly how he held the bar. He seemed to be using almost no muscles yet he could completely control the bar. Buddy Charleton is the same and so is Joe Wright.

What I noticed over the yaers as my left hand has gotten more relaxed is that the overtones ring more even and clear.

Mike,
Buddy had me sorta wave the bar slowly on the neck until I was letting it fly across the room. Then he said Thats it ! The bar should feel like that in your hands. Keep that feeling and you got it. Don't worry about dropping the bar. That part comes easy.

There is more to it but that is basicly it.

It is very similar to one of Joe Wright's left hand lesson DVDs.

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Bob
upcoming gigs
My Website

[This message was edited by Bob Hoffnar on 19 November 2006 at 06:08 PM.]

quote:

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nothing but working on how to hold the bar. One of the most productive lessons

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------------------
Bob
upcoming gigs
My Website

quote:

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barely grip the bar at all

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I maintain you don't change "tone" with your hands. You can change attack and do things Reece mentioned, which you'll note I agreed with him about - I just do not agree "tone" is in the hands. A lot of other things are, but not tone. As has ben said before, Buddy Emmons playing a 400 isn't going to sound like Buddy Emmons playing a Zum, and he sure doesn't change his hands from guitar to guitar. Reece playing a Stringmaster is going to is going to have a different tonality than Reece playing a Ric.

As far as this:

"I however respectfully disagree with you in that I believe most any instrument in the hands of a gifted player has the propensity to have a tone which is wide ranging and acceptable to most."

I never stated anything about that one way or the other.

I will now - I think the statement is true. I also think it has no relationship to "the tone is in the hands". If it did, you'd have to say "I believe most any instrument in the hands of a gifted player has the propensity to have a tone identical to every other instrument he/she plays." Which is, of course, false.