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Topic: Cor`s Problem
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Ron Steenwijk Member From: Greensburg,PA
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posted 06 October 2004 01:22 AM
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IMHO it has nothing to do with languageproblems.Like Crowbear said before... the Dutch do know several languages. If there has been a payment towards Emmons made by Cor they should deliver the Steel.However......Cor does not want the Guitar anymore.That's his good right. I would do the same if a builder exceeds his delivery agreement by several months.The only thing that Emmons or another builder can do is keep the downpayment and refund the rest of the money. I don't know how these things are handled in The U.S.A but overhere in The Netherlands people can withdraw there payment at any time if they want to.The only thing that has to be paid is the downpayment. The people overhere are protected by the law in such cases. However if the customer has made a legal transaction and signed the required papers they are liable to this agreement. Both the customer and the salesman have to obey these rules. Ron Nikaro SD10 4x6[This message was edited by Ronald Steenwijk on 06 October 2004 at 01:30 AM.] |
David L. Donald Member From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand
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posted 06 October 2004 06:09 AM
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Ron clearly your english is MUCH better than Cor's I have found almost all the Dutch have great english.. but not ALL.I love going over there. Amsterdam is a real fun town. I saw Candy Dulfer at Melkweg last time: great show. |
Eric West Member From: Portland, Oregon, USA
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posted 06 October 2004 07:21 AM
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Ronald.Sometimes americans don't put their thoughts together very well either. Our language and dialects leave room for as much unclarity, or outright deception as any, and more than most. English is a language devised to take things from people without them knowing how it happened. Ask any indian. In this case. Things we don't know: Whose name was on the two checks. Whether it was "Emmons Guitar Co". Who cashed the Checks? Who endorsed them? Where were these checks sent? Which bank cashed them? "mother of Rebecca cashed checks, has money and gave to them" is a pretty piss poor description of a $4500 situation in any language. Any cab driver in Amsterdam could put it more clearly than the respondent. I've been in Holland and found many kinds of language barriers, dialects. Also I have found in my dealings over the years that often people can feign minimal understanding of a language to keep from explaining all the pertainant details. For instance. A check could have been sent to anybody here, cashed by anybody, and never have come anywhere near the Emmons Guitar Co. It could have been sent to a friend, or several people here could have tried cashing several checks made out to god knows who until they finally "hit". Kind of a "free money transfer" Of course, the bill would be picked up by either the bank or the company, unless nobody cares to "write it off". We've seen dozens of "offshore check cashing scams" here. I know I have. Absent the pertainant information I mentioned: Full name of the Payee, Full Name of the Endorser, Bank on which the checks were drawn, Bank that cashed them, and address to which they were sent, I nor anybody else, however well meaning onlookers can't make any sense out of this situation. I certainly can't, and I speak pretty good "american". The information I mentioned is pretty easy to type ( or have translated and typed) and pass on. It's absolutely imperitive. The AG will tell him the same thing. I'm outa here. EJL[This message was edited by Eric West on 06 October 2004 at 09:32 AM.] |
John Davis Member From: Cambridge, U.K.
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posted 06 October 2004 11:03 AM
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You guys that are interested in an update here it is............... I have spoken to Cor on the phone and I can tell you that his spoken English is perfectly clear and easy to understand, his written English may leave a little to be desired, and for that reason I have advised him not to post here, it serves no usefull purpose having him "wound up" by people, and IMO the guy has already lost enough.If you cannot be supportive and wish to question his integrity further,Go start your own topic! The bottom line remains-He has paid the money-He has a reciept-And nothing else!!! As far as progress is concerned, there is very little, I have spoken to The Consumer protection Dept.and they do not appear to have any "teeth" In Burlington (unless they get a whole lot more complaints) Re. The Emmons Co. So I have contacted a local Burlington lawyer and am awaiting his response as to whether or not he can help Cor. I have seen Cor`s receipt for the money and the letter from the AG`s office that has drawn no response from the Emmons Co.to date.New people are getting drawn into this topic as , seeing it for the first time, they are asking Cor the same questions over and over again!! Go back over the previous topics on this case and you will see he has answered all the questions!!!!! You all have no idea how hard it is to start litigation 3000 miles away, just to find a lawyer is a major job at that distance, luckily I speak reasonable English, and a little American so I am just trying to help a fellow forumite--------lets just wait a while and see what happens, I am sure there are good people out there that will bump this topic until its resolved!!!!! Something we can all agree on We all love the Emmons name, Don`t we??? JD.  |
Ron Steenwijk Member From: Greensburg,PA
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posted 06 October 2004 12:24 PM
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JohnI hope that you can be of some help to him. However...this is a free forum..and if someone has something to say about a post or a topic he or she should have his or her chance to do so.Maybe there are some members (like me for example)that are new to this forum.That does not take away their right to speak. Don't get me wrong John i am not attacking you in any way. |
Farris Currie Member From: Ona, Florida, USA
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posted 06 October 2004 12:37 PM
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THANKS RON,I WAS ABOUT TO SAY THE HELL WITH IT. JUST BECAUSE I FEEL A CERTAIN WAY,DON'T MAKE IT RIGHT!!AND I'D LIKE TO KNOW MORE ABOUT THE DEALERSHIP,MABE THERES A LOTS MORE TO THIS THAN MEETS THE EYE??????????? CAN'T BELEIVE A DEALER WOULD PAY RETAIL. JUST MY OPINION!!!!!!!!!I GONE farris |
Cor Muizer Jr Member From: The Netherlands/europe
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posted 06 October 2004 01:08 PM
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well for the last time guys here on the forumpeter that wrote that i was a dealer, i can tell you i never was a dealer from emmons. so stop speculate these things and peter i was sending you a personal email where i stated that i wasn't a dealer cor
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Stephen Gambrell Member From: Ware Shoals, South Carolina, USA
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posted 06 October 2004 05:28 PM
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"We all love the Emmons name, Don`t we???"I CERTAINLY DO!!!!!! |
Eric West Member From: Portland, Oregon, USA
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posted 06 October 2004 06:36 PM
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Myself, I'm more of a "Sho~Bud guy"..  EJL |
tbhenry Member From: Chattanooga /USA
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posted 07 October 2004 06:16 PM
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John,A word of thanks to you for trying to resolve this matter on Cor's behalf. Please keep us posted on the results of the Burlington lawyer. |
John Davis Member From: Cambridge, U.K.
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posted 14 October 2004 12:29 AM
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TB Thanks for your interest in the topic, just to update I sent the relevant details to a Burlington lawyer ( the only one I could find at that time that responded to me) and all has gone quiet!! I don`t know why but I am amazed at how difficult it is to get legal representation local to Burlington. Here in the uk you will find a solicitors office on nearly every street corner we are overun with them!! I know a lot of you guys do not want to get involved with this directly, but if one of you could come up with a lawyer (that does email) and would be interested in this, you could email me the info. it does not have to go via the forum! My sympathy for Cor grows by the day when I see what he is up against here! And yes I have tried the lawyer refferal service to no avail. I have no idea how big is Burlington NC but from the amount of legal help available I reckon it must be three shops,a steel guitar factory, and a bus stop!!!!!!  |
John Davis Member From: Cambridge, U.K.
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posted 14 October 2004 12:57 AM
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This is the sort of thing I have recieved.............Information Regarding Your Request It has now been three (3) days since you submitted your request for Collections. We wanted to share with you the information below that we have collected from the businesses that have received your request. To date, there have been 0 lawyers that have responded to your request. Your request is scheduled to expire in 4 days. If you do not receive any lawyer responses by that date we will provide you with helpful suggestions. Your Sign In Information To sign in to your account, use the email address and password below. Please be sure to keep them in a convenient place, as you will need them to submit future requests. In addition, to viewing email responses, you may view all responses from your portfolio.
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Richard Sinkler Member From: Fremont, California
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posted 14 October 2004 02:57 AM
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Bottom line is that he paid for a guitar that he never got. Unfortunately for him, there probably isn't a lawyer in the world that would want to help him. There's not enough money for the attorney to make. Also, don't expect the Attorney General to give a damn. He's got a hell of a lot more things to worry about than some foriegner who got screwed for the measly amount of $4500.00. That letter he sent Emmons was probably just a courtesy letter and they have no intention of following through. By the way, I got this info from a lawyer that I went to high school with and showed him this topic. There's no way he would touch this case.------------------ Carter D10 9p/10k, NV400
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CrowBear Schmitt Member From: Ariege, - PairO'knees, - France
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posted 14 October 2004 05:03 AM
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a French steeler called me askin' me to help him get a D10 he considered getting in touch w: Emmons Co about ordering one after i told him about this thread, he got the message i did suggest that he could get an Emmons from SGN or other good dealers or right here in "Buy & Sell"
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David L. Donald Member From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand
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posted 14 October 2004 09:37 AM
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As just noted... It would certainly make ANY steeler in Europe think twice about putting a deposit down with Emmons at the present time.Like it or not the lost revenue on ONE instrument, by being obdurate, is likely to be less expensive than just biting the bullit and dealing with the problem. Even if it is ONLY for PR reasons. Maybe Emmon's Co. doesn't care about international sales? The lawyers would likely cost half the cost of the steel, but the on going public ill will will last for a LONG time in some quarters. Just ask MSA's staff.... some wounds are darned hard to heal. What is $4,500 vs your good name. Regardless of whether hot tempers and mis-comunications caused the problem. You have on one side a little guy, on the other a a company. Which side do you think individuals are siding with? If Cor were to file in Small Claims Court he could present his evidence himself and get a fair hearing. I am NOT trying to hammer Emmons Co. but pointing out that the public IMPRESSION is changing, and not in their favor. That is the nature of a PR issue relative to ongoing international sales.
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Duane Marrs Member From: Madison, Tennessee, USA
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posted 15 October 2004 11:28 AM
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We would like to thank Cor for quickly clearing up what was an unfortunate misunderstanding. Cor was unaware of us not receiving payment on our parts and promptly returned them, since he wasn't building a guitar now. We hope the Emmons matter is resolved to both parties satisfaction, soon. Sincerely, Marrs Music |
John Davis Member From: Cambridge, U.K.
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posted 27 October 2004 01:17 AM
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This deserves a bump and a bump and a bump and a bump, at least until it is resolved and Cor gets his money back.......... Just in case somebody has not seen it!!!!!!!!!
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Erv Niehaus Member From: Litchfield, MN, USA
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posted 27 October 2004 07:56 AM
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Sometimes it's better just to let sleeping dogs lie. |
Farris Currie Member From: Ona, Florida, USA
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posted 27 October 2004 08:10 AM
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good morning ERV,your right,i know i'll get jumped on for this,but i bought a bad ford one time,and all the bad mouthing did not hurt ford one bit!!lots of people are being hurt here,and its not gonna help the situation one bit.I know people think that if you sling enough mud its gonna get better,well all the stuff that is said is hear say,and only cor,and Emmons knows the facts,I don't blame Ron for not getting in the middle of all this mess at all.I still say there is more to this than we all know about! other wise,Ron would just send cor a guitar, and that would be the end of that. Thats what i would do,build a guitar,even if it was good used parts,polished up,not much could be done,if guitar was right color,and looked new.then if refused,take that guitar and shove it.Thats what i would do. Don't jump on me!!!farris |
Gene Jones Member From: Oklahoma City, OK USA
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posted 27 October 2004 08:23 AM
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....(quote) "Sometimes it's better to let sleeping dogs lie".....  www.genejones.com [This message was edited by Gene Jones on 27 October 2004 at 08:24 AM.] |
John Davis Member From: Cambridge, U.K.
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posted 27 October 2004 09:25 AM
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Erv, do you mean doing nothing will get Cor`s money back??? I don`t think so! Farris have you got shares in the Emmons Co?? Where are a lot of people getting hurt?? As far as I can see ,Cor is the only one that is hurting! Fact.. He paid the money he has a reciept! (I have seen it!) Fact.. Emmons Co will not communicate with him (how does that make them look!??) Fact .. Emmons Co have not responded to the last two letters from the Attorney General`s office, and as far as I know they have not responded to the third letter either!! Am I the only one that see`s this as being wrong?? What happens if we all do nothing? answer..........NOTHING!!!!!!!!  |
Chris Schlotzhauer Member From: Colleyville, Tx. USA
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posted 27 October 2004 09:54 AM
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quote: What happens if we all do nothing?
I'm doing something about it. My new steel WON'T be an Emmons! I'm ordering a new Rains as soon as I save a little more cash. My descision is a direct result of this fiasco. Maybe Emmons could care less about losing my business, but if this lingers on this forum, others may follow. |
Rick McDuffie Member From: Smithfield, North Carolina, USA
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posted 27 October 2004 02:34 PM
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It is incomprehensible that Emmons has let this go on this long unaddressed. |
Danny Hullihen Member From: Harrison, Michigan
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posted 27 October 2004 03:20 PM
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I've been following this post since the beginning, and I've been very reluctant to post anything here for several obvious reasons. However, let me just say this. Cor's problem here is very real, and very ligitimate. He has not fabricated anything he has said here. Some have said there's another side of the story we're not hearing, and you are right, so here's the other side.Sometime ago Cor and I spoke on the phone about this, and in several emails. Being that I was an Emmons dealer, I told Cor that I would contact the folks at Emmons to see if I could perhaps help him in these regards in some way. I was hoping that maybe Ron would send me Cor's guitar to sell for him here at the store. I advised Cor that it would be very difficult to try to get $4500.00 for a standard mica D-10 Emmons, but I would try. Unfortunately, that couldn't happen, and here's why, or moreover, what I was told. When Cor became disabled and hence, couldn't play the guitar, he called Emmons and canceled his order. When that happened, Cor's order was pulled from the build list, even though it had already been paid for. They openly admit receiving the money from Cor in the amount of $4500.00. In order for Cor to receive a refund, this is what would have to happen, and exactly like this... Someone would have to place an order with Emmons for a guitar with the exact same color and set up as Cor had ordered, and at the same price. If and when that happens, they would then issue a full refund to Cor, but not until. I was told that this is the new policy at Emmons guitar, and that's the way it's going to be from now on. So guys, you can read into this anyway you want to, but this is the story, and what has happened here to Cor is very real. He paid for an Emmons guitar in full, he has received nothing in return. No guitar, no refund, no coorespondence from Emmons, NOTHING! This is all very sad, and to say that I feel bad for Cor would be a bit of an understatement. The easiest and cheapest route for Emmons to take would be to build a guitar for Cor, and send it to him, or to a reputable person who could perhaps sell it for Cor and help him recoup at least some of his costs. Of course, a full refund is what he truly deserves, especially considering the fact that there was no expenses incured for the Emmons Guitar Company. Unfortunately, or at least from what I've been reading here, it appears that they are not willing to do either. I'm quite sure Cor would certainly rather not have to contact officials here in the states for help on this matter. It isn't like he went to a casino and gambled away $4500.00, and is now crying about it. He sent his money in good faith for a product he never received, and apparently never will receive. So all you nay-sayers, don't be so hard on Cor about any of this. He is not the perpatrator, he is the VICTIM! I believe Cor has came to this community hoping for help and advice from us Americans, as there is little anyone could do from where he is at. Most of the folks posting here appear to have compassion for Cor, and I'm very happy to see that. However, those that don't obviously never had to walk a mile in this mans shoes, if you know what I mean? So there you have it. That's the other side of the story, just as was told to me by the folks at Emmons Guitar Company. |
John Macy Member From: Denver, CO USA
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posted 27 October 2004 03:27 PM
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Thanks for the info, Danny. It's very enlightening. Also unbeliveable that would be their stance on the issue. I will do everything in my power to steer people elsewhere. A sad ending for a great company... |
Larry Bell Member From: Englewood, Florida
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posted 27 October 2004 03:53 PM
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I agree, John Not exactly How to Win Friends and Influence People. We owe Danny a debt of gratitude for laying it out from his perspective. Thanks, Danny. Hope to see you next May if I can make it up from Florida.The arrogance of that business practice is absolutely astounding. What difference would it make what setup was on the guitar if they never built it????? That's what floors me. They are just refusing to do the right thing for a customer. If they think they are as stable in their reputation as they were when Big Ron was there, they have another thought coming. They've lost me as a customer, but they'd already done that by refusing to make a 12-string anyway. Sad indeed. It tarnishes the most recognized name in pedal steel guitar for the price of one guitar. ------------------ Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page 2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps [This message was edited by Larry Bell on 27 October 2004 at 04:01 PM.]
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Fred Jack Member From: Bay City Texas
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posted 27 October 2004 04:01 PM
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Danny, I appreciate your post!I,too, have been laying back out of this but I now have a couple of wonderings. I wonder what Emmons policy was at the time of the placement of the order? Also,could Cor resubmit his order and get his guitar? And if so when? Then he could deliver it to a reputable dealer and recover partial proceeds.He definately is getting the weenie!I would actually like to see Lashly (?) fold over this! Regards, Fred Jack ( let the flames begin!) |
Jim Phelps Member From: just out of Mexico City
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posted 27 October 2004 04:05 PM
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.[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 17 November 2004 at 07:04 PM.] |
Steve Frost Member From: Scarborough,Maine
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posted 27 October 2004 04:20 PM
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Anybody still "yawning"? This is outrageous![This message was edited by Steve Frost on 28 October 2004 at 06:32 AM.] |
Doug Rolfe Member From: Indianapolis, IN
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posted 27 October 2004 04:51 PM
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This is real disappointment to say the least and then to have posters make this seem as a yawner is sad. The facts are in. Come on Emmons, be realistic and make this right. You are too small a company to have such rigid rules as an exact order, etc. to qualify for settling this issue. Ron, I don't know you and you don't know me, but this is definitely going to hurt you and your business. My father was a successful business man and he said the customer is always right. This makes for a good business motto and should apply in our small world here. The longer this goes on, the more damage will be done to a former great steel guitar company. Wake up Emmons!! |
Joey Ace Sysop From: Southern Ontario, Canada
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posted 27 October 2004 05:24 PM
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Thank you so much for your post Danny. As you know, I was aware of this situation, but kept my promise of confedentiality.Knowing the facts, it only hurt me more to see some of our members insulting Cor. I know that your explanation is not hear-say, but based on a direct conversation with Ron. It's very sad, but very true. Thanks again. |
Jerry Roller Member From: Van Buren, Arkansas USA
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posted 27 October 2004 05:42 PM
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It appears to me the company is trying to do the right thing according to their company policy and Cor needs help, so in a sense both parties need a way out. Could we as Forum members place the order for the exact guitar and let it be delivered to one of our members and then sell it for Cor? If I understand correctly it is already paid for, is that not right? Jerry[This message was edited by Jerry Roller on 27 October 2004 at 05:48 PM.] |
Jim Cohen Member From: Philadelphia, PA
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posted 27 October 2004 06:01 PM
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OK, so why doesn't Cor just reinstate his order for the same exact guitar at the same exact price and take delivery on it, then sell it? He's already paid for it, so wouldn't have to shell out any more money for it (or would he still have to pay shipping?) I realize he might not get all of his money out of it, but then again, he'd probably come reasonably close to it. |
tbhenry Member From: Chattanooga /USA
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posted 27 October 2004 06:08 PM
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This is so immoral. so unjust, so unchristian and so unAmerican. My next guitar will NOT be an Emmons Lashly! |
Eric West Member From: Portland, Oregon, USA
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posted 27 October 2004 06:53 PM
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Not that it's important, but I see.Deciding to have "New Policies" or maybe even "new projected costs and/or waiting periods (outside of a reasonably small percentage)" that change the companies' liability to produce as originally agreed is massively arrogant if not illegal after the checks are cashed. In this case, you change things after the money has changed hands, it's not cool. In this case It's going to cost the company more than ten times $4500, not that it will do Cor any good. My thanks to Mr Davis for making Cor's point more understandable to us "street americans'. When it was pulled from the "Build List" the check should have been cut and sent. Deductions for check cost, minimal office cost, and postage would be reasonable. Like maybe 5 bucks. Any policy taking money for no consideration, new or not is illegal in any state that I am aware of. Best thing for a business to do is do what they say they are going to do, when they say they are going to do it, and DO IT. Somehow I see a dying, desperately struggling business. That's the clear sign they are putting out by taking money for a guitar taken off the "build list". I wouldn't order anything from them, even COD.  EJL |
Johnny Harris Member From: Texas, USA
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posted 27 October 2004 07:39 PM
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I have pevioulsly defended Emmons in some former posts. I am sorry to say that after reading Danny's post, I can no longer support this company and their policy. First, to require full payment in advance of building is ridiculous.If all their customers would refuse to pay more than a reasonable down payment, they would change that policy, or go down the tube. Second, It sounds like Cor ordered a pretty standard guitar, and I have to wonder how many of this exact spec. guitar the company has already built since the order was canceled. Next, since the guitar wasn't already in production, the Emmons company lost nothing in the cancelation.Matter of fact, it seems like they gained forty-five hundred bucks. Then to kick a man who is down on his health is just too much for me. |
Joey Ace Sysop From: Southern Ontario, Canada
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posted 27 October 2004 07:42 PM
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quote: " Could we as Forum members place the order for the exact guitar and let it be delivered to one of our members and then sell it for Cor?"
I don't understand, Jerry. Are you saying we should collect $4500 send and send it to Emmons? |
Rick McDuffie Member From: Smithfield, North Carolina, USA
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posted 27 October 2004 07:57 PM
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Cor, tell them to build it and ship it to Tarheel Music, 329 E. Market St. Smithfield, NC 27577. I'll sell it for you, for as much as I can get for it, and I'll send you 100% of the receipts. I CANNOT guarantee that I can get $4500, but I will give you all that it brings. There are numerous people on this Forum that will vouch for my personal and business integrity, and my objective is only to help you and bring about some resolution to this mess.[This message was edited by Rick McDuffie on 27 October 2004 at 08:00 PM.] |
Jerry Roller Member From: Van Buren, Arkansas USA
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posted 27 October 2004 08:15 PM
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No Joey, that is not what I said. I said it was my understanding the guitar is paid for and according to what I read in an earlier post, an identical order needs to be placed and they will build it No need to pay again. Jerry |
Eric West Member From: Portland, Oregon, USA
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posted 27 October 2004 08:16 PM
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And then it would go back on the "Build List"?Wasn't it on there for a while to begin with? Barring there wasn't a "New Policy" in the interim.. Maybe like a $4500 "Relisting Charge"... EJL[This message was edited by Eric West on 27 October 2004 at 08:18 PM.] |