Policies and even contracts have to pass a test of reasonability in most civil courts. Not just legality. A person cannot sign away rights, nor can a company revoke them with arbitrary policies, regardless of the size of the print.

Few states differ from that.

In fact in Louisiana, if you buy something for less than half of it's real value, the sale can be cancelled after the money and property has changed hands, if the seller changes his/her mind.

The court system however is not going to help out Cor as readily as a guy living here. That's too bad.

Maybe keeping this alive on the Forum without the subject being locked and banned for degenerating into acrimony will help Cor more than anything.

Hopefuly the Sysop will allow the necessary bandwidth.

b0b's a pretty nice guy for the most part..

I am aware of the rules over at your Country and we have the same.Our contracts and policy's are also tested and must be legalized by our court.We call it the chamber of commerce.They have the possibility to close people down and order the manufactor to refund the money.But they will only do this if a court can't come to a verdict.
I think that this is the same in America.

And i can understand that an American has more rights in such matters then a European that buy's something in America.
And vice versa.
Totally understandable....

And i also hope that b0b will give us the bandwith to keep this alive.

Ron

I may be wrong here, but I do not see anything understandable in foreigners having less "rights" than citizens in any given country, regarding the eventually occuring legal issues in connection with any business.
If this is the truth you might as well tell people in Europe or elsewhere that if they're dealing with Americans in America they shouldn't be surprised if they're F.....!
Is that reasonable, or even the truth???

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Klaus Caprani

MCI RangeXpander S-10 3x4

No offence but do you really believe that the Danish law would do the same for me as they would do for you in such cases?

I don't think so.
I wish it were true..

Ron

Provided that you went through the normal legal channels, at least theoretically, yes!
Ofcourse it's a must that you are able to proof that you actually have a case, exactly as in all other circumstances when the justice-system gets involved. That just might be the problem in this case, or that's a least what I choose to believe.
By the way. I'm buying my strings from Germany , though mostly for customs reasons.

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Klaus Caprani

MCI RangeXpander S-10 3x4

I think that is the only problem in each case.Foreigners are not that well tought in law and policy's of another country.

The Dutch people are people that can be tricked.Once we made an oral agreement we come to believe that everything is settled.
Just because an oral agreement is legaly valid in our country.

Ron

Nikaro SD10 4x6

Non-written agreements are just as valid as written agreements in this country as well (and I guess even in the US). The only problem (and that goes for Netherlands too) is that if you've got no witnesses they're damn' hard to proof in a court of law.
I love the thought of "A man is a man and a word is a word" very much too, but thanks to lowlife frauds it often can't be lived out. Too sad!

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Klaus Caprani

MCI RangeXpander S-10 3x4

Getting to the subject at hand, a non-citizen -- let's say somebody from Europe -- has exactly the same rights in the USA as a USA citizen in regard to seeking a remedy at law with respect to a business transaction.

However, the real issue here is "jurisdiction." From the facts of the matter as I understand them, jurisdiction would be in the state of North Carolina or at the very least somewhere in the USA. This is because Cor essentially went to the Emmons company and offered to purchase a product.

As an illustration of the contrary case, if the guitar had been purchased from an Emmons representative in Europe, or maybe in response to an advertisement which offered to sell guitars and which ad was published in Europe, then the jurisdiction would quite possibly lay in Europe.

Similarly, if a US citizen contacted a European company directly, and placed an order for a product to be built and shipped to the USA, and then had problems such as those alleged here, then that US citizen could not seek legal remedies through a US court because jurisdiction for the matter would lay in the European courts.

So, in this case, it's ALMOST certain that the jurisdiction is in the USA and more specifically in NC.

That means that in order to seek legal remedies against Emmons, Cor has to do so through the NC courts.

I'm not familiar with the NC court system, and I don't think anyone has suggested this, but could it be possible that Cor could go through a small claims court. Most states have such courts and there are limits on the amount of damages sought etc., but the costs are much less. Also, it's possible that somebody could represent Cor on his behalf due to the fact of the distances involved.

Also, maybe somebody could, on Cor's behalf, contact a legal clinic such as one operated through a law school (there are 5 law schools in NC, last time I checked), which typically take cases for free in circumstances where the client is in a difficult situation or cannot pay etc.

Just a few thoughts.

If so, and if a judgement is reached in Cor's favor, then that judgement would most likely have full faith and credit in the NC courts.

I think we share some thoughts.

Tom

I think that Emmons has a dealer overhere in The Netherlands but i don't know if he is jumping up and down to take this thing on.

Ron

Nikaro SD10 4x6

[This message was edited by Ronald Steenwijk on 30 October 2004 at 11:41 AM.]

In other words, if a company chooses to establish itself in a given country (such as through establishment of a dealer network in that country) then the company makes itself accessible to the legal system of that country.

So, what I am saying is that if there is enough facts to establish that Cor can seek remedy through the courts of the Netherlands, then he could do so. In such a case, Emmons would have two choices: 1)defend itself; or, 2) face a default judgement.

You might have something here.

Ron

Bob

[This message was edited by Bob Wood on 30 October 2004 at 12:52 PM.]

quote:

---

It sounds to me that the reason Emmons haven't spoken up so far is probably because...

---

In short, these guys are crucifying them, rightfully or wrongfully.

Until I hear their side of the story, and they convince me they are right, one couldn't get me to buy a new Emmons if drug through a fire pit.

fred

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The spirit be with you!
If it aint got a steel, it aint real

Now I think I'm going to get another brand.

Tommy

Now I think I'm going to get another brand.

Tommy

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Klaus Caprani

MCI RangeXpander S-10 3x4

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Klaus Caprani

MCI RangeXpander S-10 3x4

quote:

---

What if they sell out to another guitar builder who has money, or access to plenty of money to take that company and turn it around?...

---

Ii may be too late for that to help. Once a brand name is tarnished by bad dealings, it seems to take decades to erase the ill-will that has spawned. And indeed, for some people, those feelings never go away. Words I still see here occasionally about another manufacturer will certainly attest to that. I'm certain that a lot of us would have liked to have see an Emmons Guitar Company presence here on the Forum, and I can't help but think that, if they do have some sort of "problem" right now, their absence here has been a contributing factor.

b0b doesn't have much tolerance for Pro-American rhetoric or patriotic jingoism here.

We're working on him..

I wish I had the money to buy the Emmons Co.
I love their products!!
But if they are in a bind I would`ent mind putting up the few bucks for their forum membership if only to find out when Cor`s guitar is going to be ready!!!!!!!

Meanwhile : Silence, stonewalling, circling the wagons, lawyers advice etc.
= PR catastrophy.

Ah, the power of an open forum to provide information and air disputes,
rather than leaves things in a silent nether world.

Some one said one bad apple spoils the bunch.
How many of us buy the bunch of grapes with the one moldy one on top,
VS. look for another bunch all in good condition, just in case the one bad grape has spoiled the bunch.

I am worried that I will be a good grape sitting 22 grapes away from a moldy one, that no one wants,

And soon headed for the dust bin from guilt by association. Along with dozens of other good grapes.

Metaphorically speakling of course.

6 degrees of separation, with a 50 / 50 chance... not odds I like.

Just as Cors problem, and reflectively Emmons by Lashley's,
is magnified by a information delivery service,
we here, are also magnified.
And of course we here on the forum AND in the achhmm "real world", need to be circumspect in our pronouncements,
AND silences.

You can send a SCREAMINGLY loud... message with aquiecent silence.
As well as a high decible, on target, rant.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 31 October 2004 at 06:06 AM.]

quote:

---

"And just like Lloyd Green sometimes responds through a proxy, so could they."

---

They have when they emailed a statement to b0b requested Cor's original post be closed.

What in the heck is the mother of Rebecca doing cashing a check and then forwarding it to her when the check went to the "address they settled at"?

I can't sort this out due to the lack of response from Emmons, (They are not member and cannot post here} Have they not in the past sent e-mail to Bob and had that information posted on the forum. (I may be wrong about this).

There are probably people on this forum that are Emmons dealers and I am quiet sure that they have probably contacted Emmons and I for one would like to hear what they found out.

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Tom Callahan
Emmons S-10
Nashville 400

[This message was edited by Tom Callahan on 31 October 2004 at 06:53 AM.]

Silence the talk and maybe it will all go away.
So they are reading this....
hhhmmmm. I bet this makes their shorts a bit damp.

I met Ron jr. very briefly at ISGC, and did NOT get the sense he wanted to sell me a guitar.
Not quite like W.C. Fields " go away boy you bother me." but...
certainly not what I would have expected.

I was in MANY stands there, and people were eager to help and let my try things,
but not oppressively so. Or just talk steel.

But I got the sense he thought all he needed was the name and it would sell itself.

In the other thread Bobbe explained why he stopped being a new Emmons/Lashley dealer. ... also quite telling.

I called Cor a few minutes ago and he stated that there is such a receipt.Let me just say that it is not my intention to kick someone while he is down.
But you wanted to see if there was such a receipt.
Look below

Ron

Nikaro SD10 4x6

[This message was edited by Ronald Steenwijk on 01 November 2004 at 01:27 AM.]

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JUST 'CAUSE I STEEL, DON'T MAKE ME A THIEF www.geocities.com/squire592001/jason.html

[This message was edited by John P.Phillips on 31 October 2004 at 08:06 AM.]

Ron

Next file a formal grievance with the chambe of commerce and the better business bureau in the local town where the company is located.

Next file a formal complaint with the business Licnesing (Iknow I spelled that wrong but I am in a hurry) and file a formal complaint with them. They have to power to revok or suspend the licnese of any company that is practicing unethical tactics.
I certainly wish you the best and hope that one of the orginzations can help you.

P.S. None of thes orginazations will cost you a dime to use.